Friendship and social life in the CAF

[dennmu]

To be a little more clearer. What i would like to see is a hightened level of camaderie in all the forces, regardless of element, training, or depolyment. I understand that those that have faught together are close, and thus have created great bonds and love for each other. I am more referring to camaraderie as a whole, here at home. Also, like I said I'm still just a pup, if I say anything out of context, please forgive me as that is not my intent, but by all means fill me in, the more I learn the less ignorant I am

 

[Messorius]

To be a little more clearer. What i would like to see is a hightened level of camaderie in all the forces, regardless of element, training, or depolyment. I understand that those that have faught together are close, and thus have created great bonds and love for each other. I am more referring to camaraderie as a whole, here at home. Also, like I said I'm still just a pup, if I say anything out of context, please forgive me as that is not my intent, but by all means fill me in, the more I learn the less ignorant I am

I would say you should try to be the change you want to see.  I've noted some of the things you've brought up in the mess I belong to; a lot of members asking why they should pay dues(although the people who moan about how much better things used to be and then do nothing to improve it is what really bugs me, particularly when they piss on the new kids; that'll sure encourage them). 

If you want things to happen, boost for it. Volunteer. Be positive when things do happen.  We've had some successful events this year, and it all comes down to people working their butts off.  Outside of your Mess, find other things that are going on.  I don't know what it's like in Sydney, but in Halifax there's all kinds of extra-curricular stuff on the go.

 

[dimsum]

Proximity has something to do with it as well.  If most people live far enough from the base that going to Mess becomes a chore, most won't go.  Also, in some areas esp near cities, members may not live near each other.  I'm not saying that we have to live in PMQs or such near the base (I completely understand the need to separate between "work" and "home" life), but that distance will decrease Mess membership.

I personally still try to go to Mess though, if nothing more than for networking purposes.  It's a great place to just talk to people you wouldn't normally talk to at work (about work or otherwise).  People in the business world pay to do that stuff, while we have the opportunity and many choose not to take it.

 

[trustnoone73]

Now before i start, please be advised I'm still a pup when it comes to the military. I wish I had of joined when I was eighteen rather then thirty-two, maybe  then i would have seen the level of camaraderie that i have heard so much about. Now I'm not saying there is no camaraderie in the forces, but i have noticed a major decline. It would seem to me, that the newer and younger generations have little to no understanding of what it means to truly work as a team, to befriend one another and support each other.

I have talked to many of the older generations, I hear the stories of how close everyone was, how supportive everyone was....

I'm a little unclear on what you mean by "have noticed a major decline."  I know 2013 was an incredible year for mess steeple chase and crud. We are not likely to see those days again.  Well, maybe in 2015 we'll get some euchre going.

You've heard a few stories, maybe watched "Tunes of Glory" but I hate to burst your bubble it hasn't been like that in a very long time, at least not in the regs.  PRes in my experience has a much better mess culture.  Night time, a captive audience, and beer money goes a long way.  The other messes seem to be those that share a common hardship.  One of the best messes I've been a member of was in Wainwright.  Again captive audience.   

In the good old days more people lived on base or lived in which leads to the captive audience theme again. The more remote or foreign the better.  Living in better communities, off base, reasonable standard of living with families all detract from the mess and the camaraderie you speak of.  Being a decade older than your peers won't make it easier and your trade or at least the size of the trade matters somewhat.  If you are one of one vice one of thirty, bonding may be harder but that doesn't necessarily follow that there is a lack of teamwork or community.

One thing I've learned though is that mess culture and camaraderie can't be forced and saving the 'New Generation' from themselves is not likely to meet with much luck.  It is what it is. 

 

[a_majoor]

Camaraderie is expressed much differently these days.

