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FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

Wizard of OZ

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thanks inch

I am getting shelled in another post for playing devils advocate.

I figured on the cyclone conversion because how much more would it cost to tack on some to the new order as opposed to ordering another batch of the Corms

 

Inch

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Wizard of OZ said:
thanks inch

I am getting shelled in another post for playing devils advocate.

I figured on the cyclone conversion because how much more would it cost to tack on some to the new order as opposed to ordering another batch of the Corms

Dissimilar aircraft in different communities is fine (MH vs SAR) since we don't interrelate that much, dissimilar aircraft doing the same job (ie SAR) is a logistical pain in the arse.

Keep in mind that our Cyclones will have all the ASW kit which is part of the order, if you go changing what equipment is going to come onboard, you might as well get Cormorants.
 

COBRA-6

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Zoomie, you said the twin otters in yellowknife are painted yellow and carry no sartechs. Are these aircraft going to be replaced by the new SAR platform as well?? How much SAR use do they get up there usualy? With the increase of human activity in/over the arctic would it be a good idea to add a SAR det up there?? Just currious...
 

Inch

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Wizard of OZ said:
To true good point.

Is the Corm a good bird?

Can't say with any certainty, I've never flown one. All I know is that the Sea Kings were picking up the SAR slack on the coasts while the CH149s were grounded for tail rotor hub cracks.  From what I've heard from my buddies flying them, they're pretty good other than a few growing pains, but that's second hand info so take it or leave it.  I'm optimistic that the Cyclones won't have similar problems though I'm sure there'll be a few, there always are with aircraft.
 

Wizard of OZ

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Yea like any new model there are always the re-calls.

Hope it won't be a painful experience though.

 

404SqnAVSTeach

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The C-27J Spartan is most likely the next SAR fixed wing aircraft.  For example, here in greenwood, we have the cormorant and the Herc for SAR.  Switching the Herc to the Spartan would make sense.  From Four engines to two... cheaper to run.  But up in Yellow Knife; the twin otter is the only certified plane to work in the Arctic.  That Italian bird will probably piss hydraulics from all ends.

design_for_military_success2.jpg
 

404SqnAVSTeach

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Not sure... Typed C-27J Spartan on google, check in images and I simply right click on the picture and picked "copy image location".  I use Mozilla Firefox, a lot better the Explorer.

Wait a minute...
Just did it to the picture I sent.... http://www.c-27j.ca/index.php?lang_id=1
enjoy...
 

sandhurst91

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The battle appears to be joined.... http://www.c-295.ca

EADS CASA looks to have put some thought into their business plan...
 

Zoomie

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That site is full of misnomers and misdirection - I highly recommend that none of you endorse their plan as it would be bad news for my community. 

They (EADS-CASA) are trying to make up for their aircrafts short-falls by proposing that we have new airforce bases across the Arctic.  Maybe this sort of double-talk worked for when the Government was suckered into buying the LSVW - let's not allow it to happen here. 

I responded to their website and addressed a few of my concerns with their plan.  My primary question was who was going to pay the billions in infrastructure and personnel costs for the establishment of the new facilities and hangar space required at all these northern airfields.

This whole plan stems from the fact that their propsed FWSAR aircraft does not meet the basic requirement of being able to fly fast enough.  All they are doing is getting the procurement plan mired in paperwork and this will soon become our new Sea-King replacement fiasco.  As it is, we have been told to extend the life of the Buff until at least 2012 - totally unacceptable!
 
A

aesop081

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Zoomie said:
  As it is, we have been told to extend the life of the Buff until at least 2012 - totally unacceptable!

Holly f*** !!!
 

sandhurst91

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OK, so took some time last night to read the site, so am playing devil's advocate on a few points here...

So if you put one or two aircraft in Yellowknife, Iqaluit and St. John's (if that's what is implied here), then doesn't speed essentially drop off the equation given that they're saying it takes 12 hours to do the run to Tuktoyuktuk (under the current scenario - where would that aircraft come from - Winnipeg, Comox??), whereas if they had an aircraft in Yellowknife, you're cutting the response time down to next to nothing... If speed is really the only difference, and their costing allows this, then its really only a matter of how much we save on purchase price that can be applied to support the cost of putting a plane or two in each of these locations, no? Does this require entirely new facilities? I'm also intrigued by their line on the US Coast Guard which had Lockheed recommend the CASA airframe (in this case, the CN-235) as their solution and not the 27J...

Interested in learning more...



 

sandhurst91

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Interesting article...

El Pais: Spanish military deal with Venezuela is largest on record (La operacion mas importante de la industria militar espanola).

30 March 2005
The Financial Times

The deal negotiated between Spanish defense minister Jose Bono and the Venezuelan government on January 25, for the Spanish division of European aeronautic defence and space company EADS and Spanish public shipyard operator Navantia to supply military hardware to the Venezuelan armed forces, is the largest in the history of the Spanish military industry. According to official sources, the deal is worth 1.3bn euros, but the companies say that the true value will depend on Venezuela's exact requirements.

EADS' Spanish division will supply Venezuela with 12 military aircraft, comprising 10 C-295 transport craft and two C-235 sea patrol aeroplanes. Navantia will provide eight military vessels and three civil ships.

