FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Cloud Cover]

Any moron can fly a plane from point A to point B on air routes unaided.  It is when you get down in a tight mountain valley doing a SAR that a Nav (and an FE and Loadies and Sar techs) becomes very useful as you try and:

A- find what you are looking for.

B- avoid hitting a mountain while doing so.

It is a team effort in an aircraft.  No one trade can do it all alone.  You may do well to remember that as you progress thru your training.

Cheers

LOL!!! Good ness , how I love this site!!~!

 

[sandhurst91]

OK... so what're these guys really doing...? me, I'm not sure what role organisations like CASARA should be playing in this..???

FYI...pulled this off the Whitehorse entry of www.c-295.ca... follow the tour links

The EADS CASA C-295 team learned about Yukon's rich aviation history and Yukon Search and Rescue (SAR) providers had a chance to see the C-295 maneuver over the lakes and mountains surrounding Whitehorse â “ as the C-295 Canadian tour continued with a two-day visit to Whitehorse.

The C-295 team hosted a reception Sunday night at the Yukon Transportation Museum, where they met pilots and spotters with the Civil Air Search and Rescue Association (CASARA) â “ Yukon, including President Gerald Bruce and the Yukon's most senior CASARA pilot Murray Biggin, also an avid aviation historian. Other guests included a group from Yukon regional airline Air North, local fire department officials and other emergency service providers, and the President of the Northern Air Transport Association, Hugh Kitchen.

The CASARA group was out in full force on Monday for a demonstration flight in the C-295 with Murray Biggin taking the right seat. The flight path took the SAR aircraft south of Whitehorse to Watson River Valley, along Gray Ridge over Bennett Lake to the Klondike town of Carcross, returning low level through several other remote mountain valleys.

With his knowledge of â Å“all-things aviationâ ? in the area, Murray guided the Spanish crew to fly over several aircraft wrecks alongside Gray Ridge, including the wreckage of an RAF Boxcar which had crashed decades ago.

The C-295 team also provided a demonstration flight to several members of the Whitehorse media. Passengers on both flights had a chance to see the C-295's superb SAR flight characteristics, including: tight mountain turns to show its excellent mountain capabilities, a demo of its adept slow flight features, down to 80 knots ground speed and maximum performance short take-offs and landings (including a short-field landing of only 900 feet). After the flight, many of the passengers gave the C-295 high marks for its SAR strengths and lauded the idea of having military SAR assets permanently positioned in northern Canada.

 

[GK .Dundas]

OK... so what're these guys really doing...? me, I'm not sure what role organisations like CASARA should be playing in this..???

FYI...pulled this off the Whitehorse entry of www.c-295.ca... follow the tour links

The EADS CASA C-295 team learned about Yukon's rich aviation history and Yukon Search and Rescue (SAR) providers had a chance to see the C-295 maneuver over the lakes and mountains surrounding Whitehorse â “ as the C-295 Canadian tour continued with a two-day visit to Whitehorse.

The C-295 team hosted a reception Sunday night at the Yukon Transportation Museum, where they met pilots and spotters with the Civil Air Search and Rescue Association (CASARA) â “ Yukon, including President Gerald Bruce and the Yukon's most senior CASARA pilot Murray Biggin, also an avid aviation historian. Other guests included a group from Yukon regional airline Air North, local fire department officials and other emergency service providers, and the President of the Northern Air Transport Association, Hugh Kitchen.

The CASARA group was out in full force on Monday for a demonstration flight in the C-295 with Murray Biggin taking the right seat. The flight path took the SAR aircraft south of Whitehorse to Watson River Valley, along Gray Ridge over Bennett Lake to the Klondike town of Carcross, returning low level through several other remote mountain valleys.

With his knowledge of â Å“all-things aviationâ ? in the area, Murray guided the Spanish crew to fly over several aircraft wrecks alongside Gray Ridge, including the wreckage of an RAF Boxcar which had crashed decades ago.

The C-295 team also provided a demonstration flight to several members of the Whitehorse media. Passengers on both flights had a chance to see the C-295's superb SAR flight characteristics, including: tight mountain turns to show its excellent mountain capabilities, a demo of its adept slow flight features, down to 80 knots ground speed and maximum performance short take-offs and landings (including a short-field landing of only 900 feet). After the flight, many of the passengers gave the C-295 high marks for its SAR strengths and lauded the idea of having military SAR assets permanently positioned in northern Canada.