I have been around long enough to remember when the first thing anyone did when there was a bit of down time was to pull out a deck of cards and get a game of eucher going. Now, the second there is down time, everyone reaches into a pocket, pulls out a smart phone and does their own thing on line (even in the deepest woodlines of Wainwright in MR 14, you could see people wandering around looking for the best avaiable signal. Try to talk to someone in the DFAC and you are almost garunteed to get a "huh?" response as they look up from a phone. (It is even sillier when they look up from the phone to comment on a news story they just read while you are watching the same story on the big screen TV in the DFAC).

Much of the time, they are actually texting friends and acquaintences, looking at and responding to social media sites, playing on line games with like minded others etc....

Combined with the reality that most people live off base and are going home to families, or living in an economy which offers a plethora of choices and you can see why institutions like the mess have died out in many bases (and why people would be resentful of being forced to pay into something which has absolutely no bearing on their lives). Even arguments like networking are moot when you can "network" with far more people and far more effectively on line.

As for not even getting to hello in the PMQ patch, you can get that just as easily in an apartment building or suburban neighbourhood in the economy as well. There are many complex historical and sociological reasons why this is so, you are up against an entire culture here, and I am not sure where the solution lies.

 

[MilEME09]

Camaraderie is expressed much differently these days.

I have been around long enough to remember when the first thing anyone did when there was a bit of down time was to pull out a deck of cards and get a game of eucher going. Now, the second there is down time, everyone reaches into a pocket, pulls out a smart phone and does their own thing on line (even in the deepest woodlines of Wainwright in MR 14, you could see people wandering around looking for the best avaiable signal. Try to talk to someone in the DFAC and you are almost garunteed to get a "huh?" response as they look up from a phone. (It is even sillier when they look up from the phone to comment on a news story they just read while you are watching the same story on the big screen TV in the DFAC).

Much of the time, they are actually texting friends and acquaintences, looking at and responding to social media sites, playing on line games with like minded others etc....

Combined with the reality that most people live off base and are going home to families, or living in an economy which offers a plethora of choices and you can see why institutions like the mess have died out in many bases (and why people would be resentful of being forced to pay into something which has absolutely no bearing on their lives). Even arguments like networking are moot when you can "network" with far more people and far more effectively on line.

As for not even getting to hello in the PMQ patch, you can get that just as easily in an apartment building or suburban neighbourhood in the economy as well. There are many complex historical and sociological reasons why this is so, you are up against an entire culture here, and I am not sure where the solution lies.

I must be one of the few that only have a phone on me on an EX for emergencies, being only 22 i must be a rare breed, a deck of cards and a small radio can go a long way while you have lots of down time.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Maybe it is a generational thing, but if it is a new phenomenom, it doesn't mean it's automatically something that needs to be corrected.

I'm one of those guys that only goes to the mess on order. Frankly the whole thing bores me and I never had time for drinking culture. I go to work, do a good job and at the end of the day, the thought of spending more time talking about military stuff or gossiping doesn't cross my mind. I much rather get home to my wife and spend time with her.

From my perspective, the people who go straight from work to the mess to talk more about work are the unhealthy ones. They need to get a life outside of the military.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Maybe it is a generational thing, but if it is a new phenomenom, it doesn't mean it's automatically something that needs to be corrected.

I'm one of those guys that only goes to the mess on order. Frankly the whole thing bores me and I never had time for drinking culture. I go to work, do a good job and at the end of the day, the thought of spending more time talking about military stuff or gossiping doesn't cross my mind. I much rather get home to my wife and spend time with her.

From my perspective, the people who go straight from work to the mess to talk more about work are the unhealthy ones. They need to get a life outside of the military.

Thank you Dr. Phil :

 

[dimsum]

Maybe it is a generational thing, but if it is a new phenomenom, it doesn't mean it's automatically something that needs to be corrected.

I'm one of those guys that only goes to the mess on order. Frankly the whole thing bores me and I never had time for drinking culture. I go to work, do a good job and at the end of the day, the thought of spending more time talking about military stuff or gossiping doesn't cross my mind. I much rather get home to my wife and spend time with her.

