Grammar and Sentence Structures

[Island Ryhno]

Regarding the sms, I just upgraded to a Nokia 6820, very pretty smart phone! The phone actually flips open and has a QWERTY keyboard so I can type full messages easily, instead of sms babble!

 

[USSRsovietsnake]

Call me and thousands of others old fashioned but i prefer to use the phone as it was used for many years prior to text messaging.

 

[45506445210414924]

wow this is a good topic, just finished reading all of these messages and it made me sit back and think of the way I write and talk. The more I think about it (as a high school student just about to graduate) I wonder why my teachers never mentioned anything about puncture and sentence formality. The majority of the time she was going on about how her and her dog were abducted by aliens!

This seems to be a really big problem for me because I'm stuck in the "MSN LANGUAGE" and it is effecting EVERYTHING, for example, the other day i was sitting down and filling out this application form and i remember one of the questions asked "Explain a difficult situation and how you managed it", i wrote the answer out properly but had millions of chicken scratches scratching out the words "u" "urs" "i" I think i even put "lol" on it too. Needless to say I still haven't received a call back ha ha. Anyways, what could one do to possibly improve his/her grammar, punctuality, sentence structure??? I passed my grade 12 English at a college level with a 72% should one read more?? spend more time proofreading (another point, someone had mentioned about word processors and how they automatically correct the words which is another major factor in this as it seems to come in hand alot with me).

I'd greatly appreciate some kind of feedback as the last thing i could possibly want is 5 years ahead, going to apply for a police officer writing " I learnd skewl @ college n it tot me gud" ha ha

Anyways good topic, it's taken me about 20 minutes to write this ha ha so lets hit this spell check!

 

[pronto]

You know, there are lots of resources available to people who genuinely wish to improve their diction, grammar and spelling. (Your dog-loving teacher does frighten me a tad though!). The web itself is full of free pages and texts on grammar and how to construct a sentence legibly, you can look at 'em, but I am not sure they'd be useful to anyone.

They all seem to assume a more than passing acquaintance with English, a vocabulary a wee bit more than the average, and a predilection for slogging through texts.

I'll give you a strategy which may work though:
  1. Buy a small two volume encyclopedia (at a used book store if funds are tight)
  2. Buy an OED (Oxford English Dictionary) - not the two volume vellum one - that's really expensive!
  3. Read one or two pages of the encyclopedia every day (before bed)
  4. Look up unknown words in the dictionary when you find them
  5. Repeat as required, or until you are finished the encyclopedia; and neat, new facts spew out of your
            ears.

As well: read. Read a lot. Read vociferously. Read boatloads of stuff. You will develop a sense of sentence styles and structures by seeing how others do it, I promise you. I cannot over-emphasise the reading bit!. Anything will do, by the way. Science Fiction, Crime, Drama, Harlequins, et cetera.

Lastly - investigate Toastmasters and/or Dale Carnegie. The concept, and indeed the courses, may seem hokey - but they work! The more you speak in public, the more confident you become, and strangely enough, the better you will become at composition too!

Sounds like you are already on the way. Go for it - I'd hire you.

 

[Zombie]

wow this is a good topic, just finished reading all of these messages and it made me sit back and think of the way I write and talk. The more I think about it (as a high school student just about to graduate) I wonder why my teachers never mentioned anything about puncture and sentence formality. The majority of the time she was going on about how her and her dog were abducted by aliens!

This seems to be a really big problem for me because I'm stuck in the "MSN LANGUAGE" and it is effecting EVERYTHING, for example, the other day i was sitting down and filling out this application form and i remember one of the questions asked "Explain a difficult situation and how you managed it", i wrote the answer out properly but had millions of chicken scratches scratching out the words "u" "urs" "i" I think i even put "lol" on it too. Needless to say I still haven't received a call back ha ha. Anyways, what could one do to possibly improve his/her grammar, punctuality, sentence structure??? I passed my grade 12 English at a college level with a 72% should one read more?? spend more time proofreading (another point, someone had mentioned about word processors and how they automatically correct the words which is another major factor in this as it seems to come in hand alot with me).

I'd greatly appreciate some kind of feedback as the last thing i could possibly want is 5 years ahead, going to apply for a police officer writing " I learnd skewl @ college n it tot me gud" ha ha

Anyways good topic, it's taken me about 20 minutes to write this ha ha so lets hit this spell check!

pronto has some great suggestions for you to develop your writing skills. If you're going to college, there are numerous classes you can take that will help as well. Realizing how and where this will affect your life and having the desire to improve puts you way ahead of others in your situation. Good Luck 

By the way, your writing is not that bad...I've seen much worse.