I do'nt think the is the aircraft we need but they do understand sales very well! remember the car salesman's motto "either bullshit talks or money walks!"

 

[sandhurst91]

it seems the spin-doctors at DND aren't going to get forced into any kind of commitment one way or another:

http://www.c-295.ca/web/id/{C6095C13-D02F-4C5E-B116-8F0C477A7673}/content.asp

Captain Jim Hutcheson, air force public affairs officer in Ottawa, said the C-295 aircraft could "potentially be a contender for the program."

"Right now, we're in the final stages of completing the statement of operational requirement," he said.

Range, speed of the aircraft and capacity will all be considered factors in the decision, he said. The estimated budget for replacing the aircraft, including maintenance, will be $1.3 billion. Hutcheson could not comment on the feasibility of Yellowknife as a potential location for such an aircraft.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Do they really say to write to my MP...  :threat:  That is just wrong.. :skull: . Politicians should not be involved in Class A procurements...

You might find the article below, from today's Ottawa Citizen ( http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=a80c7e81-2083-47f5-9754-f7fa62b4005d ) interesting:

'Fast-tracked' search plane deal falls two years behind schedule

Liberals' lobbying forced change in tender specifications

a journalist
The Ottawa Citizen

June 5, 2005

A program to buy much-needed search and rescue planes, highlighted by Prime Minister Paul Martin as part of his commitment to revitalize the Canadian Forces and supposedly fast-tracked by government, has fallen two years behind schedule.

Part of the delay is because federal officials ordered the military to change the competition to allow a slower, cheaper aircraft to be considered for the $1.3-billion program.

Documents obtained by the Citizen show senior military officials told Defence Minister Bill Graham last August they were ready to proceed with the project, with a plan to award a contract for 15 aircraft in July 2005. Deliveries would start in late 2006, based on a timetable that required the government's approval, according to the briefing given to Mr. Graham and released to the Citizen under the Access to Information law.

An earlier schedule produced for Mr. Graham's predecessor, David Pratt, called for a contract to be awarded this month with aircraft deliveries starting in February 2006.

Air force officials now say they don't expect a contract to be awarded until the end of 2006 or early 2007. No date has been set for deliveries, but aerospace industry representatives expect those to happen in late 2008 or early 2009.

"The project has taken the time to further study the requirement and procurement strategy to ensure the program is aligned with the newly released Defence Policy Statement," noted military spokeswoman Maj. Lynne Chaloux in explaining the delay.

But government and industry officials say besides the defence policy review, the lobbying efforts of Spanish aerospace firm CASA to have its aircraft included in the competition contributed to derailing the schedule. Mr. Martin's government ordered the military back to the drawing board to come up with new aircraft requirements so CASA's C-295 transport plane could be considered. The search-and-rescue project has been a priority for the Liberal government since it was highlighted in October 2003, by then-Defence minister John McCallum.

In a rousing speech to troops in April 2004, Mr. Martin promised his government would fast-track the project, earning an ovation from appreciative military personnel. Government officials said the aircraft would be delivered 18 months after a deal was inked.

The project is to replace six Buffalo and 10 Hercules aircraft that are so old they are only available for rescue missions about 50 per cent of the time. The program had been seen in the defence industry as fairly straightforward, since the aircraft would not be outfitted with sophisticated weapon systems and planes were ready to be purchased off the shelf.

Air force officers had already identified the C-27J, built by the Italian firm Alenia, in addition to CASA's C-295 as the only aircraft to meet the requirements. Officers zeroed in on the C-27J as the best plane for search and rescue, because of its large size and speed, prompting complaints from CASA about favouritism toward it competitor.

Mr. Graham was told the minimum cruising speed needed for search and rescue, where response time is critical, would be 273 knots, about 500 kilometres an hour. CASA's aircraft has a speed of 260 knots, while the C-27J has a maximum speed of 325 knots.
The air force was also concerned about the C-295's cabin size and lack of sufficient cockpit visibility needed for rescue missions, according to military documents.

