Grammar and Sentence Structures

[pronto]

Hi All:
THIS IS NOT A TROLL - so relax, neither is it an incitement to flame war...

I do have a question, though. I have noticed the levels of grammar and sentence structure is not what we expect or learned back "in the day". I am not referring to the lack of use of a spell-checker and the usual spelling mistakes. Those can be overlooked (although maybe that's a topic for later)... It is more the basics. I have read that it can be traced to the use of cell-phones, SMS, and text-messaging. Use of shorthand, abbreviations and SMS-speak are now creeping into common usage. For instance, when did it become acceptable to write "i" as a personal pronoun rather than "I"? I must have missed that memo, but it is very common here, on other Bulletin Boards, and in MS Messenger exchanges.

If you review some of the emails here, it would appear that high school students and freshly-minted grads have very little sense of sentence structure, spelling, and have only a passing acquaintance with clarity of message. Were I a recruiter, I'd seriously question their intelligence and the education systems' "outcomes"... I know this is completely untrue, but I remain confused.

Can any of you tell me if teachers are accepting acronyms and abbreviations in schools? Do they teach grammar and spelling? My daughters speak reasonably well, but we had to educate them outside of school in grammar.

Personally, I can understand the language evolving, and changing, and I follow the gist of what is being said, but I have a hard time with my eyes... They see the mistakes and mis-interpret them as a lack of education. I know that this is not necessarily the case! How do recruiters get around this? They are of a similar age to me, and must struggle with the same issues. I have an almost 12 year old son, for whom I am concerned... His attention to spelling and grammar is, at best, enlightened boredom!  ;D Hell - in a couple of years he may be here looking for information. I would not want someone to think him unsuitable.

I suspect that this is a good place to ask the question, because there should be a good cross-section of education systems/provinces here as well as some recruiters.

Cheers!

 

[Island Ryhno]

Product of the ages I believe Pronto. I've only been out of high school for ten years and the change in communication has been enormous. "Back in the day" as you said, the internet, cell phones et al were just coming on board. Over the past decade through the use of internet, sms etc, misspelled words, self invented short hand and acronyms have become the norm in society. It seems the people who have the biggest problem with the change are those of us whom have been out of high school longer than five years. My father in law is an environmental engineer with a major company and he gets many resumes coming his way, he has stated numerous times that if the grammar etc is bad he just chucks it. If you can't put a proper sentence together...well I'm sure you get his drift. I did all advance placement courses throughout highschool, including language arts. I don't think that course was a high school requirement and in my view should be a minimum prerequisite for graduation. Also I believe anyone who goes on to post secondary education should have to do a language arts course as well, again as a minimum requirement for graduation. In the meantime, I'm LOL, and you can LMFAO.  ;D

 

[Jordan411]

Having graduated High School last year I know that they definitely look down on "internet talk". Using "i", "u", "ur" and others is definitely not acceptable in school.  I notice that most who have grown up with using the internet and messenger services are quite comfortable using the "internet talk" while others who had to learn how to use the internet later in life see it as uneducated.  Personally, I use both; it just depends on who I'm talking to.  On a different note I've seen a few translator services on the internet that make legible writing turn into "12 year old girl writing" which included excessive amounts of LOLZ OMG LMFAO PZ and all the others you can think of.

 

[Thirstyson]

Keep in mind that these are all examples of personal communications, where spelling, grammar, punctuation etc. take a back seat to efficiency.

Most people who write like this can write just fine when needed (they all passed high school writing the same essays as you did). There just isn't any incentive to write properly most of the time and many dont see it as bad form posting to a forum in this manner. I'd argue that army.ca has the LEAST amount of 1337 speak of any forum I know.

I'd even argue that it can slightly improve one's understanding languages by making someone think about grammar (and how to get away without using it) in the first place.

Basically I agree with Jordan411.

I want to fly a rofflecopter when I grow up.

ps: plz add rofflecopter to army.ca dictionary k thx by.

 

[MdB]

I agree with comments on language level. In more official communications, people tend to use a proper grammar and sentence structure. In boards, chat, SMS and the like, it's more a matter of daily and casual language. For most people, you don't speak like you write, it's much more elaborated and a higher level.

