How are civilians legally requried to address members of the CF

[NovaScotiaNewfie]

LOL oddly enough I hate to be called Sir..makes me feel old..so I say if I want to be called Sir I would rejoin the Reserves for put in for the Reg Force and try to go DEO to get a comission. I would rather be called by my first name. Don't care if I'm ever called Sir..

 

[PMedMoe]

I said it was an argument...not a good one.

Yep, it's an argument, and it's not a good one, so let's finish this.

I'm with Loachman,  I do not want any "special" form of address.

Just call me Moe!! 

 

[wakingheart]

Hey Moe

 

[PMedMoe]

Hey whatever your name is!!    Okay, wakingheart!

 

[larry Strong]

You might want to ask yourself...how many civvies know the rank structure and what the correct terminology is for a specific rank.

Damn just notice, my post count is the sign of the devil. 

 

[LightHammer]

You might want to ask yourself...how many civvies know the rank structure and what the correct terminology is for a specific rank.

Yup that pretty much just sums it up. When I first started my application I had no idea how to address the recruiters seeing as I had no idea how the structure worked, and still to this day its still a little muddy.

 

[EW]

Let's not confuse protocol with lawful requirements.  Yes rank is important, structured authority is important, and it all ties into respect - which is sadly lacking in the civilian world - but how far do you want to take it.  I can't believe the 'signature block creep' that I see with the civvies and ex-military.  Some people include every degree they have, it started with a few doctors who had their PhD, and then spread to the professional engineers, and then the ex military folks (MMM, CD, etc, etc) to everyone with a basic degree including the full list after their signature, on the most informal inter-office correspondence.  Give me a break.  I've got a few that the GG says I can use after my name, but I'll save it for letters to my MP, or other such 'formal' matters.  Same as the rank (outside of military circles).

I'm sure that many on these boards remember the wives wearing their husbands rank.  Who wants to see that in wives/husbands today - to the extent that it used to be.

As for the example of returning mail that doesn't include rank - good way to make a point, and I don't fault that - so long as there was nothing that was actually time-sensitive that got 'returned to sender' because you wanted to make a point to the civilian originator.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

And considering most civillians would not be able to tell the difference between for an example a Major and a Lieutenant Commander I don't see why they should be expected to address military personnel in a formal fashion.

 

[Haggis]

And considering most civillians would not be able to tell the difference between for an example a Major and a Lieutenant Commander I don't see why they should be expected to address military personnel in a formal fashion.

However, in reference to my earlier rant, those who work in and for DND and the CF should know the rank structure and use it in official documentation.  I know of one civilian employee who steadfastly refuses to even acknowledge the rank of anyone below Colonel.  That is becasue she, as an AS-05, sees herself as the professional peer of LCols and superior to those below.

I manage a mixed military and civilian team.  Within the team I allow my civilians to call me by my given name.  Not so, however, for my CF subordinates.  Even so, in all correspondence which may leave my team (e-mails, briefing notes etc.), I insist and expect that my CF members will be addressed by thier ranks and surnames or positions and my civilains by Mr/Mrs./Ms/Madame or positions.

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

From what I have seen here, just a shuttle away from NDHQ, most civies tend to refer all CF personnel as "Sir/Mam" whether they are Privates or Generals simply because they don't know. They are given copies of the rank structure and are advised to become familiar with it, but it rarely happens. It becomes more interesting when you work with some of them both in the Reserves and at DND.

 

[medaid]

Ah, Haggis don't you just LOVE thos assimilated "ranks"? What's important for them to know is that no matter what their "rank" is they're still a civilian, and if they so chose to join the CF, they're still a Pte(r) or an OCdt first.

 

[scoutfinch]

You clearly have never been exposed to DND (vice the CF).  For example, the Director of CDI is a civilian. She is THE boss... not just a civilian.

 

[medaid]

True that Scout, the civies I've been exposed to are quite pleasant maybe it's because they're quite removed from the throan of power ;D

 

[scoutfinch]

I am not talking about whether civilians are pleasant to work with.  Frankly, so long as they do their job I don't care if they are pleasant or otherwise. 

My point is that while there may be many civilian employees of DND and/or the CF, there are many highly qualified civilians working for DND that operate at an executive level.  They aren't just civilians, they are executive level bureaucrats working for DND.  To suggest that civilians should 'know their place' because they don't wear a uniform sounds a little silly.

For example, I don't think anyone would call Ward Elcock just a civilian -- despite the fact that he doesn't have a rank because he is just a 'civy'... a civilian who just so happens to be the DM.  I'd also like to see someone try to put him in "his place."

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

You clearly have never been exposed to DND (vice the CF).  For example, the Director of CDI is a civilian. She is THE boss... not just a civilian.

A quick intervention to point out that this is not correct.  Chief of Defence Intelligence is MGen MacDonald.  The civilian you're referring to is Director General, Intelligence Production - who works for CDI.  There are other senior civilians within CDI, but the ultimate boss is military.

 

[scoutfinch]

Point taken.  I short circuited my explanation and ultimately mis-stated what I meant.  Thanks for the correction.

 

[Haggis]

Ah, Haggis don't you just LOVE thos assimilated "ranks"? What's important for them to know is that no matter what their "rank" is they're still a civilian, and if they so chose to join the CF, they're still a Pte(r) or an OCdt first.

Many civilians in the DND do, in fact, have authority over CF members, but only to a point.    My immediate supervisor is a civilian, so is hers and hers is the ADM, also a civilian.  I address my boss by her given name, at her request, but only in unoffcial dealings.  My Director and DG and ADM all get a "ma'am" out of me, regardless of the context of our e-mails, meetings etc. 

 

[simysmom99]

I think this speaks well to the lack of respect in the workplace these days.  Both from military to civvie and vice versa.  At the end of the day, politeness should reign and formality should be adhered to unless otherwise directed.  I will always call someone in the military that I do not personally know by Sir/Mame.  I can read rank just fine, but IMO being polite should always be the standard.

 

[1feral1]

Thought I'd pipe up on this one.

Here in Australia, on only a few occasions, I have been addressed as a war criminal, and a baby killer by civvies at large on the outside. I did not even raise an eyebrow, so if one is abused, just carry on and ignore it. However I do look at them in the eye. Fair dinkum!

On the other hand I have hand many thank me for my service, and especially if they recognise my medals from Iraq. Some civvies are actually quite switched on, and many are former members themselves.

The civvies within Defence, I know and work with (about 7 or 8 of them), address me by my Christian name. Other Defence Civilians will usually address me either my Sergeant or Mate.

 

[George Wallace]

A polite "Sir" or "Mame" (for our female members) is acceptable, even if it is a little gratting for 'working folks'.  ;D

"General", as I was addressed last night, is getting to be a little on the "insulting side".