• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Informing the Army’s Future Structure

As you regularly point out. We have no need for an Army ourself.
Your RCMP aren’t going to be able to defend Canadian Sovereignty, like they did pre 20th Century. Any incident requiring an actual armed force will require more equipment and combat training than a LE entity will have.

Furthermore unless Canada wants to get locked out of NATO, there is a requirement to field an Expeditionary Brigade at the very least.

But I think a 25k CA (total force size) would fit the bill for 4 Bde’s, plus additional support and training structures.
If two of those are 30/70, and 2 100/0, that frees up a bunch of PY

Those PY could be reallocated toward the RCN and RCAF.

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment on the needs.
Many of those enabler’s shouldn’t necessarily be CAF.
 
Your RCMP aren’t going to be able to defend Canadian Sovereignty, like they did pre 20th Century. Any incident requiring an actual armed force will require more equipment and combat training than a LE entity will have.

So we DO need an army for domestic purposes then?

How many tanks and guns?

Or BvS10s?

Furthermore unless Canada wants to get locked out of NATO, there is a requirement to field an Expeditionary Brigade at the very least.

Is Iceland locked out of NATO?



Luxembourg?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Related articles
Expenditures
Personnel
Leadership
Luxembourg Armed Forces
Lëtzebuerger Arméi
Armée luxembourgeoise
Arméi oofzeechen.svg
Luxembourg Armed Forces emblem
Founded16 February 1881
Current form29 June 1967
HeadquartersMilitary Centre "Caserne Grand-Duc Jean", Diekirch
Grand DukeHenri
Minister for DefenceFrancois Bausch
Chief of DefenceSteve Thull[1]
Military age18-26
Available for
military service
118,665 males, age 18-57 (2018),
117,456 females, age 18-57 (2018)
Fit for
military service
97,290 males, age 18-57 (2018),
96,361 females, age 18-57 (2018)
Reaching military
age annually
3,263 males (2018),
3,084 females (2018)
Active personnel939 (2018)[2]
Budget389 million (2021e)[3]
Percent of GDP0.56% (2021e)[3]
HistoryMilitary history of Luxembourg
RanksMilitary ranks of Luxembourg




But I think a 25k CA (total force size) would fit the bill for 4 Bde’s, plus additional support and training structures.
If two of those are 30/70, and 2 100/0, that frees up a bunch of PY

But those 4 Bdes, could be focused on National Defence tasks - organized around the Militia on a 20/80 basis (I got fed up seeing 30/70).

The Expeditionary Force could be organized around CanSOFCom. After all the National Defence Act stipulates that any troops not required for General Duties are to be raised, like every foreign service force since the Boer War as Special Force soldiers

National Defence Act - R.S.C., 1985, c. N-5 (Section 16)

Special force​

  • 16 (1) In an emergency, or if considered desirable in consequence of any action undertaken by Canada under the United Nations Charter or the North Atlantic Treaty, the North American Aerospace Defence Command Agreement or any other similar instrument to which Canada is a party, the Governor in Council may establish and authorize the maintenance of a component of the Canadian Forces, called the special force, consisting of
    • (a) officers and non-commissioned members of the regular force who are placed in the special force under conditions prescribed in regulations;
    • (b) officers and non-commissioned members of the reserve force who, being on active service or having applied and been accepted for continuing, full-time military service, are placed in the special force under conditions prescribed in regulations; and
    • (c) officers and non-commissioned members not of the regular force or the reserve force who are enrolled in the special force for continuing, full-time military service.
  • Composition of special force​

    (2) The maximum numbers of officers and non-commissioned members in the special force shall be as authorized by the Governor in Council, and the special force shall include such units and other elements as are embodied therein.

Those PY could be reallocated toward the RCN and RCAF.

Or CANSOFCOM

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment on the needs.
Many of those enabler’s shouldn’t necessarily be CAF.

I am talking about National Defence inclusive of Homeland Security, Emergency Preparedness and Public Safety.

As a citizen I don't care which colour uniform is worn, if any at all, which manager gets to take home what bonuses and which of my wallets the providers of the services get paid from.

I just want my wife and kids safe and worry free.

End of.
 
So we DO need an army for domestic purposes then?

How many tanks and guns?

Or BvS10s?



Is Iceland locked out of NATO?



Luxembourg?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Luxembourg Armed Forces
Leadership
Personnel
Expenditures
Related articles
Lëtzebuerger Arméi
Armée luxembourgeoise
Arméi oofzeechen.svg
Luxembourg Armed Forces emblem
Founded16 February 1881
Current form29 June 1967
HeadquartersMilitary Centre "Caserne Grand-Duc Jean", Diekirch
Grand DukeHenri
Minister for DefenceFrancois Bausch
Chief of DefenceSteve Thull[1]
Military age18-26
Available for
military service
118,665 males, age 18-57 (2018),
117,456 females, age 18-57 (2018)
Fit for
military service
97,290 males, age 18-57 (2018),
96,361 females, age 18-57 (2018)
Reaching military
age annually
3,263 males (2018),
3,084 females (2018)
Active personnel939 (2018)[2]
Budget389 million (2021e)[3]
Percent of GDP0.56% (2021e)[3]
HistoryMilitary history of Luxembourg
RanksMilitary ranks of Luxembourg
Neither of those countries is as large as Canada in terms of GPD or Pop, and neither have a NATO assigned task of fielding a Mech Bde.

But those 4 Bdes, could be focused on National Defence tasks - organized around the Militia on a 20/80 basis (I got fed up seeing 30/70).
What National Defense tasks do you see needing 4 Bde’s.