Now, I think people can write without grammar errors and not have a good sentence structure. This is due to reading. Or lack of in this case. When you read daily, or often, you can recognize sentence structure and logical development of ideas. Therefore, you more able to reuse these patterns that you're use to. You can also have a proper grammar and distinguish homonyms.

And, you guys on the english side of this site have the spell checkers, there's none on the french side. French grammar is more elaborated than the english one and you should see the horrors that come up on the board... Once, I just couldn't read what was written. ??? (love this smiley)

I'm the living proof that reading has an effect on grammar and sentence structure (though I need more practice in english) in that I can master (mostly) a foreign language and sometimes better than people whose english language is their mother one. (not sure about this structure but it would sound good in French, haha ;D)

Eh!?

 

[Kunu]

For most in my generation, the standards of grammer, spelling, capitalization, acronym use, etc. definitely shift once something is done online in any way.  From my observations, I can see the following rationale for doing so:

Efficiency: chatting with multiple people over MSN while working on an assignment and browsing some websites arguably discourages cumbersome, "unabridged" language.

Rebelling: arbitrarily going against social norms like proper spelling, grammer, capitalization, etc. is always cool; it doesn't matter how much merit the social norm has.  Has anyone noticed how many rap, oops, hip-hop artists have "bastardized" names like Ludacris, Makaveli, and Xzibit?

Conformity: I have personally been berated by friends (not seriously, of course) for my use of proper, standard English when chatting. I'm sure enough others have just decided to give in.  

Anyways, this is just two cents from a kid who is not representative of the norm in most ways, and also won/placed in a few spelling bees back in the day.

 

[pronto]

Interesting proposition - one changes one's message style based on the medium, to paraphrase: "essays inculcate proper grammar, and the internet inculcates shorthand"

I guess Marshall McLuhan was right!... The medium is the message no? > Thanks for the insights, very interesting, and certainly re-raising my hopes...

Cheers

By the way - I had an ARPA (Advanced Research Projects Agency) account, so I guess I grew up with the internet - Lord help me. For you young 'uns, ARPA was the internet before there was an internet!

 

[RossF]

1t'5 all goood,,, yo!!!11

 

[FredDaHead]

I think what needs to be realized is that "kids" (ie, young adults/late teens) consider the net and reality as different entities. Several people I know who write awefully online (1337-speak, shorthand, etc) write perfectly in real life, particularly in school or official situations. We (my generation) don't care when we're chatting online whether someone writes "u" or "you." (It bugs me personally, but generally it doesn't matter)

It doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. You can be dumb and write well, and you can be a genious and have the literary talent of a three-year old autistic child. (No offense to autistic people, I'm using it as an example)

This has all been said before, but to reiterate: online, it just doesn't matter. Especially in text messaging (MSN, or AOL--although that one might be due to the intelligence of the people using it) where you don't want to look like you could win the Pulitzer, you just want to get your point across. Considering most of the internet "chatting" that is done, is done between friends, it's just seen as useless to write very well.

Likewise, do you speak the same way with your friends as you do when speaking in public? (Well, it's possible but I doubt it)

Also, as has been previously stated, this forum has a comparatively high level of writing. People with no clue what punctuation or paragraphs are, are very rare here. (At least out of the cadet forum )

Finally, like someone else mentionned, those of us who do make an effort, are made fun of, or are just made to feel weird when other people write a 12-word sentence in 7 characters, while we type out the whole thing with proper grammar and spelling. I still try to maintain good English, but not as much as I could.

-Fred

 

[pronto]

Well, Frederick, I write as I speak, and I have done quite well, and I suspect there are more of us out there than one thinks! I speak to hundreds and sometimes thousands, and they understand me pretty well (sometimes they even ask for notes!) 

Now, if someone pokes fun at you when you write correctly, they are in error! You seem to make your points eloquently, and a hearty well done from us dinosaurs. If it bugs you personally, then just type in proper English yourself, and leave 1337 to them. Heck, I'd probably hire you before them, so there!

Just a thought for those who "see it as useless to write very well" - If you know how to type reasonably well, there is no need to write "u r a smrt dude", when "you are a smart dude" comes out just as fast! If the so-called internet generation grew up using 1337 speak, on-line chatting, and the like, then I'll bet you they can type pretty darned well.

Hang in there!

