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Incentive revoked

Bag-o-Hammers

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I've searched the forum for something similar to my problem but came up empty, so i figured I'd start a new thread.
When I signed my VIE this past Oct i was told i would be awarded IPC3 and my AB's. In Feb the incentive was revoked. Nothing had changed with the information i had given the recruiters regarding my education. Now i'm supposed to pay back $3500. I know we are supposed to keep a close eye on our pay and report any discrepancies but as far as i was informed i had been entitled to the money. I spoke to my PO about a grievance but he said there wasnt much point, it likely wouldn't get me anywhere. Is this really true? in no way could i have known i wasn't really entitled to this. can they really award something, pay you the reward, then turn around and ask for it back?? I understand alot of ppl have problems with the pay office and dont have many options, do i stand a realistic chance of winning a redress?
Thanks for reading
 
Unfortunately, unless you have something in writing, you're likely not going to get anywhere.

But, if you feel a grievance is warranted (and IMHO, it is), I'm a firm believer that you should at least present the issue, it may signify an ongoing issue and/or possibly help someone behind you who happened to have the same problem.

 
Bag-o-Hammers said:
When I signed my VIE this past Oct i was told i would be awarded IPC3 and my AB's.

Who told you this?
When did they tell you this?
How did they tell you this?  (In writing? Verbally?)
Why did they tell you this?  (For what reason were you supposed to receive IPC3 and your AB's?)
Do you have anything in writing supporting the above?

These are all questions which you will need clear answers to before you can decide whether to proceed with a grievance or not.
 
Isn't the fact that he has to pay back 3500$ proof enough that he was given IPC 3 and was just told at the RC that that's what he's getting. Given that's it's not him that made the mistake, go see the clerks and tell them not to take it all at the same time but pay it back in installments you're comfortable with.
 
meni0n said:
Isn't the fact that he has to pay back 3500$ proof enough that he was given IPC 3 and was just told at the RC that that's what he's getting. Given that's it's not him that made the mistake, go see the clerks and tell them not to take it all at the same time but pay it back in installments you're comfortable with.

That's not quite how it works.  CFAO 203-3 is still the extant regulation (notwithstanding some of the details with respect to CHQ directorates are out of date).  The CO has to approve recovery over a six month period.  Recovery over a period beyond six months needs to be approved by the Director Military Pay Accounts Processing (DMPAP).  If you received the overpayment, for example, over a two year period, you should be able to pay it back over a two year period (although if you get promoted in the meantime, they may want you to pay it back faster).  The Pay Office cannot approve anything, but they should be able to help you start the process.

Having said that, a grievance may well be worth your while.  If you received something in good faith, you may be able to keep it.  I once worked on a case where the "system" discovered it had incorrectly commissioned an officer (CFR vice former service as an NCM) who was clearly (in retrospect) ineligible for CFR.  When the "system" discovered the mistake (some three years after the fact), the officer in question simply received an email from HQ informing her they were going to recover approximately $5000 from her pay.  In short, everything went wrong.  As her supervisor, I stepped in, put the brakes on the recovery and then engaged the chain of command.  I gained the full support of the chain of command (right up to the CMS) and notwithstanding that a mistake had been made in the commissioning process, no recovery was made and the indivdual did not have to pay anything back and we have all of this in writing.

Rather than start with a grievance; however, I would start by engaging your divisional system.  You are entitled to an assisting officer to help prepare your case.  I recommend you find yourself a good LogO with experience in pay to help you.  The Pay Office may even be able to help you on this (at least they should).  The Pay Office should not be treating you as an adversary.  The gist of your argument is this:

1)  You were made an offer which you accepted in good faith (hopefully, you've kept written evidence of this);

2)  you made decisions based on this offer;

3)  you had no reason to believe the offer was invalid;

4)  you did not misrepresent yourself in any way to cause them to make an invalid offer (I assume this is true?);

5)  you have fully lived up to the terms of the agreement, including accepting the higher level of responsibility expected of an AB (vice an OS); and

6)  to retroactively rescind an offer which you accepted in good faith is fundamentally unfair, particularly as you cannot be reimbursed for the level of responsibility you accepted as a result of your higher placement.*

*Admittedly, this may be a bit far-fetched in the case of an AB vs OS, but this argument did work in my other case where they wanted to retroactively revert a Lt(N) to a SLT.

Having said all of the above, you may not ultimately be successful.  However, by starting this process, you will at the very least avoid an immediate recovery and you may ultimately win.  The only way to guarantee that you won't win is to never try.  Just remember to remain calm, state the facts and present your arguments clearly and objectively.  And remember to get yourself a good assisting officer who can basically be anyone of your choice (within reason, but try to avoid the young SLt under training who needs experience as an assisting officer).  He/she doesn't even need to be a member of your unit.

Good luck.