The Expeditionary Force could be organized around CanSOFCom. After all the National Defence Act stipulates that any troops not required for General Duties are to be raised, like every foreign service force since the Boer War as Special Force soldiers

National Defence Act - R.S.C., 1985, c. N-5 (Section 16)

Special force​

  • 16(1) In an emergency, or if considered desirable in consequence of any action undertaken by Canada under the United Nations Charter or the North Atlantic Treaty, the North American Aerospace Defence Command Agreement or any other similar instrument to which Canada is a party, the Governor in Council may establish and authorize the maintenance of a component of the Canadian Forces, called the special force, consisting of
    • (a) officers and non-commissioned members of the regular force who are placed in the special force under conditions prescribed in regulations;
    • (b) officers and non-commissioned members of the reserve force who, being on active service or having applied and been accepted for continuing, full-time military service, are placed in the special force under conditions prescribed in regulations; and
    • (c) officers and non-commissioned members not of the regular force or the reserve force who are enrolled in the special force for continuing, full-time military service.
  • Composition of special force​

    (2) The maximum numbers of officers and non-commissioned members in the special force shall be as authorized by the Governor in Council, and the special force shall include such units and other elements as are embodied therein.



Or CANSOFCOM
SOF is expensive and should not be wasted trying to play conventional army games.

SOF is an asset, but not THE asset for expeditionary forces.

I am talking about National Defence inclusive of Homeland Security, Emergency Preparedness and Public Safety.

As a citizen I don't care which colour uniform is worn, if any at all, which manager gets to take home what bonuses and which of my wallets the providers of the services get paid from.

I just want my wife and kids safe and worry free.

End of.
Better to fight on someone else’s soil than fight on your own.
 
Neither of those countries is as large as Canada in terms of GPD or Pop, and neither have a NATO assigned task of fielding a Mech Bde.

Everything is negotiable - always.

What National Defense tasks do you see needing 4 Bde’s.

What tasks do you see the Mounties needing help with?


SOF is expensive and should not be wasted trying to play conventional army games.

SOF is an asset, but not THE asset for expeditionary forces.

American read of "Special".

Not the Canadian NDA read of "Special"

Canadian read of "Special" is

In an emergency, ...

the Governor in Council may establish and authorize the maintenance of a component of the Canadian Forces, called the special force, consisting of ....members of the regular force, .... members of the reserve forc, .... members not of the regular force or the reserve force who are enrolled in the special force for continuing, full-time military service.

The maximum numbers of officers and non-commissioned members in the special force shall be as authorized by the Governor in Council, and the special force shall include such units and other elements as are embodied therein.

I am merely grabbing our Special Operations Force and returning it to its Canadian roots.

CSOR wears the insignia of the WW2 raised Special Service Force which was raised for Continental Defence tasks.

Witness their first deployment to evict the Japanese from Kiska and their being issued with the Weasel

220px-M29_Weasel_2.jpg



Better to fight on someone else’s soil than fight on your own.

Apparently that is a debatable point - judging from the number of people rushing to fight on Ukrainian soil, or even donate spare tanks.
 
Canadian geography doesn’t require hedgehog or porcupine. It’s not the Baltics etc and doesn’t have a land border concern.

Domestically the only real thing Canada requires beyond NORAD a sensing ability towards the Arctic surface and Subsurface. Combined with Rapid Reaction Forces of Air, Sea and Land.
Agreed
Due to that Geographical security, Canada thus has the freedom to create Expeditionary Forces. It behooves Canada to tailor those Expeditionary Forces into the needs of its Allies and to meet the requirements set by it’s Alliances.
I'd slightly modify that to suggest that we tailor the Expeditionary Forces so that they ideally meet the needs of our Allies/Alliances as well as our own domestic defence needs.
On a dollars and sense aspect the RCN and RCAF clearly need expansion to facilitate those roles, and the CA needs to be restructured.
100% Agree. RCAF and RCN should be the primary focus. CA secondary (but not irrelevant or ignored).
I would argue that 1) The CA requires a Light Mobile Force to provide QRF to Domestic Sovereignty (due to lacking RCAF and RCN capability for rapid transport of heavier assets) . 2) NATO feel that Canada needs to supply a Heavy CMBG, as it’s Army based commitment.
1) My suggestion above based on the US Army Force 2030 Light Division gives you 3 x Reg Force Light Battalions that can either generate Battle Group sized QRFs for a full Light Brigade. Mobilization of the Reserves gives you a full Division.
2) The proposal also includes a pre-positioned Mech Brigade in Latvia (incorporating eFP Latvia in the Brigade).
  • NATO says it wants a Canadian "Heavy" CMBG as our Army-based commitment but I'd argue that this is more of a political requirement to show NATO solidarity than a firm military requirement. What NATO really needs is Canadian soldiers on the front line so that if the Russians ever did invade there would be Canadian (and US and Spanish and Italian and Slovakian, etc.) casualties forcing an Alliance-wide response.
  • I believe that Russia knows it is too weak to defeat NATO in a direct conventional military confrontation. Direct invasion is in my mind unlikely in the extreme. Especially an attack against portions of NATO where there are high concentrations of multi-national military forces. Grey Zone political, social and economic interference are by far the most likely Russian actions (and a CMBG does very little to combat those).
  • I'd be willing to bet that NATO would be satisfied with our eFP Latvia presence IF we supplemented that with additional expeditionary forces more in line with our domestic defence requirements. For example:
    • Increased air and naval task force participation in Op Reasurance
    • Increased air transport and Air-to-Air refueling capabilities
    • More regular (and larger) annual training deployments of our Canadian-based Light forces to Europe
    • Commitments for rapid deployment of AD and LRP Fires capabilities to Europe in time of crisis, etc.
I would suggest the old adage that 2 is 1, 1 is none is fairly accurate given what we have seen from attrition in Ukraine.

