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Is it time to get totalitarian?

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Reccesoldier

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Aboriginals are promising a summer of protest and the question of Quebec separation remains.  Is it time that the RoC tell these factions to get with the program or get out of our country?

By the way, out means out.  No sovereignty association, no right to the Canadian Dollar, Canadian Defence, Canadian Passport, No automatic place in NAFTA or NORAD.  Sink or Swim.

I’d like to see what the result would be… 

I could see Quebec becoming the France of North America, crippled economically and socially by socialist programs and values that are unattainable in any society. 

I wonder how long it would take for Aboriginal bands to establish property laws and start stringing up corrupt chiefs and band councils.

As for the rest of Canada I think we could all survive without them, prosper even without the Billions in bribes the Canadian Government pays both Quebec and Aboriginals.
 

Flip

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I’d like to see what the result would be… 

No you wouldn't.

Once divided a thing becomes infinitely divisible - P.E. Trudeau

Secessions based on ethnic nationalism have a very poor track record.

The potential for very grim fallout is very real although very few of us
will admit that.

I don't see any way at all to separate what was theirs (the boundary of old Quebec)
from what is ours ( northern Quebec) without some strife an economic loss.
The native population are in no way obliged to become part of the new Quebec.

Your idea of outlining some draconian terms in advance has merit.
Before the last referendum the separatists seemed to plan on having their cake
and eating it too.  They had no problem with the RoC covering the tab.
They should not be allowed to think for a second that it would be easy.

Now, if you wanted to kick Ottawa out of Canada I think you could rally some support! ;)



 
 

Cdn Blackshirt

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I think the Prime Minister should come right out and say that native "protests" are fine, but any blockades by anyone is a criminal offence and that there will be arrests.

The problem is by not being upfront about consequences, we actually invite the action.

It's beyond stupid and borders upon negligence....


Matthew.  ???



 

Reccesoldier

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Flip said:
No you wouldn't.

Once divided a thing becomes infinitely divisible - P.E. Trudeau

Secessions based on ethnic nationalism have a very track record.

The potential for very grim fallout is very real although very few of us
will admit that.

I don't see any way at all to separate what was theirs (the boundary of old Quebec)
from what is ours ( northern Quebec) without some strife an economic loss.
The native population are in no way obliged to become part of the new Quebec.

It got way too ugly in the Balkans - I don't want even to consider the possibility here.

Now, if you wanted to kick Ottawa out of Canada I think you could rally some support! ;)



 

I never said we would separate northern Quebec from the rest.  If they vote to separate they can have it all.  International law would most likely support the Quebecers on that point anyway.

I believe that Quebec separation and Naitive protests are two peas in a pod.  They are forms of blackmail, and we as a nation made a fatal flaw so long ago in giving into this bribery.  Like a sucessfull protection racket run by a street thug or schoolyard bully, Quebec and the Natives have been emboldened by their sucess and will push for more and more unless we as a nation stand up and say ENOUGH!

Don't get me wrong, I love this country and would hate to see it broken up but we all can recognize that there is only one way to deal with this and that is to stand up and say as a nation that we are all equal and we can not and will not allow any portion of this country either ethnic or cultural to claim any special status.  This is not Animal Farm, some are not more equal than others. Peace, order and good government is not achieved through threat intimidation and lawlessness.
 

Flip

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The problem is by not being upfront about consequences, we actually invite the action.

Yup! Read 'em the riot act. ( so to speak )
Make it clear what it will cost.

There are systems in place - work within Canadian law or go to jail.

If anyone else pulled that kind of crap, they would ruin their legal position.
The claim would become void as a result of the criminal activity.

I guess you could say the government has been to liberal. ;)
 
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What about all the people who dont want to seperate in Quebec?
The people in Montreal, the Anglophones in the Eastern Townships, the Natives in the north, the Frenchspeakers who love this country?
They are just SOL?
Why shouldnt the eastern townships be able to start their own country inside of Quebec if a majority of people there want it?
 

Flip

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That's why I mentioned the division of Quebec.

There is now way at all the Natives in the north will either move
or make nice with the new QuebecFrance.

There is no way at all a new Quebec France is going to
accomodate the needs of all of the other groups who are
not Quebecois.
 

Reccesoldier

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Fascist and Flip, the quick answer is yes... They are SOL.  It would be up to them to then begin their own succession from Quebec.  Legaly (international law) there is no alternative, just as there was no alternative for the Serbs living in the Krajina when Croatia was formed.

"Loyalists" of course would be welcome in Canada, along with all their money.  :)
 

FredDaHead

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Wow, so much "culturalism" (for lack of a better term) in this thread... Good thing you guys aren't talking about black people instead of Quebecois, you'd probably get in trouble.

I don't understand how people can even begin to compare Quebec separatism and Aboriginal protests. Separatism might be annoying and appear stupid to some who have no understanding of Quebec whatsoever, but (except for the FLQ) separatists have never resorted to outright criminal activities and violence against unarmed and uninvolved civilians to get what they wanted. The same cannot be said about Aboriginals; they have resorted to almost every criminal and violent act up to (and possibly including) murder.