From my perspective, the people who go straight from work to the mess to talk more about work are the unhealthy ones. They need to get a life outside of the military.

The point of a Mess isn't to talk about work after work - the point is to talk about other things (weekend plans, etc) and get to know some of the other folks you work with/around*, whether with a beverage or not.  Unless your wife has a strong objection to meeting people you work with, I'm sure she's welcome to the mess as well.  Do people talk about work?  Of course they do, but that's not the point of the Mess.

* Or, even better, people you don't work with so you don't get stovepiped into just your unit.

 

[a_majoor]

The point of a Mess isn't to talk about work after work - the point is to talk about other things (weekend plans, etc) and get to know some of the other folks you work with/around*, whether with a beverage or not.  Unless your wife has a strong objection to meeting people you work with, I'm sure she's welcome to the mess as well.  Do people talk about work?  Of course they do, but that's not the point of the Mess.

* Or, even better, people you don't work with so you don't get stovepiped into just your unit.

But people are talking to others about their plans for the weekend etc.; they're just doing it on FaceBook and other social media sites rather than the mess. In fact, if you want to prevent people from being "stovepiped", there is no better way to do it, since social media can involve civilians, foreign military members, and the entire global community of whatever your particular interest is. This is the 21rst century, after all.

And you are about 20 years too late. People have been drifting away from the mess as an institution in every place that isn't isolated that I have ever been posted/ tasked to/taken a course at. I now work at CFB Kingston, and it is a very unusual day when I see more than 2 or 3 cars parked in front of the Sgt and WO's mess. Who are you going to talk to when there is no one there? Course "meet and greets", end course parties and farewell luncheons happen downtown 100% of the time, the mess internet is so unreliable that going across the street to Tim's to do any coursework is SOP and even "special events" have to compete with downtown Kingston (where would you rather watch the World Cup or a hockey game: the mess or a downtown pub with its greater selection of beverages, food and possible company?). This has been true since I started coming to Kingston in 2008 for courses.

The best way to deal with this is to stop trying to freeze the mess in amber, but let it evolve. If some people wish to partake, then they are welcome to. If people are rather attracted to their homes, families or the lights of downtown, then they should not be punished for their preferences. Let the mess become a voluntary institution. If the people who choose to go have enough good ideas, they might even attract others to come back, rather than depending on the RSM to push people through the door twice a year for a mess meeting.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

* Or, even better, people you don't work with so you don't get stovepiped into just your unit.

I rather avoid getting stovepiped in the army as a whole. I'm at work 9 out of 24 hours in garrison and 24 out of 24 hours about 2 months of the year. Sorry to break the bubble of some of the 3rd marriage RSMs out there but I'd rather spend time with my 1st wife then listen to other people complain about their work or homelife.

 

[George Wallace]

I rather avoid getting stovepiped in the army as a whole. I'm at work 9 out of 24 hours in garrison and 24 out of 24 hours about 2 months of the year. Sorry to break the bubble of some of the 3rd marriage RSMs out there but I'd rather spend time with my 1st wife then listen to other people complain about their work or homelife.

Not to be derogatory, but why did you join the military with such an attitude?

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Not to be derogatory, but why did you join the military with such an attitude?

Joined for the fun, benefits, and the challange. Doesn't mean I want to bury myself in the army. I've got plenty of interests outside the military that I also pursue in my spare time.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

Maybe it is a generational thing, but if it is a new phenomenom, it doesn't mean it's automatically something that needs to be corrected.

I'm one of those guys that only goes to the mess on order. Frankly the whole thing bores me and I never had time for drinking culture. I go to work, do a good job and at the end of the day, the thought of spending more time talking about military stuff or gossiping doesn't cross my mind. I much rather get home to my wife and spend time with her.

From my perspective, the people who go straight from work to the mess to talk more about work are the unhealthy ones. They need to get a life outside of the military.