Thus I would suggest that Canada’s minimum Army size would be 2 CMBG (or CABG), and 2 Light Bde Groups. This means even without looking at other contingency missions the CA needs 4 deployable Bde’s, 2 manned at 100% (a lt and hvy), and one of the CABG’s should be forward deployed, and the other’s equipment should be forward deployed as well, which would require forward deployment of support/maintenance personnel for those, as well as domestic training equipment, and a large acquisition of linked simulators to allow for formation training.
The US Light Division Hybrid model effectively gives you your 4 x deployable Brigades. 3 x Light Brigades each with an additional Mech Battalion essentially giving you four Brigades. One Mech and one Light Battalion per Brigade are 100% Reg Force which can generate your 1 x Light and 1 x Mech Brigade without Reserve call-up.

We currently have 18 x LAV Companies (6 per Brigade). The proposed structure would have 9 x Canada-based LAV Companies (3 per Brigade) and an additional 3 x Companies in the forward-deployed LAV Battalion leaving you with 6 x spare LAV Companies that could cover the eFP Company deployment, one extra Reserve-manned company per Battalion and two more Companies worth of spares.

Quality linked simulators for both the Reg Force and the Reserves would be one of the places we could spend the extra money from actually meeting our 2% GDP commitment which wouldn't fall into the "waste" category.
Furthermore without equipment any reserve is effectively useless.
Agreed. Equipping them as a Light force however is considerably cheaper than equipping them as a Mech force.
 
Agreed

I'd slightly modify that to suggest that we tailor the Expeditionary Forces so that they ideally meet the needs of our Allies/Alliances as well as our own domestic defence needs.

100% Agree. RCAF and RCN should be the primary focus. CA secondary (but not irrelevant or ignored).

1) My suggestion above based on the US Army Force 2030 Light Division gives you 3 x Reg Force Light Battalions that can either generate Battle Group sized QRFs for a full Light Brigade. Mobilization of the Reserves gives you a full Division.
2) The proposal also includes a pre-positioned Mech Brigade in Latvia (incorporating eFP Latvia in the Brigade).
  • NATO says it wants a Canadian "Heavy" CMBG as our Army-based commitment but I'd argue that this is more of a political requirement to show NATO solidarity than a firm military requirement. What NATO really needs is Canadian soldiers on the front line so that if the Russians ever did invade there would be Canadian (and US and Spanish and Italian and Slovakian, etc.) casualties forcing an Alliance-wide response.
  • I believe that Russia knows it is too weak to defeat NATO in a direct conventional military confrontation. Direct invasion is in my mind unlikely in the extreme. Especially an attack against portions of NATO where there are high concentrations of multi-national military forces. Grey Zone political, social and economic interference are by far the most likely Russian actions (and a CMBG does very little to combat those).
  • I'd be willing to bet that NATO would be satisfied with our eFP Latvia presence IF we supplemented that with additional expeditionary forces more in line with our domestic defence requirements. For example:
    • Increased air and naval task force participation in Op Reasurance
    • Increased air transport and Air-to-Air refueling capabilities
    • More regular (and larger) annual training deployments of our Canadian-based Light forces to Europe
    • Commitments for rapid deployment of AD and LRP Fires capabilities to Europe in time of crisis, etc.

The US Light Division Hybrid model effectively gives you your 4 x deployable Brigades. 3 x Light Brigades each with an additional Mech Battalion essentially giving you four Brigades. One Mech and one Light Battalion per Brigade are 100% Reg Force which can generate your 1 x Light and 1 x Mech Brigade without Reserve call-up.

We currently have 18 x LAV Companies (6 per Brigade). The proposed structure would have 9 x Canada-based LAV Companies (3 per Brigade) and an additional 3 x Companies in the forward-deployed LAV Battalion leaving you with 6 x spare LAV Companies that could cover the eFP Company deployment, one extra Reserve-manned company per Battalion and two more Companies worth of spares.

Quality linked simulators for both the Reg Force and the Reserves would be one of the places we could spend the extra money from actually meeting our 2% GDP commitment which wouldn't fall into the "waste" category.

Agreed. Equipping them as a Light force however is considerably cheaper than equipping them as a Mech force.

It seems to me that as long as we have enough of the right artillery, we can do just about anything we want. Maybe that should be our main effort, then add the 'trimmings' afterwards.

After all, Allied Armies with bolt guns and Shermans beat Axis Armies with Tigers and Schmeissers in WW2 ;)
 
It seems to me that as long as we have enough of the right artillery, we can do just about anything we want. Maybe that should be our main effort, then add the 'trimmings' afterwards.

After all, Allied Armies with bolt guns and Shermans beat Axis Armies with Tigers and Schmeissers in WW2 ;)
I'm sure someone will note that Artillery can't hold and take ground.

That being said, the situation now with NATO is very different even than the Allies during WWII. It's not an American Army and British Army and a Canadian Army working together in cooperation for an overall operational plan. NATO is 31 (going on 32) countries supplying interlocking lego-bricks to build an integrated Army (or that is the objective at least).

With capabilities being more complex (and expensive) and the size of Armies in general shrinking, those lego blocks are getting smaller and smaller. Ukraine is a perfect example. Supporting nations are not equipping entire Ukrainian Battalions or Brigades, they are supplying individual weapon systems. The same is true within NATO with the eFP Battle Groups (expanding to Brigades).