 

[c4th]

Call me and thousands of others old fashioned but i prefer to use the phone as it was used for many years prior to text messaging.

Back in the day when there was a dial to dial with.  When more than one line meant more than one phone.  I remember being amazed at the portability of a friend's phone because he had a super long cord for the receiver.

I don't believe that people who demonstrate lousy writing skills on message boards are able to write coherently in more formal correspondence.  Not too long ago I had the pleasure of reading autobiographies of recruits I was training. Had been read aloud to me I would have sworn half were written in crayon.  The education level of my soldiers was between grade 12 and 1st year university.  The university students were not markedly better writers.  I have seen plenty of military correspondence and PER's that have been atrociously written.  Generally speaking, readers seem to make better writers.

Like any muscle the brain needs to exercise regularly and maybe just as importantly correctly.  BBS's and forums such as this are a great training tool for any essay writers.  If your thesis passes muster through the likes of a_majoor, infanteer, and pbi you will probably get at least a C-.  

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Instead of prostituting my literacy to every little thread that comes along like the rest of you whores,   I am selective in what I read, and my rules filter out 90% of the less than useful threads and posts out there, making my army.ca experience much more enjoyable.

I don't read:

- Threads with stupid, non-descriptive titles. I don't know why this isn't in the board rules. Who the heck would read a thread titled "everyone must read this" or "HELP needed" or "Can anyone give me info"? Are you selling penis enlargement pills or Nigerian bank accounts? Sounds like it to me. In my opinion all such threads should be deleted and their authors placed on probation.

- Posts with silly abbieviations and l33tspeak.

- Posts with more than 3 different types of smilies.

- Posts that are completely lacking in attention to spelling and grammar. If you post barely intelligable chickenscratch and your name is not KevinB, I have no time to decypher it.

If I wanted to subject myself to the above stupidity I would have applied to be a mod. At least then the increased sex appeal would offset the loss of brain cells.

You dress like the picture in your avatar and call us whores? 

I'm guessing you and KevinB are tight, if not, I'd hate to see you crossing the line with insults.  I'd be careful how you characterize other posters at army.ca also - although I generally follow the same guidelines as you do - anything with three or more smileys I ignore, and tune out poorly spelled posts, etc.  I would like to think I'm more charitable than judging intelligence based on spelling and grammar structure - certainly some of the most experienced soldiers tend to lack formal schooling in such things, I am thinking of the gentlemen who may have retired in the past couple of decades who grew up when university or even high school education was not so common.  They still have a lot of wisdom to add to the mix - just unfortunately need a bit of patience when we go to review their thoughts.

But thank you for acknowledging the hard work and challenges that we mods go through to make this a better place for you.  Now go put a shirt on.

 

[c4th]

It's great to be a moderator. ;D (sorry - couldn't resist - edited by Moderator)

And quoting the entire text portion of a post is as annoying as starting a one sentence paragraph with a conjunctive.

 

[dutchie]

And quoting the entire text portion of a post is as annoying as starting a one sentence paragraph with a conjunctive.

LMFAO!

I would have typed that out in proper english, but I like irony.

 

[c4th]

;D Cute.

Ref Mod.  1 rd FFE.

 

[dutchie]

;D Cute.

Ref Mod.  1 rd FFE.

Ok, now I really am LMFAO...

(Hears sound of mortar bomb followed by screaming.)

 

[dutchie]

Rounds complete.

 

[Kal]

In my opinion, I believe the use of shorthand, l33tspeek, etc., is just the english language evolving. A few years ago, I was reading an article in which some inter-city schools in the U.S., are teaching Ebonics because it has become so commonplace.  The manner of speech in which people communicated fifty years ago, would have been considered crude by the standards of 200 years ago.  I personally don't like the idea of misspelling words or using improper grammer, but accept the fact the words and spoken language will continue to change in meaning and definition.  

 

[Michael Dorosh]

 I personally don't like the idea of misspelling words or using improper grammer,

Who wants to be first? ;D

 

[RCA]

Brevity and Clarity are key points. Take a business communication crse, or get hold a text. Writing a business letter or doing a proposal teaches a lot. Try composing a letter denying someone credit, while keeping their business.

As for language evolving, I have my doubts. In in the money world where it really counts, I don't see or forsee the changes.

 

[Kal]

Who wants to be first? ;D

  You got me.     I meant intentionally misspelling, I always had a problem in remembering the spelling for grammar.  

EDIT - Nothing came up in the spell check in my original post, though.

 

[Island Ryhno]

That course was called Business 2000 here at MUN and I hated it.    It did help prepare me for the business world however, "out there" if you hand somebody a crap proposal etc, you will have your behind handed to you. Jeez I'm loquacious!  