Quebec separation, if it came to fruition after a referendum that was deemed "acceptable" by international observation teams (from the UN, say), would have grounding in international law and would be, for all intents and purposes, legal and the only problem would come from the negotiations about Crown possessions in Quebec and other such matters.

Aboriginal protests are about getting more and more money and rights above and beyond what the citizens of this country are entitled to, and generally about getting more than "The Man." They have no grounding in international and even national law, and indeed are criminals and outlaws who have to resort to violence because it is the only way to receive what they claim as theirs, as the law is against them.

Any comparison of the two is flawed and grounded in hatred and general disrespect for Quebec, and is actually going to push Quebec further away.
 

SiG_22_Qc

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I have native origins[among irish, french and scandinavians].

How indians affairs are dealt with is outrageons.

6 189 701  thousands of dollars 6 189 701 000$ Oh yeah you read this right, 6 billion dollars.

It rose by 364 163  000 compared to 2005-2006.

Right the *northern development is comprised

Here's the link:http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/est-pre/20062007/me-bd/ME-272_e.asp#page_276

By comparison the minister of defence:
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/est-pre/20062007/me-bd/me-325_e.asp
14,789,222,000$ 14.789 billion dollars.

So the indians affairs and *northern development* is roughly 40% of the military budget.

This proportion is outrageous, and they block highways in impunity?(Ontario and Quebec).
How exactly they deserve all that money? Are they paying more taxes???





 

FredDaHead

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SiG_22_Qc said:
This proportion is outrageous, and they block highways in impunity?(Ontario and Quebec).
How exactly they deserve all that money? Are they paying more taxes???

They pay taxes? Since when?
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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MOD POST

Folks, this is a divisive topic and be forewarned that I have no patience for any racist posts regarding these issues.

My post,

Reccesoldier said:
Aboriginals are promising a summer of protest and the question of Quebec separation remains.  Is it time that the RoC tell these factions to get with the program or get out of our country?

Who do you think is "our"?
..and just when did you consider it all right to toss out a majority of a race/culture by the actions of a minority?  Shades of Robert Mugabe..................
Sad, very sad.
 

Reccesoldier

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Bruce Monkhouse said:
MOD POST

Folks, this is a divisive topic and be forewarned that I have no patience for any racist posts regarding these issues.

My post,

Who do you think is "our"?
..and just when did you consider it all right to toss out a majority of a race/culture by the actions of a minority?  Shades of Robert Mugabe..................
Sad, very sad.

I'll tell you who I think "our" is, it is every single law abiding proud Canadian.  Every single one. 

I am tossing nothing and no one out.  My intent, my onus is that we as a nation must take the hard road.  For far too long we as a nation have tollerated every whining self-absorbed self-serving cretin who wants to subjigate the entire nation to satisfy their own particular special interest.  As a result we are slowly but surely giving the whole thing away.  My intent is to propose that we hack off a limb in order to save the patient, rather than have the patient die from an infected finger.

"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

For far too long silent majorities within Quebec and the Aboriginal communities have played quiet compatriot to the Separatists and wannabe terrorists in their midst.  They sit back and tisk, tisk while waiting with baited breath to see what the radicals within their societies will be able to rip from the rest of this nation.  They may claim to be loyal and law abiding but their inaction labels them as complicit apologists and worse.

 

FredDaHead

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Reccesoldier said:
For far too long silent majorities within Quebec and the Aboriginal communities have played quiet compatriot to the Separatists and wannabe terrorists in their midst.  They sit back and tisk, tisk while waiting with baited breath to see what the radicals within their societies will be able to rip from the rest of this nation.  They may claim to be loyal and law abiding but their inaction labels them as complicit apologists and worse.

I won't even adress the rest of your post as you have your head way too far up your ass.

However, there is a difference between approval of the demands of equal rights, respect, and generally getting treated fairly, and approval of separation and the general attitude of separatists. I can't speak for Aboriginals, but I'm damn glad at least one party up in Ottawa wants French-speaking Canadians to be respected and to have equal rights as English-speaking Canadians. I don't agree with separation and I time and time again voice my opposition to it, but that doesn't mean I don't think they have some legitimate claims.

An analogy: do you believe all Germans who were adults while Hitler was in power and didn't forcefully oppose him, were "complicit apologists and worse"? Should they all have been executed? Same question for Soviet citizens who didn't revolt against the regime.

All provinces are trying to get more than their fair share, deal with it, and stop with the overt culturalism, you're just making yourself sound like an ass.
 

Reccesoldier

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Freddy G said:
I won't even adress the rest of your post as you have your head way too far up your ***.

However, there is a difference between approval of the demands of equal rights, respect, and generally getting treated fairly, and approval of separation and the general attitude of separatists. I can't speak for Aboriginals, but I'm damn glad at least one party up in Ottawa wants French-speaking Canadians to be respected and to have equal rights as English-speaking Canadians. I don't agree with separation and I time and time again voice my opposition to it, but that doesn't mean I don't think they have some legitimate claims.

An analogy: do you believe all Germans who were adults while Hitler was in power and didn't forcefully oppose him, were "complicit apologists and worse"? Should they all have been executed? Same question for Soviet citizens who didn't revolt against the regime.