Take a look at eFP Latvia as an example:

eFP Latvia.png
I don't see any reason why Canada's contribution has to be specifically a "Heavy" Brigade Group. I do think politically there is a need to have troops in the direct line of fire in order to maintain Alliance cohesion but I also believe that as long as the scale of the contribution we provide shows an equal level of commitment (and military effect) as a Brigade Group then I seriously doubt our Allies would complain.
 
But those 4 Bdes, could be focused on National Defence tasks - organized around the Militia on a 20/80 basis (I got fed up seeing 30/70).

The Expeditionary Force could be organized around CanSOFCom. After all the National Defence Act stipulates that any troops not required for General Duties are to be raised, like every foreign service force since the Boer War as Special Force soldiers
American read of "Special".

Not the Canadian NDA read of "Special"
There's some mixing of apples and oranges going on here.

Firstly the "Special Force" is a very separate cat. It's purpose is to have a system available that can, in an emergency (which is a defined term in the act) and other limited circumstances create an entity that can be a mixture of RegF people and units and of those ResF people and units that have been placed on Active Service. It is not synonymous with "expeditionary" although it can be used as such.

We technically have a "Special Force" (of which we do not have any formed at the present) and "special forces" which more accurately are "special operations forces" which are part of CANSOFCOM. CANSOFCOM is not an expeditionary force by definition although they can be deployed on expeditionary missions just like all other elements of the CAF can be.

CANSOFCOM has specialized training and equipment that makes it a very expensive and talented force and while they have solid C2 structures for running expeditionary ops, they do not have the structure to scale up for the management of a large deployed conventional force. Yes, you can always reorganize things to do so but that would be at the risk of them losing their edge in the very narrow niche field that they currently occupy.

I'm not sure to what extent there is a need for a "Special Force" under our current system of expeditionary deployments based on RegF units with ResF volunteer augmentees rather than activated ones (even Korea just used volunteers for its Special Force). I do, however, think that it's an option we need to keep for the eventuality that we might need to form one again.

Re 20/80 v 30/70. Basically you can use whatever ratio you want, but what makes the 30/70 ratio attractive is that our base structure has most units these days with three sub-units. 30/70 allows one of those sub-units to be 100% RegF. That allows the sub-unit to train full-time as a sub-unit and allows it to be deployed as a sub-unit. It provides a clear and full career development path for RegF NCMs and officers within the unit without having to rotate out of it for periods of time.. A percentage of less that 30/70 dilutes the RegF component within the unit too much to do that. In fact, certain units will need a higher ratio than 30/70 to be effective hybrid units.

NATO says it wants a Canadian "Heavy" CMBG as our Army-based commitment but I'd argue that this is more of a political requirement to show NATO solidarity than a firm military requirement. What NATO really needs is Canadian soldiers on the front line so that if the Russians ever did invade there would be Canadian (and US and Spanish and Italian and Slovakian, etc.) casualties forcing an Alliance-wide response.
The pure trip wire concept doesn't work well in a hybrid war concept. Deterrence requires the presence of sufficient forces to face the opponent with a high risk of failure should he attack. In 2016 Rand did a study that found the Baltic states needed 7 NATO brigades, 3 of them heavy, for a basic minimum deterrence posture. Heavy brigades are necessary to stabilize defences and allow for counter attacks. We're still well short of that.

Shlapak, David et al “Reinforcing Deterrence on NATO’s Eastern Flank” RAND Corp 2016 Wargaming the Defense of the Baltics See also: What It Takes to Deter Russian Aggression in the Baltics

One needs a broad mix of light (including paramilitary territorial units) and heavy forces. Without a heavy component any Russian penetration would whittle the Baltics away with bite and hold penetrations. Canada does have the ability to field the core of a heavy brigade, whether inclusive of the eFP or on its own. It's a question of how we organize the Army in order to make it sustainable as it looks like we're back in it for the long haul. In addition the Army must have sufficient depth in resources to also allow for additional, unrelated foreign and domestic missions.

I'm an optimist. Leaving aside the current manpower shortages I think that between the RegF and ResF the Army has most of the resources needed to do that. At the same time I'm a pessimist because I think that the CAF does not have the vision to make the changes needed to stabilize and form the force that Canada needs. How many decades have we been working on trying to define and build the light infantry battalion capability?

I'm with @GR66 - we need to look at American divisional structures as models - not necessarily just the light division. Personally I think we can do one of each heavy and light with a total force structure. That doesn't necessarily mean a division can deploy but each one should be able to generate and sustain up to one brigade for reasonable periods with existing equipment and personnel.

🍻
 
The pure trip wire concept doesn't work well in a hybrid war concept. Deterrence requires the presence of sufficient forces to face the opponent with a high risk of failure should he attack. In 2016 Rand did a study that found the Baltic states needed 7 NATO brigades, 3 of them heavy, for a basic minimum deterrence posture. Heavy brigades are necessary to stabilize defences and allow for counter attacks. We're still well short of that.

One needs a broad mix of light (including paramilitary territorial units) and heavy forces. Without a heavy component any Russian penetration would whittle the Baltics away with bite and hold penetrations. Canada does have the ability to field the core of a heavy brigade, whether inclusive of the eFP or on its own. It's a question of how we organize the Army in order to make it sustainable as it looks like we're back in it for the long haul. In addition the Army must have sufficient depth in resources to also allow for additional, unrelated foreign and domestic missions.
I question the whole premise behind the RAND report and others like it. I may not disagree with what they say might be needed in terms of forces to defeat a Russian invasion of the Baltic States, but I question the likelihood of such an invasion in the first place.