The concern was the C-295 would be too slow to reach northern areas from existing search-and-rescue bases at Greenwood, N.S., Trenton, Winnipeg, and Comox, B.C.

But aerospace and defence officials say CASA was able to override those concerns and appeal directly to Mr. Martin's desire for more of a military presence in the North. The company, a branch of the giant European consortium EADS, successfully pitched a scheme to base rescue planes in the Arctic, instead of having them fly up from existing installations.

The results of CASA's lobbying efforts materialized in the government's recent Defence Policy Statement, which noted the military would examine basing rescue planes in the Arctic. CASA argues that because its C-295 is cheaper to buy than the C-27J, the government could purchase more planes and significantly boost search and rescue capabilities.

"We believe within the existing budget of capital and in-service support, you could acquire the additional aircraft necessary to effectively revamp or enhance the (search-and-rescue) system for Canadians," said Bruce Johnston, president of EADS Canada. He said the C-295 still faces bias from some in the military.

Alenia officials declined comment on the decision to alter the aircraft requirements. But Alenia official Marcello Cianciaruso said when the government proceeds with its purchase, the company is ready to bid.

Some defence officials are not happy about altering the requirements to allow the C-295 to compete. There are concerns the cost of new search-and-rescue bases in the North will likely come out of the military's already-tight budget. There are also questions about why bases have to be built to accommodate a slower and smaller aircraft, when the C-27J would be able to reach northern destinations from current search-and-rescue bases.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005

Partisan politics play an important role in defence procurement in Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark and so on ... not quite as important as in the USA where the concerns of several key senators and congressmen always, without fail, override military operational requirements, but pretty close.

The Liberals have been pretty successful in the North over the years but the NDP is gaining ground and Ethel Blondin Andrews barely held on to her seat (50 votes, I think) last time out.  Anything which can:

"¢ Keep her on side for every vote in this minority parliament; and

"¢ Buy a few votes for her - or any Liberal - in the next general election is a good idea inside the Liberal Party of Canada.  Military operational requirements and pesky little things like being able to rescue Canadians pale in comparison.

But, I want to re-emphasize: this (partisan, local political issues driving defence procurement) is not a uniquely Canadian problem and the Liberal Party of Canada is no less guilty than the Republican Party in the USA or the Labour Party in Britain.

 

[sandhurst91]

wow! 2 articles in 2 days... Coverage seems to be heating up.... though I'm not sure how the military is saying that it has never allowed aircraft to demo on bases right after the Alenia folks confirmed they had... something seems amiss here...  is anyone planning on going to the CASA demo today in Ottawa (http://www.c-295.ca/web/id/{95BFB378-07A3-4B86-81D4-093696BF8C0D}/content.asp)

another Citizen article, though you need an online subscription to view...

Air force gives firm's sales pitch short shrift
Rescue plane maker says DND didn't show for demonstration tour
 
Mike Blanchfield
The Ottawa Citizen


June 6, 2005


One of the companies expected to bid for the $1.3-billion contract to supply a new fleet of search and rescue aircraft says the air force is thwarting its efforts to show off its plane.

The complaint comes as the Liberal government attempts this week to revive the stalled process to purchase fixed-wing search and rescue airplanes. Defence Department plans to buy a fleet of 15 new planes have essentially been on hold since late 2003, when the air force first presented its business case for the project.

Efforts are under way to get cabinet approval for the competition before Parliament breaks for the summer recess later this month. An initial $300 million has already been budgeted for the new fleet of planes.

The contract will be Canada's richest military deal since the multibillion dollar Sea King helicopter replacement contract was announced last year.

The government wants to replace its aging fleet of CC-13O Hercules and CC-150 Buffalos by 2010.

Two aircraft will be vying in what is expected to be a heated run-off for the massive federal government contract.

Italian aircraft company Alenia and Lockheed Martin Canada, the Canadian subsidiary of the huge U.S. defence contractor, have teamed up in a consortium to offer their C-27J Spartan.

EADS-CASA, a Spanish-based consortium, is offering its C-295. EADS-CASA is staging a series of test flights across the Canadian Arctic to show off its C-295.