 
Occam said:
Who told you this?
When did they tell you this?
How did they tell you this?  (In writing? Verbally?)
Why did they tell you this?  (For what reason were you supposed to receive IPC3 and your AB's?)
Do you have anything in writing supporting the above?

My file manager at the CFRC told me this verbally the day i signed my VIE 6 OCT 10. It also stated it on my posting message to st. jean. I was told my civvie education (engineering technologist dipl.) was the reason i was offered it.

The problem with the posting message is that it also said i was unskilled. so when a clerk in st. jean saw the contradiction she sent it to borden to be amended to say semi-skilled. When it came back it had been deemed i wasn't ever eligable for the incentive, this was 7 Feb 11, and i would have to pay back the extra.


Pusser said:
That's not quite how it works.  CFAO 203-3 is still the extant regulation (notwithstanding some of the details with respect to CHQ directorates are out of date).  The CO has to approve recovery over a six month period.  Recovery over a period beyond six months needs to be approved by the Director Military Pay Accounts Processing (DMPAP).  If you received the overpayment, for example, over a two year period, you should be able to pay it back over a two year period (although if you get promoted in the meantime, they may want you to pay it back faster).  The Pay Office cannot approve anything, but they should be able to help you start the process.

In the mean time I have gone down the necessary avenues as you have suggested and been granted permission from the powers that be to pay it back over a 12 month period, so I'm all set up i n that regard.

Pusser said:
1)  You were made an offer which you accepted in good faith (hopefully, you've kept written evidence of this);

2)  you made decisions based on this offer;

3)  you had no reason to believe the offer was invalid;

4)  you did not misrepresent yourself in any way to cause them to make an invalid offer (I assume this is true?);

5)  you have fully lived up to the terms of the agreement, including accepting the higher level of responsibility expected of an AB (vice an OS); and

6)  to retroactively rescind an offer which you accepted in good faith is fundamentally unfair, particularly as you cannot be reimbursed for the level of responsibility you accepted as a result of your higher placement.*


You've pretty well hit the nail on the head here pusser, I dont feel ive done anything wrong here, in fact i feel ive excelled since joining, winning top recruit honours at BMQ, SM of the grad parade, and been a good little PAT ever since. I'll take your advice and remain calm, honest, and professional. Thank you very much for all the advice.
Oh one last thing thing though, How would a simple OD go about recruiting a LogO to assist him in a matter like this?





 
Bag-o-Hammers said:
How would a simple OD go about recruiting a LogO to assist him in a matter like this?

Start with your chain of command.  It is their job to help you after all, but don't let anyone stop the process by telling you that you were not entitled to semi-skilled entry.  That's no longer the point.  Notwithstanding that it may have been wrong to enroll you as semi-skilled, the fact is that they did.  You didn't make the mistake, so why are you now paying for it?  If your chain of command won't help you, then you are left with little choice but to apply for redress of grievance.  If you do that, then they have to provide you with an assisting officer.  You do need to move on this though.  There is a time limit on grievances.  Check out QR&Os 19.26 and 19.27, as well as CFAO 19-32 (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/019-32-eng.asp).
 
Bag-o-Hammers said:
I've searched the forum for something similar to my problem but came up empty, so i figured I'd start a new thread.
When I signed my VIE this past Oct i was told i would be awarded IPC3 and my AB's. In Feb the incentive was revoked. Nothing had changed with the information i had given the recruiters regarding my education. Now i'm supposed to pay back $3500. I know we are supposed to keep a close eye on our pay and report any discrepancies but as far as i was informed i had been entitled to the money. I spoke to my PO about a grievance but he said there wasnt much point, it likely wouldn't get me anywhere. Is this really true? in no way could i have known i wasn't really entitled to this. can they really award something, pay you the reward, then turn around and ask for it back?? I understand alot of ppl have problems with the pay office and dont have many options, do i stand a realistic chance of winning a redress?
Thanks for reading
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You need to get your supervisor to set up a PLAR, he can do this with communications through the career manager, unfortunately this is a common issue but it can be fixed it just takes time. At my last unit we had three semi skilled people show up each with different levels of pay and rank, even though they all had the same degree. After many emails and a lot of leg work by several PO's the files were submitted . It is a long and convoluted process but keep on your PO about it, this is his job to take care of his subordinates. Always file a grievance if you feel you were done wrong. Just remember you have to do all of the work on these. The PO can only help you out with format etc he cannot do the grievance for you.
 
Submit your grievance.  Never go with the you do not have much of a chance so don't bother. I have seen many grievances and requests for compensation that were given little to no chance to make it get approved.  All it takes is one little piece of information that someone picks up on to make it through.  Off the top I think you have a slim chance of winning a grievance not to pay back the amount and any chance is worth it.  Worse case is they will tell you you have to pay it which is where you are anyway.
 
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