GG Spending

[FSTO]

I don't think it would save THAT much angst. Even if you showed them and said "Lok, we can only carry so much food. We ran out and had to stock-up in Doha. The Qatari catering companies charge $100/meal +$100/meal in various fees and taxes. They even have rules that prevent us from just going into town and buying local food." People wouldn't care. They'd be up in arms that you spend $200/meal for a bunch of elites to go gallivanting around the world to do no more than shake hands and take pictures.

But putting up the bureaucratic wall only feeds into the suspicion.

 

[Lumber]

But putting up the bureaucratic wall only feeds into the suspicion.

Yes, so we agree in principle and practice, but disagree in scale of effect.
#dontfeedthetrolls

 

[FSTO]

Yes, so we agree in principle and practice, but disagree in scale of effect.
#dontfeedthetrolls

Adscam, WE, SNC Lavalin, Norman, Duffy, NS Shooting Inquest, etc, etc. Each time getting info from the government was like pulling hens teeth. And they wonder why more and more people are losing faith in our institutions.

 

[Lumber]

Adscam, WE, SNC Lavalin, Norman, Duffy, NS Shooting Inquest, etc, etc. Each time getting info from the government was like pulling hens teeth. And they wonder why more and more people are losing faith in our institutions.

Ahhhh, but that's the secret to a stress free coexistence with our institutions; just don't have faith in them from the get go.

 

[OldSolduer]

The PMO and Public Service (including the CAF) could save so much angst by being just a little more open about their dealings. You’d think that after Bev Oda they’d learn.

This comes up every few years - some one has stated that before. Its a political football. It enrages the masses that think the GG is spending like a drunken sailor and living high on the hog. Its good press.

 

[ueo]

So, even factoring in that major airlines are likely getting huge economies of scale by buying tens of thousands of meals each day, and also factoring in that the GG likely gets a better quality meal than your average plebe aboard a commercial airlines, you still cannot get to a price of $218 per meal unless you are adding back in the salary of the cook (which should already be factored into the cost of the meal, so you'd be adding it twice) and the salary of those serving the meal (which should be part of the flight cost, not the meal cost). It's asinine.

Seems I rrember a pub called Cost Factor Manual which gave the costs of almost every activity in the CF. If (BIG IF) it or its childrenstill exist mightthat clarify this sit?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Exactly what operational benefit does a 200$ meal provide vice that out of hay box ? If its good enough for the forces why isn't it good enough for our politicians/leaders ? Its not like these are diplomatic state dinners. Its a flight. Once on ground and acting in a diplomatic fashion I can understand, but the flight to and from, nope.

Wanna win elections and be the fav GG in history ? Pack a brown bag and make sure its seen as you hop the plane.

Share in the lives of the people and the people will endear to you. Act above and elite and they will despise you.

C.D. Howe was famous for brown bagging and taking the bus

 

[Booter]

Exactly what operational benefit does a 200$ meal provide vice that out of hay box ? If its good enough for the forces why isn't it good enough for our politicians/leaders ? Its not like these are diplomatic state dinners. Its a flight. Once on ground and acting in a diplomatic fashion I can understand, but the flight to and from, nope.

Wanna win elections and be the fav GG in history ? Pack a brown bag and make sure its seen as you hop the plane.

Share in the lives of the people and the people will endear to you. Act above and elite and they will despise you.

I wonder what the cost of the hay box meal is when they do government math on all the vehicles, fuel, transport, and prep salaries involved? That’s what I’m saying- if it’s not shown to the dollar how they arrived at an amount we can’t say it cost $200- it is a matter of quality of information.

I agree with you that 200 at lunch is dumb. Lavish isn’t even the right word- I’ve have expensive meals. I can’t even fathom what $200 at lunch should get you

 

[lenaitch]

This strikes me as typical government-style accounting, or at least expenditure reporting, much like life-cycle capital costs worked into military procurement. I don't know if it's right or wrong in terms of the 'normal practices of accounting', but it does seem to inflate the costs beyond how private industry reports.

Air Canada buys meals at a unit cost from Gategroup (former Cara). One assumes all the back of house costs are built into the unit cost to the financial satisfaction of the supplier. Why would AC factor in the costs of the cabin crew? They're not there just to serve food. Not only is it a contract purchase, it is for literally thousands of meals. Economies of scale come into play. If they had to stock up in the Middle East on short notice, of course it is going to be more expensive. I doubt the CAF has standing catering agreements with companies all over the world. No doubt they would have to pay the going rate for fuel and tank pumping as well.

If I had to try and compare costs, I would be more inclined to compare it with a large aircraft private charter.

No, I don't expect our Head of State, Head of Government or Executive to eat peanuts or brown bag it. Reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator doesn't improve the lot of the lowest.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I wonder what the cost of the hay box meal is when they do government math on all the vehicles, fuel, transport, and prep salaries involved? That’s what I’m saying- if it’s not shown to the dollar how they arrived at an amount we can’t say it cost $200- it is a matter of quality of information.

There is actually metric built into that when a Snr Cook is planning out their meals. Its different for different situations and the expected caloric burn rate of the diners. And it breaks down into $X for breakfast, $X for lunch and $X for dinner. With BMS (Between meal supplements) added in for especially caloric demanding or adverse situations.

And none of it equals $200 a plate.

We deal with this all the time on ships as we, Storesmen; order, store and sell the galley their food every day and they have a "budget" to work with which is roughly meals per day X people + at sea or along side costing variations.

This also builds the equation and result for quantities of ingredients needed per dish.

Sorry, I'm a Supply nerd.

I agree with you that 200 at lunch is dumb. Lavish isn’t even the right word- I’ve have expensive meals. I can’t even fathom what $200 at lunch should get you

Agreed.