All provinces are trying to get more than their fair share, deal with it, and stop with the overt culturalism, you're just making yourself sound like an ***.

You know what they say about opinions.

Care to tell me just what rights French Canadians don't have?  You might want to check out this document to confirm your assumptions.  http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/Charter/index.html

Your analogy is weak.  Both German and Russian citizens in those cases were afraid for their lives, were seriously outnumbered, and would have been opposing the entire political and military complex of their nations.  That is not the case either on our reserves or in Quebec.  Unless of course you believe that Canadians would allow Radical Aboriginals to murder disenters or separatists to start using letterbombs.

 

FredDaHead

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Reccesoldier said:
You know what they say about opinions.

Care to tell me just what rights French Canadians don't have?  You might want to check out this document to confirm your assumptions.  http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/Charter/index.html

What about being served in one's language? Despite the official party line, it's incredibly hard to get service in French at government offices even in Eastern Ontario. However, English-speaking Canadians get all upset if they can't get served in English in Quebec. At the same time, French-speaking Canadians are told to just learn English if they're outside Quebec.

There has also been the recent elimination of some programs/offices dealing with language rights, which you might want to look up.

If you want laws to be applied to Aboriginals and you want to kick Quebec out because some people are pushing things a bit far... do you also want French-speaking Canadians to be able to have the laws applied? No, of course not, we don't need French-speaking Canadians, do we?
 

Reccesoldier

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Freddy G said:
What about being served in one's language? Despite the official party line, it's incredibly hard to get service in French at government offices even in Eastern Ontario. However, English-speaking Canadians get all upset if they can't get served in English in Quebec. At the same time, French-speaking Canadians are told to just learn English if they're outside Quebec.

There has also been the recent elimination of some programs/offices dealing with language rights, which you might want to look up.

If you want laws to be applied to Aboriginals and you want to kick Quebec out because some people are pushing things a bit far... do you also want French-speaking Canadians to be able to have the laws applied? No, of course not, we don't need French-speaking Canadians, do we?

See, this is the problem with laws, one must actually read what is written, not what one want's to be written...

20. (1) Any member of the public in Canada has the right to communicate with, and to receive available services from, any head or central office of an institution of the Parliament or government of Canada in English or French, and has the same right with respect to any other office of any such institution where

a) there is a significant demand for communications with and services from that office in such language; or
b) due to the nature of the office, it is reasonable that communications with and services from that office be available in both English and French.

There is NO guarantee of service in either official language unless there is deemed to be a "significant demand".  Only one province in this country is bilingual, New Brunswick.  The rest of us are just playing allong with the bilingual fairy-tale as told to us by the government.

Your lame attempt to label me as being anti-french will not work.  I am all for the bilingual nature of Canada (sham though it is) and I made bloody sure that my children grew up bilingual. 

What I am against is the Animal Farm nature of our current society.  Equality means equality for all, that's it that's all, no exceptions, no caveats, no backroom deals or special status or priviledge.

There is no I or ME in EQUAL 
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Reccesoldier said:
For far too long silent majorities within Quebec and the Aboriginal communities have played quiet compatriot to the Separatists and wannabe terrorists in their midst.  They sit back and tisk, tisk while waiting with baited breath to see what the radicals within their societies will be able to rip from the rest of this nation.  They may claim to be loyal and law abiding but their inaction labels them as complicit apologists and worse.

I seem to remember the band Chief at Deseronto speaking out very loudly about how wrong the blockade was......what should he have done, jumped on his horse and yelled "charge"?  Did you.....?


'Bout that letter bomb thing,
Quote,
Walter Leja, maimed for life while digging out a bomb in a Westmount mailbox on May 17, 1963.

Naaaw, your right, could never happen here.

 

FredDaHead

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Reccesoldier said:
There is NO guarantee of service in either official language unless there is deemed to be a "significant demand".  Only one province in this country is bilingual, New Brunswick.  The rest of us are just playing allong with the bilingual fairy-tale as told to us by the government.

And why is it that when I lived in Abitibi and there weren't enough English-speaking residents for them to have a separate high school and elementary school (it was all in one tiny school), they still expected to be served in English? They were hardly significant compared to the rest of the population. As well, many communities in English Canada are rather large and get no French service as they are not deemed significant.

The "significant demand" caveat is exactly the problem: those who make that decision can impose their ideas, as there is no definition of "significant." Even if the "significant" meant that ten people had to ask, it might still not happen, as people will more likely just deal with the situation than ask for change.

Your reference to the 1960s letterbombings is marginal at best; there has been no separatist violence since the early 70s. Or maybe French Canadians should accuse the English Canadians of destroying cities and killing innocent civilians. After all, that's what they did to Quebec City a while back.

As for labelling you anti-French, you've done that yourself by your discourse, I just pointed it out.
 

Reccesoldier

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Bruce Monkhouse said:
'Bout that letter bomb thing,
Quote,
Walter Leja, maimed for life while digging out a bomb in a Westmount mailbox on May 17, 1963.

Naaaw, your right, could never happen here.

Walter Leja was a soldier doing his job, hardly a civilian.
 
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