But EADS-CASA says the air force boycotted its northern event, barring military personnel from attending demonstrations.

"We certainly want to express our disappointment and frustration," said Martin Sefzig, director of programs for EADS-CASA Canada.

"I hope the air force remains professional and objective throughout the course of the competition. But again, there's a lack of understanding on our side about why we're not supposed to show the aircraft."

Mr. Sefzig stopped short of accusing the military of being biased.

Marcello Cianciaruso, Alenia North America's search and rescue project director, said the company toured all four air force search and rescue bases in October 2003 with its C-27J Spartan.

"We've done two demo tours. We stopped on the bases of search and rescue. We went to Trenton, Winnipeg, Comox, Greenwood," said Mr. Cianciaruso.

"The people love it. First of all the pilots, it's really a step forward if you compare with the current standard. We are the only twin-engine aircraft that meets or exceeds the current requirement of the Canadian air force."

Defence Department spokesman Jay Milano confirmed the air force did not have anything to do with last week's C-295 tour.

"We're not doing anything with the company," Mr. Milano said. "We're still developing the requirements. ... This company, they can do whatever they want, and they are."

But Mr. Milano denied the military allowed any of the C-295's competitors access to its airbases.

"It would be inappropriate for any of these companies, and us, to engage in any type of activity such as that," said Mr. Milano.

Defence Minister Bill Graham has said he wants to streamline the procurement process to eliminate the long delays the military faces in buying equipment.

Mr. Graham is expected to be briefed today by military officials so he can take a proposal to cabinet in the next few weeks.

It is expected cabinet would quickly approve the start of the tendering process. That would be followed by a Defence Department announcement in July seeking submissions on a pre-qualification phase that would allow the government to assess whether companies meet the minimum requirements to be permitted to submit formal bids.

The formal request for proposals would be issued in the fall, with a winner to be announced in the fall of 2006. The first plane would be due for delivery in 2008, with the rest of the fleet following in 2010.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Two thoughts:
1)  I like the idea of northern-deployed units (arctic sovereignty) and I think CASA is right in their contention we should have that ability
2)  I still think the C-27J is the way to go for too many reasons to list

Ergo, rewrite the spec's for a package to add airframes to include the northern bases, then pick the C-27J....

Priorities:
1)  Ability to operate from rough fields
2)  Range
3)  Tactical Lift Ability
4)  Canadian Content (I love the economic spin-off from Cyclone)
5)  Total Life-Cycle Costs including Maintenance.

JMHO,



M.   

 

[aesop081]

Two thoughts:
1)   I like the idea of northern-deployed units (arctic sovereignty) and I think CASA is right in their contention we should have that ability

It is not however CASA's place to drive foreign policy in order to make a sale...which is what they are doing IMHO.  The C-27 operating from the current locations can do the same job as northern based 295s.  These are going to be SAR birds not sovereignty patrol aircrafts after all, right ? 

 

[Infanteer]

Have we decided here that the Spartan is the way to go?

 

[aesop081]

Have we decided here that the Spartan is the way to go?

I certainly hope so !

 

[sandhurst91]

It is not however CASA's place to drive foreign policy in order to make a sale...which is what they are doing IMHO.   The C-27 operating from the current locations can do the same job as northern based 295s.   These are going to be SAR birds not sovereignty patrol aircrafts after all, right ?  

Fair statement, though the way I read it, rather than attempt to drive policy (not sure why you say foreign), they seem to be attempting to interpret Canada's own national policy with respect to the North... though a policy that doesn't seem to currently coincide with reality, IMHO. As to whether or not they're going to be SAR birds not sovereignty patrol, I guess the same question could be asked if the C-27 is going to be SAR and strategic airlift also?... what's wrong with a multi-purpose aircraft, whichever way this goes?

 

[Infanteer]

what's wrong with a multi-purpose aircraft, whichever way this goes?

....because usually the concept falls on its head and we get a platform that performs a variety of tasks but none very well.

 

[aesop081]

Fair statement, though the way I read it, rather than attempt to drive policy (not sure why you say foreign), they seem to be attempting to interpret Canada's own national policy with respect to the North... though a policy that doesn't seem to currently coincide with reality, IMHO. As to whether or not they're going to be SAR birds not sovereignty patrol, I guess the same question could be asked if the C-27 is going to be SAR and strategic airlift also?... what's wrong with a multi-purpose aircraft, whichever way this goes?