 

[Zombie]

In my opinion, I believe the use of shorthand, l33tspeek, etc., is just the english language evolving.

I wouldn't call it evolution. Evolution implies going from a state of simplicity to one of complexity, making these trends the polar opposite of evolution.

 

[pronto]

This is not the English language evolving! Ebonics, a failed experiment in the judgement of a bunch of linguists, and Bill Cosby, is more akin to a dialect, or accent. Web-shorthand is not, and never will be an effective method of transmitting concepts (complex or simple). There simply aren't enough "words" in the language. True shorthand (Gregg, Pitman, et al) has a syntax and lexicon.

God help me, I just dated myself - who out there even remembers Pitman shorthand? Our younger board confreres may have a point when they say "Use web-speak for my buds on the web" and use proper English when communicating to a broad (albeit less "hip") audience. However, (and this is an huge however), RCA is accurate: in finance, politics, senior management, et cetera, web speak will never suffice - it has too many shortcomings. I would toss any resume coming my way if is is not properly written, follows the rules of Grammar, makes its points quickly and concisely, and has a general tone of competence.

It may not sound fair boys and girls, but I have the jobs, and I can hire whomever I want - my peers agree with me. Hell - they hate visible piercing and tattoos. (I don't take it quite that far). I do, however, favour ex-military - so I make up for them. heh heh - I have a boatload of them in my shop.

Cheers all

 

[oyaguy]

Web-shorthand is not, and never will be an effective method of transmitting concepts (complex or simple).

Is it really a shorthand? When I was into the whole MSN messenger thing, my friends didn't bother, just to save themselves a little time, like ignoring punctuation and the shift key. Nothing that would compare to what a stenographer, for example, is required to do. Besides, how much does your average high school student need to know to effectively transmit the various minutiae of high school crushes, break-ups, and exams to study.

I personally think {I don't use IMHO, which more effectively translates to, "Why I think you're dumb, and I am smarter than you, but don't be offended anyway"  , kidding} grammar deficiencies on the internet has seven main reasons:

1. No one is grading, no one is being marked. Nothing is riding on the outcome of this comment, my blog, etc... and if you think I am an idiot, does it really matter? I'll probably never meet you, and if we did, would either of us know it?
2. Personal ticks. To save my life, I cannot spell villain correctly. I use commas too much, I am too verbose, and my subject wanders a bit. Passive voice. etc...
3. The fact that what goes on the internet is almost always the first draft. Unless you have a doctorate in English, your first draft on everything will be crap. Even then, I bet most English professors still profreed. Reading it once over too, isn't profreeding.
4. Culture. Internet culture is different. Some good, some bad. Even this forum has its own culture. People here throw out an alphabet soup of acronyms that isn't very accessible to the layman, and without any consideration to the layman either.
5. English teachers don't actually teach everything there is about English, grammar included. Comma splices, fragments, dangling modifiers, tense shifts are a few common grammar mistakes that don't really pop up on your radar screen till you're being marked. None of these are helped by number 3.
6. The written language of English itself, is almost a language unto itself. There are conventions that do not apply to spoken English, and things that even a well educated and able speaker can get away with in spoken English, are glaringly obvious in written English. Almost any speech or quotes a person sees in the newspapers will have portions edited out, mostly the humming and hawing everyone does in normal speech.  In turn there are the various rules that don't apply to English very well. Split infinitives for example is a rule from Latin; which is a language that can never have split infinitives. I do not know any Latin, but French is similar. Avoir: to have. Avoir and French verbs are structurally impossible to split. Then there are the conventions which not even those English professors can resolve. Bridget Jones's Diary? Bridget Jones' Diary? Take your pick.
6. Then there's the fact that written English is at times completely inadequate to convey spoken speech. Sarcasm is practically impossible without resorting to [sarcasm] or other cues. In turn, written English can be subtle to the point that a person who reads a passage, and misses one comma or one word can completely change how that person perceives that passage.
7. Rose tinted glasses. There has never been forum in which everyone with a modicum of ability to write their language, could. Never. Not in the 1st century A.D., not in the 19th. century, and not in most of the 20th century. Everything written down before the late 20th century was from the best educated classes of the world.  The internet, not so much.

As for possible decline in language skills outside the internet, I think one reason might be because the standard in language ability is no longer high school but university. A Bachelors in whatever is the new High School Diploma.

Also, to Mr. Pronto. Reading can be overrated sometimes. For the longest time, I thought Pint, was pronounced like Dint with a P.


Interesting forum however.