I think that Russia knows that a direct invasion of a unified NATO would be military (and ultimately political) suicide. They don't have the military power to ultimately succeed and even if they do rebuild after the Ukraine debacle, the long term economic and demographic trends are working against them. The balance of power between Russia and NATO will only shift more and more to NATOs favour as time goes on.

Russia could certainly try to stir up trouble using Russian minorities within their border states but after what they have done to the civilian population in Ukraine I think even that course of action is less likely to be a viable course of action. All NATO really needs to do to deter a Russian direct invasion is to maintain enough political cohesion to show Russia that if they ever do attack, like Ukraine, NATO will not give up until any territory the Russians take is recovered. Nuclear weapons are of course the ultimate deterrent to a full-scale Russian invasion.

Much more likely in my mind is that Russia will continue to stir up trouble along the periphery of the West and influence smaller nations that have key strategic locations and resources, similar to the conflicts of the Cold War. Heavy armoured forces sitting in Eastern Europe do not deter those types of actions. I contend we need enough forces in Europe to deter Russia (including dedicated fly-over forces) rather than enough forces to actually defeat a Russian invasion at the start line.
I'm an optimist. Leaving aside the current manpower shortages I think that between the RegF and ResF the Army has most of the resources needed to do that. At the same time I'm a pessimist because I think that the CAF does not have the vision to make the changes needed to stabilize and form the force that Canada needs. How many decades have we been working on trying to define and build the light infantry battalion capability?

I'm with @GR66 - we need to look at American divisional structures as models - not necessarily just the light division. Personally I think we can do one of each heavy and light with a total force structure. That doesn't necessarily mean a division can deploy but each one should be able to generate and sustain up to one brigade for reasonable periods with existing equipment and personnel.

🍻
With the general shift of opinion in Western (i.e. American) military thinking that the Division rather than the Brigade is now the primary unit of independent maneuver in a peer conflict I think the highlighted portion is the real first question that Canada needs to answer in designing our future Army.

Do we believe that large scale military conflict involving ground forces between the West and a peer opponent is likely? If so, do we see the requirement for Canada to be able to deploy AND SUSTAIN in high intensity conflict a full Division capable of independent action?

If we don't believe that such a major land conflict requiring Divisional-sized forces is likely, or if we decide that we are comfortable with supplying the Brigade-sized building blocks to Allied forces in case of such a conflict then the way we chose to structure our forces is fundamentally different than if we do feel there is the need for a fully deployable Division.
 
I question the whole premise behind the RAND report and others like it. I may not disagree with what they say might be needed in terms of forces to defeat a Russian invasion of the Baltic States, but I question the likelihood of such an invasion in the first place.

I think that Russia knows that a direct invasion of a unified NATO would be military (and ultimately political) suicide. They don't have the military power to ultimately succeed and even if they do rebuild after the Ukraine debacle, the long term economic and demographic trends are working against them. The balance of power between Russia and NATO will only shift more and more to NATOs favour as time goes on.
Historically Russia will expand until defeated - then rebuild, and try and try again.
Just because at this current junction in time it is unlikely, doesn't mean in 5-10 years it would be.

Furthermore, at this point in time, I believe the disintegration of Russia is a much more likely occurrence. Due to the weapons etc available in Russia, a NATO force would be required for stability operations to ensure that the post Russian territory was secured, nuclear material removed, and criminal elements brought to justice - that would require a degree of Armor to conduct, and a much lighter constabulary force later -- similar to post WW2 Germany.

Russia could certainly try to stir up trouble using Russian minorities within their border states but after what they have done to the civilian population in Ukraine I think even that course of action is less likely to be a viable course of action. All NATO really needs to do to deter a Russian direct invasion is to maintain enough political cohesion to show Russia that if they ever do attack, like Ukraine, NATO will not give up until any territory the Russians take is recovered. Nuclear weapons are of course the ultimate deterrent to a full-scale Russian invasion.

Much more likely in my mind is that Russia will continue to stir up trouble along the periphery of the West and influence smaller nations that have key strategic locations and resources, similar to the conflicts of the Cold War. Heavy armoured forces sitting in Eastern Europe do not deter those types of actions. I contend we need enough forces in Europe to deter Russia (including dedicated fly-over forces) rather than enough forces to actually defeat a Russian invasion at the start line.
See my point about Post Nation stability OPs, I think that a forward deployed Brigade Group is the minimum option at this point, as it not only needs to be in location to be a deterrence, but also immediately available to conduct operations to support stability operations.
A EuroMaiden style Belorussian revolution or a Russian Civil War will need bodies on the ground ASAP to ensure control of WMD, and limit civilian loss of life.
With the general shift of opinion in Western (i.e. American) military thinking that the Division rather than the Brigade is now the primary unit of independent maneuver in a peer conflict I think the highlighted portion is the real first question that Canada needs to answer in designing our future Army.

Do we believe that large scale military conflict involving ground forces between the West and a peer opponent is likely? If so, do we see the requirement for Canada to be able to deploy AND SUSTAIN in high intensity conflict a full Division capable of independent action?
The question isn't if Canada should have a deployable Division, the question is will Canada fund an Expeditionary Division, and I think we all know the answer to that question is a resounding NO.
If we don't believe that such a major land conflict requiring Divisional-sized forces is likely, or if we decide that we are comfortable with supplying the Brigade-sized building blocks to Allied forces in case of such a conflict then the way we chose to structure our forces is fundamentally different than if we do feel there is the need for a fully deployable Division.
I think the Brigade Group as part of a Allied Div is the only feasible way for Canada to have an Army seat at the table these days.
Which your point about structuring them to fit with the most likely Allied Div's makes the greatest amount of sense.
 
