Injured recruits misdiagnosed then dropped by military

[1feral1]

Stuff-ups happen. Human error, etc. Yes in all walks of life.

I am sure if Bloggins hurt himself as a Walmart employee, it would not make the news.

Defence these days warrants a high profile no matter what negative story comes out.

The press love to hate us.


Cheers,

Wes

 

[Kat Stevens]

It is my personal firm belief that if I get injured on a course due to my physical inabilities it was my own fault for not being physically fit. I do not blame anyone else for that other then myself. If it was due to circumstance outside of my control that I was injured then that is a different story. However, to use the excuse of "training was too hard" is just a whole bunch of BS. I have no sympathy for those who did not take care of themselves and realised their limitations prior to getting into a physically demanding occupation.

Now, that being said. There are lots left to be desired with our current health care system in the CF. There are way too many doctors who don't really care about their patients and are just here to serve out their time. Prior to getting back to their civilian lives. I've had a less then satisfactory doctors on one of my courses at a base that I will not mention. I've generally found PAs to be more in tune with those with boots on the ground and provide and prescribe the best treatment to encourage and facilitate healing 90% of the time.

Anyways just my 0.02.

Soooo, all those guys who get injured on Pathfinder, Clearance Diver, Ranger, or any other hard charger course have only themselves to blame, and were weak and ill prepared?  Wow, been watching Patton a bit too much, lately?  Can't wait to see the bunch of fire pissing, ass in the grass medics you're gonna be leading.  Section attacks across the Fd Amb parking lot every morning.  Get a grip.

 

[scoutfinch]

*shrug* feel free to disagree with me.

I will disagree with you, having sustained a serious 2nd degree ankle sprain on CAP that had nothing to do with my level of fitness as I am a pretty serious distance runner.  I simply hit a pot hole while rucking.

Blaming the injured for their injury like that harkens back to a previous era in the CF when people were told to push through the pain... you know the old "pain is weakness leaving the body mentality" which is foolishness.

I struggled through CAP with my injury with the support of my staff who were very concerned about what I was doing.  One of my Sgts took me aside one day and told me that he really thought I was being too stubborn, I had already proven my mental toughness and I didn't have to prove it any more.  He told me that he was concerned because he had see too many damn fine soldiers end their careers because of untreated knee and ankle injuries.  

Although I didn't follow his advice because I was too damn short sighted to see beyond the end of course, looking back I realize that I made some fundamentally wrong decisions.  Fortunately, I have had no long term consequences because of my stupidity but I have resolved that I will never permit any of my subordinates to try to do the same thing I did.  I know that my 'retroactive awareness' may not be the height of leadership examples but I learned my lesson and I would hope to prevent others from making the same short-sighted decisions I did.

Leaders can never allow their people to train through injury without treatment.  That is just wrong.  Blaming the injured for their injury will cause them to not seek the medical attention they can require.  That isn't fostering toughness.  That is bullying... and there is no place for such conduct in leadership.

 

[benny88]

It is my personal firm belief that if I get injured on a course due to my physical inabilities it was my own fault for not being physically fit.

  Look again guys. I don't think MedTech meant sprained ankles.

 

[danchapps]

Ok, I have at least a nickel on this topic from first hand experience. To start with, my staff insisted on us going to the MIR, even if we thought it was a small cold. This stemmed from a previous course where they almost had a student die from an infection because he was too stubborn to get it looked at. So, my first trip to MIR was for what I thought was strep throat, they gave me sudeffed for this. I thought it was a bit strange to be getting a nasal decongestant for a problem with my throat (I also was worried about my in-ability to swallow half of my meal). So, after explaining my concern to the Med Tech, she was able to get me some Tylenol. She was almost as baffled at the prescription as I was. Soon after this, many others from my platoon wound up in the MIR with various conditions, and all wound up with sudeffed as well, so much so that we started joking about not going to MIR and just getting our own sudeffed. "Oh, you sprained your ankle, get out the sudeffed." That sort of thing.

My next trip was for my feet. While in Farnham on week 9 we were doing some patrol formation classes, and while running I planted my foot wrong, and feeling a sharp pain down the arch. I kept up with the training for the rest of the week, thinking nothing of it, even completing the BFT. After noticing I could barely walk on the one foot due to the pain I reluctantly went back to the MIR. Luckily I feel this diagnosis was a little more accurate. It turns out that I wound up with pronation in the feet (fallen arches). This was solved by simply doing some foot stretches throughout the day, and by wearing arch support insoles.