I wouldn't go so far as saying that people who go straight to the mess after work are unhealthy (other than maybe drinking to much) I mean maybe they do all their socializing there and that's healthy.  It's all about priorities, 1 person's priorities might be to go slam some beers back or throw darts after every day of work (with or without friends) whereas my priorities for example are far different, mine are to get home to my wife, hang out with her and my dogs, go train a couple hours, get my meals in and get food ready for the next day, etc...

I agree i've only gone to the mess when it was mandatory other than 1 time to watch UFC I believe, I don't drink so for me there's no point in going to the mess unless its for PPV, and i've got a big TV at home so if there's any sport that's on regular TV I want to watch (almost never because I don't really care to watch sports on tv) then I am covered, not to mention half my weekends I leave the area for a real city.

I am the same, I do my job and go home and/or see my friends sometimes, because I honestly don't really want to see/talk to people from work outside of work, partly because I don't particularly like many of them and partly because I don't have much in common with majority of them; I have no kids, I'd rather hit the gym or watch a movie than drink/play darts, etc...so besides work stuff I don't have much in common or to talk about with them.

I tended to use the mess more when I lived in barracks in gagetown and didn't own a tv or anything, so bunch of other buddies (who also lived in barracks) and I would hit it up to go watch some of our favourite shows once or twice a week.

 

[Pusser]

I have to agree with the OP on this one.  The spirit of camaraderie has definitely changed over the last 30 years and in my opinion has declined significantly.  Of course every generation always laments the changes in life and complains about how things aren't like they used to be, but in this case, I think it's kind of sad.  The very fact that many of the above posts refer to folks doing their "jobs" and doing them well is very telling.  In my younger days, we didn't feel we had "jobs," we were members of the CF and that was something more (a calling so to speak).  Unfortunately, over time our leaders have fallen into the "management" mindset and have treated us so much like employees that we react accordingly.  People are much more inclined than they used to be to treat work and home completely separately.  When I first joined the Reserve, we came to the unit whether we were paid or not because it was fun, that's where are friends were and we enjoyed bing there.  When I went to the Regular Force, it was a similar situation.

As for messes, as others have said, they are what YOU make of them.  If they don't appeal to you, get involved and turn them into something that you want.  It puzzles me that we get to belong to one of the most exclusive clubs in town for an incredibly low cost and folks complain about it.  A lot of civlians actually pay huge sums of money for the same opportunities and are quite jealous of us as a result.  I'm very lucky at the moment in that I'm posted OUTCAN to a location with a very active social calendar.  We have at least seven major events a year, including a summer and winter ball.  These events are always well attended and they're a lot of fun.  BOTH my wife and I are going to miss all this when we come home.  Yes, my wife actively participates in the mess as well and thoroughly enjoys it.  I expect that when we do return to Canada, I will once again join the entertainment committee and organize the kinds of parties I like. If you get involved, you can do the same.

Having said all of this, I do actually believe in a life outside the military.  With one brief exception, I have never lived in married quarters (in fact, I think the CF should get out of the housing business altogether, but that's another discussion) and I even try to avoid living in neighbourhoods that are heavily populated by other military families.  I also get involved in other activities completely outside the military community (e.g. civilian sports teams) and so have multiple circles of friends.  The secret, in my view, is to reach out in all directions....

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

Pusser: I would love nothing more than to not have to live in PMQs, but with work opportunities for non military spouses being so horrible in Pet, and the house prices being ridiculously high, its not going to happen anytime soon, and then you also have the point of it being a very small town so almost EVERY neighbourhood has lots of military in it, its not like Kingston for example, where you can actually live somewhere withouth bumping in to coworkers/other soldiers.