Interesting. Ive always been told the prairies produced a disproportionate amount of sailors and Naval Officers in WW2.
Because they didn't know any better... the fishermen back home knew they didn't want to spend the war at sea, they'd rather be on land.
 
Historically Russia will expand until defeated - then rebuild, and try and try again.
Just because at this current junction in time it is unlikely, doesn't mean in 5-10 years it would be.
I agree that Russia's sense of geographic vulnerability feeds its perennial desire to try and expand toward defensible physical borders. It's my belief however that they realize that Westward expansion against a united NATO is simply beyond their conventional military capability (the underlined portion being a VERY key factor in the equation).

That being the case I suspect that Russia will focus instead on expansion and increased security arrangements involving the states on their Southern border areas (the Caucuses, Syria, Iran, Turkey, the "Stans", their maritime borders, key economic partners and strategic resource suppliers, etc.)

IF Russia felt that the political calculus changed and they could take a "bite" out of their Western frontier without a unified NATO military response then I agree that some sort of military incursion could be possible. That's why I 100% agree that a forward deployment of Canadian military capabilities, including front line combat forces (but the exact make up of such I force I believe is open to debate) is required. But again I'll contend that such a deployment is as much for political purposes to continue to bind NATO nations together than for their strictly military capability.
Furthermore, at this point in time, I believe the disintegration of Russia is a much more likely occurrence. Due to the weapons etc available in Russia, a NATO force would be required for stability operations to ensure that the post Russian territory was secured, nuclear material removed, and criminal elements brought to justice - that would require a degree of Armor to conduct, and a much lighter constabulary force later -- similar to post WW2 Germany.


See my point about Post Nation stability OPs, I think that a forward deployed Brigade Group is the minimum option at this point, as it not only needs to be in location to be a deterrence, but also immediately available to conduct operations to support stability operations.
A EuroMaiden style Belorussian revolution or a Russian Civil War will need bodies on the ground ASAP to ensure control of WMD, and limit civilian loss of life.
This scenario opens up a completely new can of worms. Would an increase of military forces on the border of Russia in the midst of an internal political crisis with the threat of Western intervention increase the chance of a radical military response (possibly including WMDs) by a collapsing regime? By making Russia feel even more insecure in a time of existential crisis for a failing government we could create exactly the type of crisis we want to avoid.

What might have happened if NATO military forces had tried to intervene to stop the August Coup in 1991? How might China react to a Western intervention in Russia?

I think that thoughts of Western military intervention in Russia (or even Belarus) pose serious potential risks and should require very serious consideration of the potential consequences before we think about taking any such action.
The question isn't if Canada should have a deployable Division, the question is will Canada fund an Expeditionary Division, and I think we all know the answer to that question is a resounding NO.
I agree with people like @FJAG that a deployable Division is certainly within the physical and economic capability of Canada should we wish to do so but as you suggest there is not the political will to achieve that capability. And I'd suggest that the opportunity cost of half-assing a Divisional force structure that isn't really capable of independent expeditionary operations in a peer conflict comes at the expense of larger and more effective naval and air forces.

In my opinion if we're not willing to go "all in" on a deployable Division(s) then don't pretend. Invest in effective Brigade-sized building blocks that can plug into allied Divisions and put the money saved into the RCN and RCAF.
I think the Brigade Group as part of a Allied Div is the only feasible way for Canada to have an Army seat at the table these days.
Which your point about structuring them to fit with the most likely Allied Div's makes the greatest amount of sense.
I can think of several ways that Canada could make valuable capability contributions to our Allies - both in the form of plug-in Brigade Groups and in supporting capabilities that also fit in well with our domestic defence requirements.
 
I agree that Russia's sense of geographic vulnerability feeds its perennial desire to try and expand toward defensible physical borders. It's my belief however that they realize that Westward expansion against a united NATO is simply beyond their conventional military capability (the underlined portion being a VERY key factor in the equation).

That being the case I suspect that Russia will focus instead on expansion and increased security arrangements involving the states on their Southern border areas (the Caucuses, Syria, Iran, Turkey, the "Stans", their maritime borders, key economic partners and strategic resource suppliers, etc.)
I hope there's significant engagement with Kazakhstan to ensure they feel supported in their independence. Assume you're suggesting increased security arrangements with Turkey and Iran?
 
Do we believe that large scale military conflict involving ground forces between the West and a peer opponent is likely? If so, do we see the requirement for Canada to be able to deploy AND SUSTAIN in high intensity conflict a full Division capable of independent action?
It's actually a two part question. The first part is: "Do we see that large scale military conflict involving ground forces between the west and a peer opponent is a foreseeable possibility?" The second part is: "If we do, then what force is needed to deter such a possibility?"

Likelihood has noting to do with the security posture adopted. It has everything to do with how much you prioritize resources for that eventuality. To me that's the difference between a full-time force and a part-time force. The more likely an event is, the more you have to be prepared to react quickly for it. The less likely an event is the more you can relegate the dedicated force structure to less expensive forces (such as a part-time force).

It becomes a matter of risk management. However, if an event is foreseeably possible, to risk manage the force to a zero capability will lose its value as a deterrent. This is exactly what Canada has done with so many vital capabilities.
If we don't believe that such a major land conflict requiring Divisional-sized forces is likely, or if we decide that we are comfortable with supplying the Brigade-sized building blocks to Allied forces in case of such a conflict then the way we chose to structure our forces is fundamentally different than if we do feel there is the need for a fully deployable Division.
If there is one thing that Ukraine is teaching us its that major land conflicts requiring divisional-sized forces is not only likely but probable.