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

I'm of the "old school" where I type like I speak, however it's been interesting to hear both sides of the story. My personal take on it is, while I understand the desire for efficiency, most of the discussions here require people to set up and defend a coherent argument. Now again, I may be showing my age here, but an argument consisting of netspeak is going to generally be less credible to me than one in "longhand." I probably shouldn't carry that bias, but to me if the point's worth making, it's worth the time to write it out legibly and professionally.


Cheers
Mike

P.S. Definitely hit the spell check button on this one out of paranoia!

 

[WO2 Gubbels]

  I graduated school last year, and went back for my grade 13.  I took all the highend classes, and spelling/grammer is very important.  I admit I am not perfect, but I do use msn on a daily basis.  I find that some people use alot of short forms, they tend to over use the lol, LOL, etc, which I find very annoying.  For the most part, many of my friends write the way they speak, with a few short forms such as u, g2g, ttul8er, and btw.  Those are the only ones that comes to mind.  I never see them written in school, especially not in my classes.  But I could see that the level of spelling and grammer are totally different for the lower level classes. 

Gubbels

 

[Zombie]

Another reason to consider is software applications that auto-correct spelling mistakes as you're typing. If I spell receive wrong every time I type it, I would never know. I also think it is more difficult to write with errors than to write without. In the time it takes to decide how to incorrectly spell a word, I could have already typed it out.

I also see the use of smileys to be the same as mutilating English to save time. Instead of expressing your feeling through words, just throw in a happy face or other smiley to save you from providing the description. Not saying I don't use smileys - I definitely do - just saying it's the same thing.

 

[Island Ryhno]

I before E except after C, how's that Zombie!  ;D Here is an old school Newfoundland one for you,

Teacher: Johnny, what is a metaphor

Johnny: Cows; miss!

 

[Zombie]

I before E except after C, how's that Zombie!   ;D

It must the way I type, but every time I (intend to) type receive, it comes out recieve and gets auto-corrected and that saying runs through my brain... ;D

 

[MdB]

I probably shouldn't carry that bias, but to me if the point's worth making, it's worth the time to write it out legibly and professionally.

You are right, Sir. Do it right, or don't do it.

 

[Britney Spears]

Instead of prostituting my literacy to every little thread that comes along like the rest of you whores,  I am selective in what I read, and my rules filter out 90% of the less than useful threads and posts out there, making my army.ca experience much more enjoyable.

I don't read:

- Threads with stupid, non-descriptive titles. I don't know why this isn't in the board rules. Who the heck would read a thread titled "everyone must read this" or "HELP needed" or "Can anyone give me info"? Are you selling penis enlargement pills or Nigerian bank accounts? Sounds like it to me. In my opinion all such threads should be deleted and their authors placed on probation.

- Posts with silly abbieviations and l33tspeak.

- Posts with more than 3 different types of smilies.

- Posts that are completely lacking in attention to spelling and grammar. If you post barely intelligable chickenscratch and your name is not KevinB, I have no time to decypher it.

If I wanted to subject myself to the above stupidity I would have applied to be a mod. At least then the increased sex appeal would offset the loss of brain cells.

 

[USSRsovietsnake]

Most younger people these days don't view the internet, chat rooms or forums as being a personal form of communication so they talk to each other as if they did not need these peoples respect or need to show the result of 12+ school years to a stranger in their minds. It is probable true that when writting something on paper for school or anything else for that matter that the spelling and grammer would be much better or in the worst case at least recognizable. Concerning kids using cell phones and text messaging I'd have to say that they do not need such devices because most of their calls are to friends who live a block away.

 

[DJ]

I will admit that I do use shorthand but mainly for my own personal notes, which will be read soley by myself, or in written conversation with people who know me and also know that I'm not a complete dumbass.  Being able to communicate properly is a common indicator of intelligence; some form of vocabulary/writing is a vital component of most exams such as the CFAT. 

And from a person who has a self-diagnosed grammar/spelling editing complex: FOR THE LOVE OF WHATEVER YOU FIND HOLY, USE THE SPELLCHEKCER AND PROOF YOUR POSTS. 

DJ

 

[BDTyre]

I've noticed that in the UK, they have dubbed shorthand has "f**kwad," indicating a general dislike for its useage and a disdain for those that use it on a regular basis.

Admittedly, it does have limited uses, especially in text messagining, when you want to get a message out quickly.  Other than that, I prefer to type like I talk: properly.