Friendship and social life in the CAF

[Teen_Cadet]

Hey everybody, I've been around here for a while an I've posted a few questions and got great feedback so far. So I'm going to give this a shot. I hope it is not a silly or offensive question.

I have read a lot about how you can find camaraderie in the forces that you don't find anywhere else, and how strong the brotherhood is between the troops in combat arms jobs. What I'm wondering is, do officers feel this brothers in arms type of camaraderie between themselves and their soldiers/fellow officers? I think it would beige difficult since you are supposed to be more detached and a "boss" to them.

However, I have heard of soldiers admiring their officers who have been good leaders and treated the men well, and that Te officer is grateful is for his troops; so is this the most usual/common relationship between officers and soldiers/fellow officers?

I'm wondering because I am very interested in being an officer in the CF, and the camaraderie is one of my big reasons, among many others.

I've been wondering about this for awhile and have been kind of embarrassed to ask, because I'm told by my friends and family (who aren't affiliated with the military) to not worry about it. I'd just like to understand the concept, since all articles and documentaries I've read/watched only cover the bonds between ncm's.

Thank you for your time.

 

[JorgSlice]

Brotherhood does not stop at officers.

 

[NSDreamer]

Brotherhood does not stop at officers.

To be fair it is kind of different though. Between troops and officers it's more of an 'old man' relationship if you're doing it right in my opinion, that being said still 'family'. Of course I'm as eloquent as a shot gun round so someone else can probably explain this better.

Between Officers, Mars excluded  > , we're pretty tight.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Brotherhood does not stop at officers.

Agreed...and brotherhood does not stop at the 'combat arms jobs'. Like anything else in life, it is what you make of it but I think it is because you share so much whether deployed or working in an 8-4 posting (are there any of those left!). Everything that happens in the work place, good and bad, is shared amongst all so the burden is shared...generally. The people you meet are an extended family and in some cases I suspect for those who have served in active combat roles, even more. You aren't taught this nor can you go 'looking' for it; it just happens. I always tell people that the thing that sets us apart from any other organization is that single word we all carry on our shoulder, no matter where we are, what uniform we wear, how cold or hot it is, that is ALWAYS there. It is what is behind that word; the history, the traditions, the loyalty and the pride that pulls us together. I have seen bitter rivals become stalwart allies in the face of diversity and that is something you will be hard pressed to find anywhere else. The old recruiting tag line "It's more than just a job" is more than just a tag line.
My thoughts on this Sunday morning.

Pat

 

[GnyHwy]

I believe it comes down to sharing the same experiences.  Like real brothers come from the same town, grew up in the same neighborhood and had most of the same hardships, they understand each other like no other can.

In the military it is the same, even though you are not blood related.  The sharing of experiences, especially in the combat arms where those experiences may be hellish, the camaraderie is even greater.  Camaraderie can certainly come from good experiences as well, such as winning a competition, but I believe it is a stronger bond when the experience is more negative.

This can easily translate for Os to NCMs.  It depends on if they are sharing the experience, good and bad.  If an O is consistently engaged with their troops and is with them through thick and thin, they will be included in the group.  If the O is disengaged, and only shows up for the highlights, they will most certainly not be part of the group.

Now of course, some persons would say that the O or higher NCM should stay disengaged because they are the boss, but they are wrong.   A good and strong leader can be part of the group and discipline if necessary. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

As with any human organization, one must be alert for the backstabbers. Fortunately, there's a game that will help you practise this important activity in a military context  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf2Z7uaCz1I

 

[Teen_Cadet]

Thanks for all the feedback it was very reassuring. If I was to be an officer I would definitly want to endure with them and form those bonds. I appreciate the constructive responses.

 

[NSDreamer]

Thanks for all the feedback it was very reassuring. If I was to be an officer I would definitly want to endure with them and form those bonds. I appreciate the constructive responses.

Let me just add, if you're joining as an officer, grow rhino thick skin. The first few years while you're OCdt, 2Lt and even Junior Lt you are going to get hazed razzed almost non stop. Take it in stride and appreciate that this is your NCMs and NCOs way of making sure they can trust you in time. It's just part of the process.

 

[cbak11s]

Let me just add, if you're joining as an officer, grow rhino thick skin. The first few years while you're OCdt, 2Lt and even Junior Lt you are going to get hazed razzed almost non stop. Take it in stride and appreciate that this is your NCMs and NCOs way of making sure they can trust you in time. It's just part of the process.

Do you know where I can buy this 'rhino skin' ? 

 

[NSDreamer]

Do you know where I can buy this 'rhino skin' ? 

The good Sgts and MCpls on your CAP/BMOQ-L keep plenty in store, but they really make you work for it. :nod:

 

[pbi]

Sage advice from all posters on here. Having lived on both sides of "The Fence", I'd lke to add a few personal observations on this ancient and honourable relationship. (You've probably heard them all before...)

-You can't demand the respect of Canadian soldiers: you can only earn it. The law allows you to demand lawful obedience; custom and practice allow you to expect deference and even courtesy, but any officer who wants to be respected has to work for it. Respect is the hardest thing to win and the easiest thing to lose;

-You're not their buddy. Sometimes, in some cases, you can form close relationships with subordinates (I enjoyed at least one, with one of my CSMs), but don't go drooling around trying to be the Nice Guy that everybody thinks is cool. It will blow back on you, believe me; and

-for God's sake, listen to your WOs and NCOs. They have done many things, many times, and they usually know where the traps and pitfalls are. Besides that, they are a lot closer to the troops than you will ever be. By "listen" I don't mean automatically do whatever they say. I mean seek them out, ask them questions, and hear what they are telling you. Then, you decide. You are the boss, so you make the call. As an officer, I always found that NCOs were ready to accept this approach if you were genuine about it, even if the decision wasn't what they had hoped for. As an NCO, I was usually pleasantly surprised when an officer asked me anything other than "WO, have you seen my rifle?"