I agree fully that at present we will not deploy a division but we're already talking about being the framework nation for a brigade assigned to a NATO multinational division. The reason we should be formed into at least one divisional structure is twofold. First, in order to have a viable brigade, you need to train your officers in the fundamentals of a divisional structure and the enablers brought to the table by a division and corps. In other words the brigade must train as a brigade that is part of a division. It needs to work out both its tactical and logistical doctrine and TTPs and have people who are instantly able to apply it/them. That requires a viable divisional framework at home to train within. Secondly, a prudent army would have a skeleton structure to build on in the event that more force is needed. Divisions have esoteric capabilities that do not exist within the brigade group. If those capabilities are risk-managed to zero-like air defence has been-then it becomes a years-long process to rebuild the expertise needed to run it effectively.

The napkin force that I've been playing around with is essentially a two phase one. Phase one creates divisional structures tailored to potential roles with the equipment and manning adjusted as to the likelihood of use. Less likelihood=more part-timers and just enough equipment to meet the training requirements; more likelihood=more full-timers and more equipment to meet low-notice missions.

Phase two merely builds on the existing structure by adding equipment. Should the risk level for employment of a heavy force rise then one merely adds equipment and increases the training tempo of the part-timers without the need to also develop the senior leadership skills needed and the doctrine from scratch.

Again, I'm not saying that we field a deployable division in the immediate future; I'm saying you need a deployable division structural framework in order to properly train deployable brigades and to give you a leg up when the possible need for a deployable division becomes a probability.

In my opinion if we're not willing to go "all in" on a deployable Division(s) then don't pretend. Invest in effective Brigade-sized building blocks that can plug into allied Divisions and put the money saved into the RCN and RCAF.
I'm not sure if anyone here has ever advocated going "all in" on a deployable division. I've gone so far as to say that we could form a deployable divisional headquarters and a deployable brigade both of which could be made sustainable for a short term of several years in peacetime and perhaps a year in wartime (using the Ukraine experience as a gauge) with the people and equipment we currently have. I'll go a step further, we could probably deploy a rump division of two brigades (missing all of its key enablers) out of the equipment and people we have but it would be an unsustainable, one-shot event.

I've also said it before. We're investing adequately in our navy and air force at this time. Our biggest problem is how we are seen by our allies and enemies and that focuses on the Army which is an expensive but toothless organization. It has no credibility with either allies or opponents. It needs to be seen as having value in order to provide the country with a measure of credibility and status for the wealth that it has. We already have and pay the Army for enough full-timers and part-timers to properly staff two real divisions. For a small investment in additional equipment (a small fraction of what we've already committed to the air force and navy) we could make that two equipped divisions.

No one here is arguing for a return to a cold-war army albeit that a modern army will, by necessity, still have cold-warlike elements to it. That's where the American structures help. They are expending a lot of brain power on that and we should watch it closely.

🍻
 
Last edited:
If there is one thing that Ukraine is teaching us its that major land conflicts requiring divisional-sized forces is not only likely but probable.
Ukraine is proving that major land conflicts requiring divisional-sized forces are not only likely but probably....between major powers and lesser powers where the Western powers do not directly intervene. I don't think you can extrapolate that to conclude that it also means that major land conflicts between NATO and Russia are probable as well. The calculus for the aggressor is totally different in the latter case. Ukraine poses no existential threat to Russia militarily. That is not the case with NATO.
I agree fully that at present we will not deploy a division but we're already talking about being the framework nation for a brigade assigned to a NATO multinational division. The reason we should be formed into at least one divisional structure is twofold. First, in order to have a viable brigade, you need to train your officers in the fundamentals of a divisional structure and the enablers brought to the table by a division and corps. In other words the brigade must train as a brigade that is part of a division. It needs to work out both its tactical and logistical doctrine and TTPs and have people who are instantly able to apply it/them. That requires a viable divisional framework at home to train within. Secondly, a prudent army would have a skeleton structure to build on in the event that more force is needed. Divisions have esoteric capabilities that do not exist within the brigade group. If those capabilities are risk-managed to zero-like air defence has been-then it becomes a years-long process to rebuild the expertise needed to run it effectively.

The napkin force that I've been playing around with is essentially a two phase one. Phase one creates divisional structures tailored to potential roles with the equipment and manning adjusted as to the likelihood of use. Less likelihood=more part-timers and just enough equipment to meet the training requirements; more likelihood=more full-timers and more equipment to meet low-notice missions.

Phase two merely builds on the existing structure by adding equipment. Should the risk level for employment of a heavy force rise then one merely adds equipment and increases the training tempo of the part-timers without the need to also develop the senior leadership skills needed and the doctrine from scratch.

Again, I'm not saying that we field a deployable division in the immediate future; I'm saying you need a deployable division structural framework in order to properly train deployable brigades and to give you a leg up when the possible need for a deployable division becomes a probability.
IF you make the calculation that a direct military attack by Russia against NATO is NOT a likely scenario then you must look at what the more probable scenarios are. If you think that smaller scale conflicts like Brush wars in periphery states are the most likely scenario then a traditional Divisional structure might not be ideal. Battle Group or Brigade Group structures that have various enablers that are traditionally Divisional assets integral to their structure rather than attached on an ad hoc basis might be better for example.