Sorry...i meant defence policy......

 

[aesop081]

As to whether or not they're going to be SAR birds not sovereignty patrol, I guess the same question could be asked if the C-27 is going to be SAR and strategic airlift also?... what's wrong with a multi-purpose aircraft, whichever way this goes?

Neither one of them would make an effective sovereignty patrol A/C , IMHO....Its find and all to patrol the north with a C-27/C-295 but when you find someone who shouldnt be there, what do you do ?  None of the FWSAR contenders will carry what is required to ID and prosecute contacts viloating our borders.  The CP-140 has radar, IR/EO, ESM, IFF, the belly cam and hand-held cam to Identify and record viloators and has a belly full of weapons to deal with them should that couse of action be required.

if we want a FWSAR bird, buy a bird for that.  Patroling is a completely different mission

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

It is not however CASA's place to drive foreign policy in order to make a sale...which is what they are doing IMHO.   The C-27 operating from the current locations can do the same job as northern based 295s.   These are going to be SAR birds not sovereignty patrol aircrafts after all, right ?  

1)  As a guy who does consulting it's your job to tell your client if his fly appears to be unzipped.  Ergo, if we're missing a capability that we should have, and they see it, they have not only the right but the obligation to point it out.  The reason I assume they've gone public with it is that this has been a rigged bid from the beginning.  The Air Force knew it wanted the C-27J, and let the EADS spend millions wasting their time in order to give the appearance of it being fair.  Short Version:  I applaud EADS for raising what I see as a very valid issue.  Kudos to them.
2)  I think aircraft (as well as other assets) should be dedicated to various regional commands.  Ergo, if you are going to improve your "Northern Command" you may want to have a multi-task capable aircraft as opposed to a platform that is dedicated to only SAR.  Rename it the "Emergency Response Aircraft".  It's role is to perform SAR as well as to provide emergency tactical lift to either civilian or military specialists should the need arise.  You then pair the aircraft with suitable response teams in each command.  In B.C. you may build a couple of response teams:  Mountain Team (Paratroopers) and a Ultralight Mechanized Team (using our new ATV's where you at least have logging roads).  In the north, you could build air-transportable teams based on snowmobiles (C-27J) or BV-206S (C-130).

Bottom Line:  I don't like niching when it means we specialize to a point we come to a crisis and say "Crap, we really don't have a contingency plan for that....".

That's just me....



M. 

P.S.  Almost forgot....I don't think either plane would make an effective sovereignty patrol aircraft.

 

[Inch]

Blackshirt, I take it you don't know a whole lot about SAR. Let me give you an example of how dedicated SAR is. When we're doing overwater flights in the Sea King we require SAR backup, we have to hold our own SAR backup because of the unavailability of the Cormorants since they're dedicated SAR aircraft. You'd think that since it's a military asset and a SAR asset that they could send a Cormorant to Shearwater to hang out for the period that we require SAR backup. Not the case since if they get called out for a civilian SAR, they'll leave us high and dry. So we hold our own SAR backup which really sucks when there's only one aircraft avail. We've lost more missions here because of no SAR backup than I care to count.

So tell me again how you think that multi tasking a SAR asset is a good idea? It will not happen, I guarantee it. One loss of life and the public will pin the blame squarely on the lack of avail SAR assets due to them being occupied elsewhere.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Blackshirt, I take it you don't know a whole lot about SAR. Let me give you an example of how dedicated SAR is. When we're doing overwater flights in the Sea King we require SAR backup, we have to hold our own SAR backup because of the unavailability of the Cormorants since they're dedicated SAR aircraft. You'd think that since it's a military asset and a SAR asset that they could send a Cormorant to Shearwater to hang out for the period that we require SAR backup. Not the case since if they get called out for a civilian SAR, they'll leave us high and dry. So we hold our own SAR backup which really sucks when there's only one aircraft avail. We've lost more missions here because of no SAR backup than I care to count.