Next trip. During week 11 (first week after this past X-mas holiday) the temperature skyrocketed up to +13deg, causing St-Bruno to become more like a river. Between walking on the rough terrain, through stream like condition, pretty much a hell day for walking I did something to my heels. Again, I didn't notice until the weekend, and just dealt with the dis-comfort. Well, with the next week being the final ex of the course my body decides to fail. Well there was no way I was going to say "Oh, I'm sorry PO, my footsies really hurt, can I call my mommy while I'm on my way to the doc?" No, I sucked it up, and did all of the patrols (some reaching 9.6km return trip in length). However, I don't feel this was a bright idea. Yes, I finished the course with my platoon, however I'm still in pain from the injury. I am still seeing doctors about it, and am in physiotherapy. I admit, I did ask the Physiotherapist in St-Jean to limit my restrictions for the weekend because I wanted to be on parade, but I feel like limiting was a mistake. I don't know how long it will take to heal properly, however I feel if I addressed the issue sooner I may be in a better shape.

I guess what I'm saying is that the system is a double edged blade, and depending on what's wrong, and who you see to deal with the problem will determine how well of an outcome you have. Having seen it from both sides, I feel there could be some fixing up to be done, however, with the amount of staff they have vs. how many MIRC's they have come through, I'd say they are doing a good job there. My only fear is that others will mark me as a MIRC due to a legitimate injury.

 

[medaid]

Soooo, all those guys who get injured on Pathfinder, Clearance Diver, Ranger, or any other hard charger course have only themselves to blame, and were weak and ill prepared?  Wow, been watching Patton a bit too much, lately?  Can't wait to see the bunch of fire pissing, *** in the grass medics you're gonna be leading.  Section attacks across the Fd Amb parking lot every morning.  Get a grip.

Kat,

    First of all I wasn't inferring to those who are doing specialty courses. I was talking about those doing BMQ, as the topic and thread was referring to. Those who attend Pathfinder, CD, Ranger or sniper, or Para, or anything else already KNOW what they're getting themselves into, who are motivated individuals that have a relatively good level of fitness. I also said that there are factors not within your control when you get injured and those are a different story. Despite you quoting me, I guess you never actually read what I said.

Scout,

    Your pothole incident wasn't within your control either was it? So hence it's got nothing to do with your level of fitness right?

I have never said to blame all the injured for their own injuries. I am merely saying that those who are NOT fit, who are unable to do meet the basic standards required of them by BMQ should not blame the CF for having that standard. Instead they should re-evaluate their abilities prior to joining so that they have achieved the minimal standards required of them physically, as to prevent injuries.

If a spike penetrated your foot during your course it has nothing to do with your fitness. Hell I've been injured plenty of times during my short career. Only 1 time was it my personal fault for being unfit, the other times I couldn't have prevented it from happening. I will admit that I have been unsuccessful at a course because of my injuries, which was a result of me being not fit enough for the course. Do I blame the CF for it? No. Could I have prepared better? You bet.

 

[Greymatters]

Blaming the injured for their injury like that harkens back to a previous era in the CF when people were told to push through the pain... you know the old "pain is weakness leaving the body mentality" which is foolishness...

Leaders can never allow their people to train through injury without treatment.  That is just wrong.  Blaming the injured for their injury will cause them to not seek the medical attention they can require.  That isn't fostering toughness.  That is bullying... and there is no place for such conduct in leadership. 

There is a time when you push through the pain to carry out your duties, and worry about the injury later.  But during training isnt it.  It certainly helps when medical staff give a rat's ass and pay attention to the actual problem rather than blowing you off, which is a problem that I saw when I first got in, and was still there twenty years later when I retired, as was the problem of lack of leadership support for those who had valid injuries.  Fortunately, not all medical staff in all places are that way, so it would be unfair for anyone to say that all CF doctors and medics are untrustworthy, and not all leadership figures acted the same way either...

 

[maxdupuis]

I am sorry but...if you fall down a pile of dirt and are permanently disabled by that, are you really cut out for military service?  I fell out of trees as a kid, wiped out on my bike weekly if not daily and caught more baseballs with my head then with my glove.  I survived.

Even if you are in the best shape of your life if you injure your ankle then do a couple 5k runs on it a few sprints, jumping jacks and then a 13k march your making that injury worse and worse. Plus comparing when you got hurt as a child to someone getting hurt at 35 is flawed children tend to be more flexable and take falls better.

These people were permantly disabled because they had to push through their pain after being injured making their minor injury very serious.

 

[Pte.Butt]

Even if you are in the best shape of your life if you injure your ankle then do a couple 5k runs on it a few sprints, jumping jacks and then a 13k march your making that injury worse and worse. Plus comparing when you got hurt as a child to someone getting hurt at 35 is flawed children tend to be more flexable and take falls better.

These people were permantly disabled because they had to push through their pain after being injured making their minor injury very serious.