I don't think its entirely the "generational" issue or the leadership issue people make it out to be, I mean look back and what was something that was a necessary "evil" drinking and smoking at the mess with coworkers and bosses...people nowadays are far more health conscious and less people smoke and drink compared to back then.  People have more varied interests also, not everyone cares about parties, dancing, drinking, and things that go on at the mess, some people are super outdoorsy and would rather be mountain climbing, mountain biking, hiking, etc, others who are more on the intellectual (nerdy) side might have more book-ish or technological interests...I just feel that in this day and age people feel more comfortable doing things that not EVERYONE is into, and so more people get out there and do their own thing.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I personally found the greatest camaraderie when I was posted to various HMC Ships.  I found the confided living and shared adversity created the camaraderie.  The "main cave" was always a busy spot when in a foreign port and you found different trades going ashore and mingling together often.  We even had great theme parties in home port that were always well attended and gave our significant others a chance to become part of the ships family as a whole.

I think that is a product of that environment though.  I have found in my current posting (CFB Kingston) the mess is a more of a bother to most and really just an institution most use when forced or when its conveniently tied in with another occasion. I personally love the TGIT nights at the Sgts and WOs mess here.  I get to see people I don’t work with anymore and catch up over a beer or pop.

I also thoroughly enjoy the new Sgts and WOs mess at CFB Borden.  Their TGIT is great.  Mostly because I find I often win tickets to different events.

I don’t hinge camaraderie on mess life though.  We do things in my section like pot luck lunches and Christmas parties and these always have solid attendance and participation, none of them are forced fun.  I also know many of my subordinates socialize together outside of work.  As the PO2 I separate myself from this as I don’t want to blur the lines of leadership.

So I would surmise that camaraderie had evolved from the days of yore not that is has degraded.  Having said that, where does it leave the necessity of mess life?  I don’t know but it should attempt  adapt and evolve with the times, in an effort to stay relevant, or it will find itself fighting an uphill battle to survive when the bean counters start looking further at unnecessary infrastructure.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

As for messes, as others have said, they are what YOU make of them.  If they don't appeal to you, get involved and turn them into something that you want. 

I think this is where the disconnect is. It's not that the mess staff don't do a good job trying to make the best of it for people, it's that people are busy with other things in their life and are not interested in spending time in any club, no matter how exclusive it may be.

On top of that, I think spending 1/2 of my waking life in garrison and 100% of my waking life on Op and on Ex with the military is plenty. The rest I rather spend with my wife and family, and not going back to the same bar every night.

It's not an issue that camaraderie needs to be fixed, or that the messes are disfunctional. It's that going back to the same bar all the time is not an interest for people. If I have time and money I rather spend it eating at different restauraunts and pubs with people that don't have the same job as me. There's more to life than buring yourself deeper and deeper in the CAF.

 

[George Wallace]

I think this is where the disconnect is. It's not that the mess staff don't do a good job trying to make the best of it for people, it's that people are busy with other things in their life and are not interested in spending time in any club, no matter how exclusive it may be.

On top of that, I think spending 1/2 of my waking life in garrison and 100% of my waking life on Op and on Ex with the military is plenty. The rest I rather spend with my wife and family, and not going back to the same bar every night.

It's not an issue that camaraderie needs to be fixed, or that the messes are disfunctional. It's that going back to the same bar all the time is not an interest for people. If I have time and money I rather spend it eating at different restauraunts and pubs with people that don't have the same job as me. There's more to life than buring yourself deeper and deeper in the CAF.

It is interesting reading your posts where it would appear that you are a rare person who can not juggle "two families".  So many others have successfully committed to their 'military family' while maintaining their commitments to their biological family, leading successful careers with broad networks of friends and family. 

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

It is interesting reading your posts where it would appear that you are a rare person who can not juggle "two families".  So many others have successfully committed to their 'military family' while maintaining their commitments to their biological family, leading successful careers with broad networks of friends and family.

Then I would say you must be one of the rare people whose marriage did not fail because of their overattachment to the military. Most of the people I see at the mess are at least on the second wife, if not third or fourth.