I also think it's important here to remember we're talking about the structure of the CANADIAN Army. Nobody is suggesting that the US Army or NATO abandon an overall Divisional structure. Canada can certainly participate in and contribute to the overall allied military structure without necessarily actually mirroring that structure in our own Army.
I'm not sure if anyone here has ever advocated going "all in" on a deployable division. I've gone so far as to say that we could form a deployable divisional headquarters and a deployable brigade both of which could be made sustainable for a short term of several years in peacetime and perhaps a year in wartime (using the Ukraine experience as a gauge) with the people and equipment we currently have. I'll go a step further, we could probably deploy a rump division of two brigades (missing all of its key enablers) out of the equipment and people we have but it would be an unsustainable, one-shot event.
Other than having the Canadian flag on the pin marking the Divisional HQ on the map is there really any real difference between contributing a Division with a Brigade or two that is "missing all of its key enablers" and simply plugging a Brigade or two into someone else's properly equipped Division?
I've also said it before. We're investing adequately in our navy and air force at this time. Our biggest problem is how we are seen by our allies and enemies and that focuses on the Army which is an expensive but toothless organization. It has no credibility with either allies or opponents. It needs to be seen as having value in order to provide the country with a measure of credibility and status for the wealth that it has. We already have and pay the Army for enough full-timers and part-timers to properly staff two real divisions. For a small investment in additional equipment (a small fraction of what we've already committed to the air force and navy) we could make that two equipped divisions.

No one here is arguing for a return to a cold-war army albeit that a modern army will, by necessity, still have cold-warlike elements to it. That's where the American structures help. They are expending a lot of brain power on that and we should watch it closely.

🍻
I 100% disagree with the highlighted statement. Both the RCAF and RCN are woefully lacking in mass. In the case of a major conflict between the West and either Russia or China the weakness of our air and naval forces will put Canada at much greater risk than the weakness of our Army. Those are the forces that can directly defend our homeland. The Army is essentially to defend other people's homelands. I'm not saying that isn't a valid reason to have an effective Army but our own defence should take priority.
 
If everyone reads the history of the CAF - I am sure most of you have and are far better at scholarly things than I - there is a pattern.

Ignore the military - a war comes up - pump up the military til the war is over - feel good for a few years - ignore the military.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
 
I would go one step further. Ill preparedness and ignoring potential bad things, is the Canadian way.
If everyone reads the history of the CAF - I am sure most of you have and are far better at scholarly things than I - there is a pattern.

Ignore the military - a war comes up - pump up the military til the war is over - feel good for a few years - ignore the military.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
 
I also think it's important here to remember we're talking about the structure of the CANADIAN Army. Nobody is suggesting that the US Army or NATO abandon an overall Divisional structure. Canada can certainly participate in and contribute to the overall allied military structure without necessarily actually mirroring that structure in our own Army.
You can’t do with a BtlGroup or Bde what you can do with a Div.
I’m vehemently against the Battle Group, as it’s really just a Bde Minus, as you still need the HQ and support portions when you deploy it by itself.
Other than having the Canadian flag on the pin marking the Divisional HQ on the map is there really any real difference between contributing a Division with a Brigade or two that is "missing all of its key enablers" and simply plugging a Brigade or two into someone else's properly equipped Division?
I agree with you, but simply from a Canadian Sovereignty issue, there may be things you will need to go alone on, or at very least have the capacity to go it alone.
I 100% disagree with the highlighted statement. Both the RCAF and RCN are woefully lacking in mass. In the case of a major conflict between the West and either Russia or China the weakness of our air and naval forces will put Canada at much greater risk than the weakness of our Army. Those are the forces that can directly defend our homeland. The Army is essentially to defend other people's homelands. I'm not saying that isn't a valid reason to have an effective Army but our own defence should take priority.
The USN and USAF to that.
Nothing Canada will every afford can do it.
Sorry the new CSC and F-35 aren’t being acquired in any valid number to actually do anything to protect Canada.

The fact the RCN and RCAF are getting new items is a major boost, but it’s not enough without my tax dollars funding the US Military.

The Army on the other hand is FUBAR. It pretty much needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
 
I'm curious to see how adding Sweden and Finland to NATO changes the potential taskings to member countries.
Are they seen as a net contributor to continental forces? Will NATO be bolstering the Nordic flank? Neither?

If the middle, does Latvia remain the most sensible place for Canada's boots on the ground contribution?
There seems like a lot more alignment between the Army military needed to defend Canada and the one needed to help defend Finland/Sweden than the one needed to help in the Baltics.
 
I'm curious to see how adding Sweden and Finland to NATO changes the potential taskings to member countries.
Are they seen as a net contributor to continental forces? Will NATO be bolstering the Nordic flank? Neither?

If the middle, does Latvia remain the most sensible place for Canada's boots on the ground contribution?
There seems like a lot more alignment between the Army military needed to defend Canada and the one needed to help defend Finland/Sweden than the one needed to help in the Baltics.
There's a bit of a difference.

Sweden and Finland could see the issues that Ukraine has by not being part of the alliance and decided to take steps to protect that. They have not been threatened by Russia since WW2 while the Baltic states were under the heel of the Soviet Union since WW2 and have substantial Russian populations slipped into them during that time.

Russia has clearly demonstrated animus against the Baltic states. I've personally been there when a Russian diplomat offered that if the Baltics join NATO "the tanks will roll". They haven't yet but if Russia can shape the situation in those countries to make it more favourable I think they would try. Scapegoating is the way dictators (and don't think for a second that Putin isn't one) keep up national fervor to gloss over internal shortcomings.

Credible deterrence in the Baltics is necessary. We've already made a commitment there. It's both necessary and it's something that's at a scale that we can do it.

🍻
 
Back
Top