There is such thing called an un-lawful order. This means you cannot be ordered to do something in morel. If you are injured, to the point where you can't do a physical activity, then your instructors can notwill not make you do this, you'll go right back to MIR. If these recruits felt they shouldn't take part in what ever activity, they should have let the staff know. If they felt they could take part, and ended up that much more injured, then it is unfortunate. Shyte happens, people are mis-diagnosed EVERY day in almost every hospital. I am sure the MIR staff didn't do it intentionally. But I feel for the injured recruits, must suck to be in that position the rest of their lives.

 

[the 48th regulator]

There is such thing called an un-lawful order. This means you cannot be ordered to do something in morel. If you are injured, to the point where you can't do a physical activity, then your instructors can notwill not make you do this, you'll go right back to MIR. If these recruits felt they shouldn't take part in what ever activity, they should have let the staff know. If they felt they could take part, and ended up that much more injured, then it is unfortunate. Shyte happens, people are mis-diagnosed EVERY day in almost every hospital. I am sure the MIR staff didn't do it intentionally. But I feel for the injured recruits, must suck to be in that position the rest of their lives.

Right,

first of all it is immoral to disobey a command, second when did making someone do PT in the moring become considered wrong behaviour??

Great advice, tell the new people that it is okay to disobey a command because they feel icky about the pt....

:

dileas

tess

 

[Bigrex]

Just soldiering on as many of us do, will only hurt you in the long run. After being hit in the lower back by a steel door on HMCS Toronto, I self medicated, even after reporting the accident I only sought medical help when the pain grew too intense that the Tylenol ES and ibuprofen didn't cut it. Now that I am older and that daily pain has intensified to the point the pain in my back can actually make me tear up after walking any distance, VAC and VRAB have stated that if the injury in 99 had been serious enough to cause a disability today, I would have sought more medical attention than I did. In their opinion, (their words) going in for a 30 day dose of stronger pain meds every year or two for my back, (even while on pain medication for severe arthritis in both knees, which had required 3 surgeries in the last 18 months of my career), and repeated X-rays over the years, wasn't proof enough for them that I was suffering from a disability from mechanical lower back pain. Disability pension DENIED, but still awaiting the appeal hearing. but since VRAB has said only 37.5% of appeal hearing decisions are favorable, I am not expecting much.

So my advice to anyone, is not to hide the pain, but don't let it keep you from doing your job either, but by letting the medical staff know you require regular medication to subdue the pain, even if you don't use it daily, and you do your job, you will be covered if and when the condition worsens, without putting your career on the line for being medically unfit.

So if one disabled veteran doesn't have to go through the three year fight that I've had to endure, I can at least say my experience helped someone.

 

[schart28]

They tried stating that I i had not complained enought but it did not work. This is not a criteria to refuse someone.

 

[Staff Weenie]

My advice to folks - if you are ever injured as a result of CF activity - for God's sake ensure that a CF98 is generated and placed on your file! And make sure you get, and keep, a copy as well. It's not a medical document anymore, it's easy to fill out, and it's become such a vital piece of evidence in determining the CF's liability towards the member years down the road.

My second piece of advice - if ever you believe that your injury is due to more than simple pulled muscle, etc - see a Doctor, CF or civilian, and get it documented on your med records (again - keep copies of everything you can - it's your health records - it's your info). And when you get there, ensure that you and the Doctor communicate clearly. Every patient will communicate their symptoms differently, and every doc will interpret them differently. Unless it's a doc that you have built up a rapport with (and that's very hard for Recruits and more transient CF members), there is broad grounds for poor communication to intervene and lead to a misdiagnosis.

i.e. saying your ankle hurts puts you right in line with the other 150 people waiting in sick parade (MSK injuries from PT etc can be the vast majority of daily fare in an MIR). Saying that this pain is localized in a different spot, and is far more intense than you've ever experienced before etc sets off warning bells to a clinician.

I've seen troops brush off an injury so that they don't get RTU - but it comes back to haunt them, with no real record of it to help later.

Sadly, I've also seen the 'boy who cried wolf' happen - a perpetual Muffin in Distress who is really injured now gets overlooked. Not an excuse for our side to brush them off - but it does happen, and more than most would like to admit.

 

[PMedMoe]

And look how quickly a solution comes out......
CANFORGEN 039/08 CMP 018/08 131851Z FEB 08
DISCLOSURE OF MEDICAL/SOCIAL WORK INFO TO COMMANDING OFFICERS

As a side note, I have seen people in charge of troops, order them to do something they are not allowed to do.
Example (true story, I was standing right there):  A MCpl (Med A, no less) telling a Pte, who had a chit for "No stop and go sports", that they had to play floor hockey.