I hope that helps. Good luck.

 

[Teen_Cadet]

Thank you, all these posts have been extremely helpful, and very interesting to read. I have definitely taken this all to heart, and will remember it all if I am lucky enough to get in to the Canadian Forces.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

I wholeheartedly agree with everything that pbi said.

I have always maintained a familiar relationship with my soldiers and NCO's and it worked for me, it doesn't work for everyone.  Be genuine in all that you do, because what works for one doesn't work for others in their command style and approach.

With the familiar style I had with my subordinates such as playing cards or seeing how they were doing, there were still boundaries I maintained and lines I did not cross because in the end the professional relationship had to be maintained.  My soldiers always knew that I was easy going and just loved shooting the poop with them, but they always knew that when it was time to work and a job had to be done I didn't mess around.  I had high expectations of them and myself and would hold to those expectations.  At times my Coy Comd's would pull me aside and question if I was spending too much time around my soldiers, but in the end I explained my command style and approach and that it worked for me and my personnel.  I had the great fortune of having OC's that would understand this and give me the latitude to apply my command style because it worked for me very well.  I can honestly say the bond that was formed with soldiers and NCO's alike in my Platoon still exists to this day and I would have gone to hell and back for my guys and they would have done the same for me.  It took time, but the camaraderie was present and still is, it's just a little different when in reference to the officer < - > NCO/NCM relationship vice the soldier to soldier relationship.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

As an NCO, I was usually pleasantly surprised when an officer asked me anything other than "WO, have you seen my rifle?"

...and of course the good NCO's knew exactly where it was secured but wanted to see if the officer had the moxie to ask.

 

[pbi]

...and of course the good NCO's knew exactly where it was secured but wanted to see if the officer had the moxie to ask.

Actually, I have to confess...one time I hid it. And his webgear. I will probably go to one of the deepest circles of the Inferno (right above the one for politicians...)

 

[dennmu]

Now I'm prepared to get some backlash on this topic, in fact i look forward to it.

Now before i start, please be advised I'm still a pup when it comes to the military. I wish I had of joined when I was eighteen rather then thirty-two, maybe  then i would have seen the level of camaraderie that i have heard so much about. Now I'm not saying there is no camaraderie in the forces, but i have noticed a major decline. It would seem to me, that the newer and younger generations have little to no understanding of what it means to truly work as a team, to befriend one another and support each other.

I have talked to many of the older generations, I hear the stories of how close everyone was, how supportive everyone was. I look around and i see little, to none of this now. I live in the PMQ's, and I can't get so much as a hello, let alone someone helping out with shoveling snow. I have heard stories of how great the mess was and how you worked hard and played hard with each other. I go to the mess, and it's dead. Worse off when we have a meeting, it's the only time the troops have been there, and most of the time not by choice. I end up hearing people complaining about the mess that they never attend,  and how they have to pay into it, it should be a choice.

I'm a little older, i like traditions and embrace them. I believe, in order to know where one is going, they need to understand where they have been. So i ask the older generations, what does it take to build the camaraderie of old, and what can i do to help. Help me and the next generation, build what seems to be lost, and carry on what is and should be, a familiarity of friendship and support for each other, a bond and devotion like no other.

 

[mariomike]

So i ask the older generations, what does it take to build the camaraderie of old, and what can i do to help.

A couple of discussion that may help.

Camaraderie and brotherhood in the CF.
https://army.ca/forums/threads/111347.0

Fellowship, fraternity/brotherhood and Camaraderie in non-combat arms trades?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/86552.0/nowap.html

 

[Jarnhamar]

Necessity is the bane of tradition.


Times have changed and the 'mess life' has fallen out of favor.  Mess functions are viewed as forced events where younger members have to show up just to listen to older generations (if you will) talk about the halcyon days of old and how much the new generation sucks. 


All you need to do is organize some events for your immediate team. 
Skip PT one morning and do a section or platoon breakfast at a local restaurant.
Set up a Sunday morning bowling event for the kids of your platoon members, go to the dollar store and buy a bunch of prize.
Try to put together a platoon team for a Spartan Race.
Organize a trip to the local shooting range.
Platoon BBQ

It would seem to me, that the newer and younger generations have little to no understanding of what it means to truly work as a team, to befriend one another and support each other.

I bet that's news to the newer younger generation who deployed in and out of Afghanistan for 12 years working as a team covering each others backs.

 

[dennmu]

Thank you for your responses. I appreciated any advice.

I bet that's news to the newer younger generation who deployed in and out of Afghanistan for 12 years working as a team covering each others backs.

When I speak of younger generations, I mean those who have yet to be deployed and are still getting there feet wet. Combat arms have it running through there blood ( which I am secretly jealous of) and have learned the true meaning comadery through training and deployment. I would not place them in this topic. 

 

[George Wallace]

To put it bluntly, THE MESS is what YOU make it.  If you don't see and use the opportunities offered by the Mess, then of course it will suck.  It is the membership who make the Mess, not the building.  If your Mess sucks, it is the people who make up the Mess who suck. 

One of the best Messes I was ever in was a tiny room in Aldershot.  What made it great, were the people who frequented it.