 

404SqnAVSTeach

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Politics: 5 April 2005, Tuesday.

Bulgaria is to purchase eight C-27J Spartan Tactical Transport Aircrafts from Italy, the Italian media revealed.

Canada is to buy 15 aircrafts of the same type, Greece - 12, Portugal - ten, and the Czech Republic - four.

The C-27J has been developed by Lockheed Martin Alenia Tactical Transport Systems (LMATTS).

LMATTS is a joint venture company set up by Lockheed Martin and Alenia Aeronautica, which is part of the Finmeccanica company of Italy.

The C-27J Spartan has the same logistical and maintenance characteristics of the Lockheed Martin C-130J Hercules Medium Tactical Airlifter, and also shares commonality of the cargo capacity.

The primary roles of the C-27J are cargo transport, troop transport and material and paratroop air drop. Other missions include maritime patrol, tactical operations, medical evacuation, ground refuelling, fire-fighting and aerial spraying.

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=46362
 

Wizard of OZ

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Zoomie said:
That site is full of misnomers and misdirection - I highly recommend that none of you endorse their plan as it would be bad news for my community.  

They (EADS-CASA) are trying to make up for their aircrafts short-falls by proposing that we have new airforce bases across the Arctic.   Maybe this sort of double-talk worked for when the Government was suckered into buying the LSVW - let's not allow it to happen here.  

I responded to their website and addressed a few of my concerns with their plan.   My primary question was who was going to pay the billions in infrastructure and personnel costs for the establishment of the new facilities and hangar space required at all these northern airfields.

This whole plan stems from the fact that their propsed FWSAR aircraft does not meet the basic requirement of being able to fly fast enough.   All they are doing is getting the procurement plan mired in paperwork and this will soon become our new Sea-King replacement fiasco.   As it is, we have been told to extend the life of the Buff until at least 2012 - totally unacceptable!

First i am assuming you don't want the C-295, that is what i am getting out of your post.   If so then i back you on that one.   Not another hey we can build it cheaper and less stuff for ya purchase i thought they would have seen through that on the Cyclone but guess not.  the only way i could see this going through would be if we were to be getting some of the A 400 for dirt cheap prices to make up for the lack of call it capability of the C-295.  But i don't see that happening

Second till 2012 what do they expect duc tape wings and bondo bodies god what a joke, the people that make these decisions should be forced to fly/drive/sail in the equipment they make us keep for well past its retirment date.

sorry for the rant but good lord that kinda stuff piss me off.



 

sandhurst91

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I have to say that until I'm entirely clear on the "lack of capability" that you describe, I'm ready to support a proposal that puts more aircraft where they need to be... and if it saves me money and we get comparable functionality, so be it.  If the issue is purely about speed, then I'm not convinced.

National Post printed an article today, it seems - can't access it via the web (restricted to subscribers) but the folks at www.c-295.ca put up a synopsis (though I wonder what they left out? Has anybody else read it?)

Here what EADS CASA put on the site.

----------------------------------------------------

In an in-depth discussion with Martin Sefzig, Canadian representative for EADS-CASA, National Post correspondent Chris Wattie outlines the business case behind the company's solution for Canada's new search-and-rescue aircraft.

The article explores EADS-CASA's proposal for replacing Canada's current fleet of fixed-wing SAR aircraft, specifically the Canadian Forces' ageing CC-130 and CC-150 Buffalos, with CASA's C-295 aircraft.

In the article, Sefzig suggests that the C-295's lower purchase price and life-cycle costs would mean that the military could buy more aircraft and situate them in more locations, thereby enhancing its rescue coverage across the country and, in particular, in the Arctic.

"Based on the economic efficiencies our aircraft offers, we could provide the Canadian government with the option to think beyond what they currently have ... to greatly increase the current search-and-rescue coverage and also for sovereignty patrols," Wattie quotes Mr. Sefzig as saying. "With our aircraft, you could actually double the current coverage."

Wattie writes that Canada's search-and-rescue fleet must be able to respond to distress calls over 15.5 million square kilometres. However, Sefzig asserts that by situating the C-295 in Yellowknife, St. John's and Iqaluit, the military would be able to cover remote locations that now take up to 10 hours for southern-based rescue aircraft to reach. Sefzig adds that the C-295 is well suited for this role. "Our aircraft is already certified for the North.... It has been cold-weather tested for Arctic flights."

Wattie also quotes Sefzig as saying that Northern-situated aircraft would be able to serve multiple roles, including search-and-rescue and sovereignty patrols.
 

Zoomie

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sandhurst91 said:
I have to say that until I'm entirely clear on the "lack of capability" that you describe, I'm ready to support a proposal that puts more aircraft where they need to be... and if it saves me money and we get comparable functionality, so be it.   If the issue is purely about speed, then I'm not convinced.

Did you read the rest of my diatribe?  CASA-EADS proposes us buying MORE planes and building NEW airbases.  How is this cheaper?  Not only that - we would be stretched pretty thin for aircrew and maintainers - what we have now works.

99% of all SAR call-outs happen below the 60th parallel...  What CASA-EADS proposes is akin to placing a police department, fire hall and hospital in every location where there is a 1% chance of an occurence happening.
 
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