 

[Bigrex]

I agree, it shouldn't be, but that was what they said, and hopefully it will be corrected at the appeal hearing, but who knows what will happen since I will not be able to attend. They also denied a claim for aggravated OA in my right knee, stating that the lose of 4 degrees of cartilage and subsequent surgery within a span of 4 months, was merely coincidental that it was in the same time frame that I  had to do the majority of weight bearing on my right leg following surgery on my left knee (100% covered by VAC)  and that the medical opinion of my orthopedic surgeon was merely speculative at best when he said that it is only reasonable that excessive weight bearing for a prolonged duration, like i was required to do, would worsen an already existing case of arthritis, which had been only a mild case, but now requires a total knee replacement. the VRAB is a joke, and nothing more than a cost saving measure for the Government while claiming support for the veteran. How can any organization that is supposed to grant benefit of the doubt to the veteran claim someones disability is a coincidence, ignoring the specialists opinion altogether, utter BS.

 

[childs56]

A over weight lazy couch patatoe should be able to join the CF and with in 5-8 weeks see a huge difference in their physicle abilite.

I do not think the issue that these ladies brought up are directly related to the hard training and pushing the Military does during training it's troops.

The issue they have is they were injured during that training and were misdiagnosed for some time. Then forced to carry on with inappropriate diagnoses.Doing more harm.  Not that the training was hard, But that the training must go on reguardless of the finale outcome to the health of the soldiers.

Everyone here who has or had time in can remember someone they worked with who weatherd their injury, be it a sprained ankle, broken collar bone,  or other aliment. How many of you know  how those people are doing now.
The old addage of "SOLDIER ON" does not apply today in some situtions. These sitiuations are the ones in Basic training where a Soldier has been injured and has long term effects after they were released.

The response " they had a pre exhisting injury" does not cut it. That is why you go through a medicle. Once accepted into the CF then you are their responsibilitie. It is kinda hard to prove most pre exhisting injurys unless they are completely obvious. But most injurys can and do occur while in Military training. It isnt the fact these people got injured, IT IS THE WAY THEY WERE DIAGNOSED AND HANDLED AFTERWARDS that is the issue.

Let me guess everyone of you are honest when you have to fill out a medicle form for the CF, how many beer do you drink? do you have back pain, joint pain. If you answer no to any of those then you are with out a doubt lieing. Think about it.

 

 

[Rowshambow]

I think it would only be a "mis-diagnosis" if the medical staff gets all the proper info from said soldiers! I am not a medic, but have dealt with soldiers before, they don't always give out the proper info!! If she wanted to be in the Army sooooo bad as she said, I bet she didn't put up a fight at all about it, because she would have been affraid of getting RTU'd, at least until she was released! I am willing to bet pound for pound (like quite a few of the MIRC'S in St Jean) that she was limping Mon to Fri, and then dancing up a storm in Montreal on the weekends!!

 

[jeffb]

Ok, so I'm not in the CF anymore (although I'm in the process of getting back in) but I have been through QL-2 (albeit 10 years ago) so I have a pretty good idea of what it entails and I have to think that one of the things you should pick up on your BMQ is the ability to operate at the extremes of your endurance. Moving over rough terrain, in the dark while its raining, in FFO is a skill that you may have to have sometime and maybe BMQ is the place to learn that. (Especially if you are infantry bound).

I understand that there are apparently some hills in Afghanistan (sarcasm) so it's just possible that maybe it's a good idea to find out if you are able to climb up a hill while its raining without falling over and breaking your leg. Personally, I'd rather learn this in BMQ then while being shot at in Afghanistan.

As someone that is about to start my BMOQ (with any luck in May), I hope that I get pushed as far as possible. I expect there to be injuries on my course and I've been training for over a year now to make sure that I'm in my peak physical shape and that I'm not one of them. If you show up on course and can't even do 19 push-ups, maybe, just maybe, you have not demonstrated the drive necessary to be successful as a professional soldier.

 

[1feral1]

There is such thing called an un-lawful order. This means you cannot be ordered to do something in morel. If you are injured, to the point where you can't do a physical activity, then your instructors can notwill not make you do this, you'll go right back to MIR. If these recruits felt they shouldn't take part in what ever activity, they should have let the staff know.

In morel ?? That word does not exist. Try immoral.

There is something called common sense.

Well, after 32 yrs of green skin in two armies, I don't think I have ever heard of anyone giving direct orders and telling someone to do something if they are hurt.

Asking them if they can carry on, and say if it gets worse (possible sprains etc) let me know, is a different story.

 

[medaid]

In morel ?? That word does not exist. Try immoral.

There is something called common sense.

Well, after 32 yrs of green skin in two armies, I don't think I have ever heard of anyone giving direct orders and telling someone to do something if they are hurt.

Asking them if they can carry on, and say if it gets worse (possible sprains etc) let me know, is a different story.

Mate... he's a Pte(R) I think he just pulled that unlawful order thing straight from his Mil Law lecture...