 

[Lumber]

We deal with this all the time on ships as we, Storesmen; order, store and sell the galley their food every day and they have a "budget" to work with which is roughly meals per day X people + at sea or along side costing variations.

Exactly!

225 ppl (average) per ship x 2 coke-zeroes per day per person x # of days at sea and alongside per year (which is 365).

So, why is it so hard for you guys to keep enough coke zero aboard?!

 

[Halifax Tar]

Exactly!

225 ppl (average) per ship x 2 coke-zeroes per day per person x # of days at sea and alongside per year (which is 365).

So, why is it so hard for you guys to keep enough coke zero aboard?!

That's a world we didn't normally get involved in, NPF. But I suspect now with the demise of the STW trade I will have to start tracking that too.

 

[mariomike]

No, I don't expect our Head of State, Head of Government or Executive to eat peanuts or brown bag it.

PB and J?

Mom used to serve a mean TV dinner. But, I am not suggesting that either, Heaven forbid.

 

[Halifax Tar]

No, I don't expect our Head of State, Head of Government or Executive to eat peanuts or brown bag it. Reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator doesn't improve the lot of the lowest.

Why not ? Why not follow the A-85-269-001/FP-001 CF Food Service Manual ?

I can understand big diplomatic dinners and official functions will require a certain je ne sais quoi. But for simple in flight feeding to and from why does this require some higher form of nutrition ? What exactly are the caloric requirements of a diplomat or government official as a passenger in flight ?

 

[stoker dave]

I am not defending $200/plate lunches but I might speculate some of that cost is driven by government specifications and requirements for that lunch.

Let's suppose the government insists that the kitchen that prepares the lunch has to meet the highest quality and cleanliness standards that exist, requires control of the food supply chain to make sure that the only ingredients are from approved suppliers, there is oversight staff to make sure only those ingredients are included then the meal is sent by private security courier from the kitchen to the airport so that no one has a chance to poison the GG.

That is the kind of stuff that drives up costs of goods supplied to the government (as an engineer who occasionally works on government projects, I have seen some pretty extreme specifications for some pretty every-day goods).

If there were all kinds of requirements imposed by the government for meals served on the aircraft, someone has to cover the costs for those requirements.

Again, I am not supporting this nor do I have any facts - just speculating.

 

[YZT580]

heart to home kitchens meet all nutritional requirements and their kitchens are certified. $20. will get you anything on the menu plus two deserts and they deliver.

 

[dapaterson]

Do they deliver to Dubai, through security, and also provide the other associated ancillary services like emptying the waste and refilling the potable water onboard?

 

[mariomike]

heart to home kitchens meet all nutritional requirements and their kitchens are certified. $20. will get you anything on the menu plus two deserts and they deliver.

I think they deliver Apetito frozen.

Home

apetito HFS

www.apetito-hfs.ca

Not a food services SME, just an average taxpayer. But whatever they feed them, I doubt anything my daughter in law re-heats and serves passengers on overseas flights costs much. 🤷‍♂️

C.D. Howe was famous for brown bagging and taking the bus

The "Minister of Everything" during the war.

 

[OldSolduer]

Do they deliver to Dubai, through security, and also provide the other associated ancillary services like emptying the waste and refilling the potable water onboard?

Herein lies the cost does in not? And while we on here may understand that the average taxpayer won't.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . with the demise of the STW trade . . .

Recalling LGen Kenny's evidence in the hearing, he made much reference to the role of the "flight stewards" in the planning, liaison with airport caterers and procurement of the in-flight meals. The lack of reference to any other specific occupation, office or logistical entity could suggest (if I didn't already have some familiarity with how byzantine offshore local purchase procedures can be) the possibility that the stewards traveled with a bag of cash and haggled in the souk to get the meals during the trip. Unlikely to be sure, though I do know of occasions when flight stewards have travelled with cash.

As I commented previously the Comd RCAF didn't appear very comfortable giving evidence in that committee hearing. And while I was never close to the public rectal exam of a Commons committee questioning, the exceedingly rare time that I had to brief someone in preparation for that level, the attention to detail in ensuring the principal had an answer for every conceivable question was staggering. Kenny seemed almost embarrassingly unprepared.

Why not ? Why not follow the A-85-269-001/FP-001 CF Food Service Manual ?

I can understand big diplomatic dinners and official functions will require a certain je ne sais quoi. But for simple in flight feeding to and from why does this require some higher form of nutrition ? What exactly are the caloric requirements of a diplomat or government official as a passenger in flight ?

Or more specifically volume 4, A-85-269-001/FP-004 Flight Feeding Manual

The accounting for and scale of provision for flight feeding VIPs is was different than for the peons. CFAO 65-8 FLIGHT FEEDING POLICY used to be one of the references (I don't know if it still is), DAOD 3012-0, Food Services Operations does not list it as one of the CFAOs that were superseded. But in that ref (it was one I had in my Air Evac checklist, now decades later gathering dust on the shelf of old pubs), these applied to VIPs.

(3) for VIPs -- service and amenities equivalent to those provided in first class on commercial flights in Canada.

8. For VIP Flight. For VIP flights, where flight meals are specifically authorized by National Defence Headquarters/Director Movements (NDHQ/D Mov), foodstuffs may be provided through Service sources or purchased commercially. The provision of in-flight meals in Department of National Defence (DND) aircraft is governed by Privy Council travel guidelines. It is a squadron responsibility to budget accordingly for VIP flight feeding support. Each user unit shall maintain an auditable record of annual expenditures, ensuring that the financial limit is not exceeded.

And in the entitlement table - "Actual and reasonable expenses incurred, based on individual requirements and within budgetary limitations"