So tell me again how you think that multi tasking a SAR asset is a good idea? It will not happen, I guarantee it. One loss of life and the public will pin the blame squarely on the lack of avail SAR assets due to them being occupied elsewhere.

Just my opinion, but I think you are confusing two separate issues.   The real issue is we're short airframes in your specific region and it's obviously impacting operations which is justifiably pissing people off.   If the Air Force had procured another 3-6 air frames (rather than cutting the contract to the bone), and based at least one Cormorant permanently in Shearwater (as well as other holes in coverage zones), you wouldn't have a problem at all....

Bottom Line:   If we had the proper number of airframes per region to allow for redundancies and downtime for maintenance, would it not make sense to build in additional functionality including light tactical transport which would allow the CF to address all sorts of civilian/military emergency response needs?



Matthew.    ???

P.S.  My typing today sucks!!!!  ;D

 

[Sam69]

Neither one of them would make an effective sovereignty patrol A/C , IMHO....Its find and all to patrol the north with a C-27/C-295 but when you find someone who shouldnt be there, what do you do ?  None of the FWSAR contenders will carry what is required to ID and prosecute contacts viloating our borders.  The CP-140 has radar, IR/EO, ESM, IFF, the belly cam and hand-held cam to Identify and record viloators and has a belly full of weapons to deal with them should that couse of action be required.

A belly full of weapons? I take you are referring to the Mk46 Mod 5 A(S)? Not too useful for prosecuting very many contacts in the north...

;D

Sam

 

[sandhurst91]

The C-27 operating from the current locations can do the same job as northern based 295s.   These are going to be SAR birds not sovereignty patrol aircrafts after all, right ?  

Aesop, I also don't think you're correct in your assumption re operating from the same location... The way I read it from the c-295.ca site is that the issue is response time, not speed. ANY aircraft now takes 8 hours to fly from Trenton to Inuvik - forgetting all other factors. If you take the same aircraft and place it in Yellownife, the response time is reduced to 3 hours (thereabouts). This applies equally to c130, C27 and C295. Do the math - it is half the distance from YK to Inuvik than TR to Inuvik (at least). Thus response time is cut in half - a pretty good deal if you are the poor bastard waiting for rescue in the arctic.  

So all that equal, and performance being equal (which is where some of the questions still remain unanswered), and the costs involved in buying a fleet of C-295's being sufficiently less than the C-27's thereby allowing you to cover the cost of maintaining aircraft in the north (according to the CASA folks)... putting aircraft in the north, IMHO, seems a good idea...

Why would the c-27 boys be against this?

 

[aesop081]

A belly full of weapons? I take you are referring to the Mk46 Mod 5 A(S)? Not too useful for prosecuting very many contacts in the north...

;D

Sam

Ok..i should have worded that better. The Mk46 mod 5 torp is the obvious ( useful if we find hostile subs in the northwest passage) but the BRU-12 and BRU-15 bob racks can carry other things than torps can they not (i.e AGM-84 Harpoon, SLAM, Mk-84 bombs.....) ?

Aesop, I also don't think you're correct in your assumption re operating from the same location... The way I read it from the c-295.ca site is that the issue is response time, not speed. ANY aircraft now takes 8 hours to fly from Trenton to Inuvik - forgetting all other factors. If you take the same aircraft and place it in Yellownife, the response time is reduced to 3 hours (thereabouts). This applies equally to c130, C27 and C295. Do the math - it is half the distance from YK to Inuvik than TR to Inuvik (at least). Thus response time is cut in half - a pretty good deal if you are the poor bastard waiting for rescue in the arctic.  

So all that equal, and performance being equal (which is where some of the questions still remain unanswered), and the costs involved in buying a fleet of C-295's being sufficiently less than the C-27's thereby allowing you to cover the cost of maintaining aircraft in the north (according to the CASA folks)... putting aircraft in the north, IMHO, seems a good idea...

Why would the c-27 boys be against this?

Granted that the response time is an issue we face now but i would caution you about taking CASA's website  as a source of anything, after all they are trying to sell us something in competition with someone else. On the issue of cost, if the C-295 is cheaper to purchasse but we need to build instalations for it in the north, where's the saving ? What CASA fails to demonstrate clearly is the cost of establishing infrasructure up north.