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Shamrock said:
No not Sir, I work for a living.
dileas
tess
Freemasonry
- Thread starter PigPen
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No not Sir, I work for a living.
dileas
tess
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Get in there brothers!
Beautiful pieces from a brother to another!
dileas
tess
Beautiful pieces from a brother to another!
dileas
tess
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oh fidle dee dee...
i can remember a man of the cloth shucking a few bobs....
dileas
tess
i can remember a man of the cloth shucking a few bobs....
dileas
tess
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holmer said:
My Grandmother is 47
I started doing some research and I think freemasonary is not suitable for Christians.. would anyone like to debate about this in another thread or via pm? I'm pretty sure I have some valid points, however I would love it if you could prove freemasonary as a good thing to me right now, considering its impact on the world.
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Warvstar said:
Nope,
You obviously know absolutely nothing of what Masonry is about, and will use arguments based on peoples' musings from the internet. By the way, most of those authors wear tinfoil hats.
dileas
tess
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Warvstar said:
O my...
I assume you mean debate as in: "a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers armed with logic and relatively equal information"
Why would Tess or I, or anyone else, engage in a debate with someone who has neither the logic nor the equal information required. You state you have "started" doing some research, which we assume is internet-based. and that you are "pretty sure" you have some valid points.
When you have completed research including discussing (NOT debating) with some masons, have read some books, seen both sides of the argument, and you are positive you have some valid points, by all means come ahead. I am sure we'd be happy to chat. I am personally not too interested in a mini flame-war (Lord - I just dated myself) on a topic with which I am VERY well acquainted and the other side isn't, while perhaps others have valid questions.
Pronto
PS: My tinfoil hat is not properly affixed, Tess... I am ready for orders from Gorgon the Magnificent... What's that you say? Vote NDP? Jack Layton for PM? freemasons rule the world and sacrifice children to their dark overlords? Tess should conduct a coup d'etat and replace Mike Bobbit?
Jaydub said:
If you're keen, interested and have enough time on your hands, then I'm sure you'll like either one (or, for that matter, both... since there's no restriction on going through both sets). However, I would humbly suggest that you take your time and not rush into either one. As a new mason??? (I'm guessing that - since you said "after I get my MM") ... there is always the potential to burn out quickly. By doing too much too fast I've seen more than a few brethren burn out and say "man, it was fun in the beginning, but I can't keep putting this much time into Masonry!" And then they drift away to other things.
I'm a strong believer that a new Master Mason should chew on that degree for quite awhile. Maybe learn a lecture (or two... or three ;D), write an essay? I dunno, but the important part is that you take your time and not expose yourself to everything at once. Keep the interest and fire alive in yourself over the long haul and you'll do yourself (and the craft) a great service.
Now that I've read over my reply I need to add two closing points:
1) don't take this as me saying "don't join a concordant body". Nope, not at all. If you're keen, go for it... and,
2) never underestimate the value of stopping to learn a lecture. There is a pile of Masonic information to be gleaned from taking the time to learn (and deliver really well) one of the many fine lectures in the EA, FC and MM degrees.
Mark
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pronto said:
See now you are talking! I was actually talking about warvstar's investigative sources....
dileas
tess
Warvstar said:
OK brethren, let's look at this from the glass half full perspective... We have a young man who has questions about Freemasonry and wants to learn more. We also have a forum in which to teach. So Warvstar, I propose that you start asking questions. Prehaps a new thread entitled "Questions and Answers about Freemasonry" or something like that. Limit yourself to one question/item at a time and we'll discuss that one.
However, prior to starting that thread, you need to ask yourself "am I willing to discuss Freemasonry openly and, more importantly, am I willing to accept credible evidence to dissuade me from thinking ill of the Masonic fraternity?" I have to add that caveat because, over the years, I (and I'm sure many, if not all of the brethren here) have had to endure mind-numbing "conversations" with folks who've had their mind made up that Masons were negative, evil, subversive <fill in a whack of nasty adjectives here>. No amount of calm, well-supported explanations were able to penetrate their up-armoured skulls... :
Also, I've spoken with "detractors" (for want of a better word) who've said "Oh, I learned this bad thing or that bad thing about Masons from Joe and he's a Masonic (sic)!" Well, unfortunately, Joe (well-meaning though he is) didn't really have a clue what he was talking about. So, when cross-examined by the detractor he was only able to come up with "Um, but, I dunno... It seems like a nice bunch of guys. But hey Mr. Detractor, I don't understand what you're saying about Freemasonry but you seem nice and we've been friends for years so I'll be polite and agree with you."
So, if you're open, friendly and willing to discuss, then I'm game for a new thread on it. One last point, to prepare you for that discussion (and maybe to answer alot of your questions before you post them) I suggest that you go to the Grand Lodge of New Brunswick website. There is a wealth of info there. I've quoted the link earlier in this thread, but here it is again for you...
http://www.glnb.ca/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
cheers,
Mark
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Let's keep all questions on to this thread.
As I have stated, with some tongue and cheek, he proposes to prove to us that Masonry is anti Christian.
That statement in itself is incorrect. Those that are part of the order would know that, and to debate with him would be unfair, as pronto stated. Why, well we know both sides of the story, warvstar knows one, and assumes knows the other with his readings from his investigations.
If he wishes to ask questions to further his studies, then we will use this thread. If he wishes to debate the anti Christian stance as a figure of authority on the subject, then I wish no part of it here, unless he can prove his credentials on his theory.
This will not turn into a debate about theology, with references to wilkpedia.
dileas
tess
As I have stated, with some tongue and cheek, he proposes to prove to us that Masonry is anti Christian.
That statement in itself is incorrect. Those that are part of the order would know that, and to debate with him would be unfair, as pronto stated. Why, well we know both sides of the story, warvstar knows one, and assumes knows the other with his readings from his investigations.
If he wishes to ask questions to further his studies, then we will use this thread. If he wishes to debate the anti Christian stance as a figure of authority on the subject, then I wish no part of it here, unless he can prove his credentials on his theory.
This will not turn into a debate about theology, with references to wilkpedia.
dileas
tess
I'm sorry, I'm not a crazy fat paranoid guy reading wiki pages.
What I'm saying is that from what I have read(Mason books that got exposed to public and a video of a 1988 debate on video between a EX worshipful master(against masonary) and a 33rd dgre mason(for masonary)) both my sources appear credible and both state that masonary is anti Christian, at dgre 7 apparently they name the grand architect a anti Christian name combining some idols names.
I don't have much time to talk about this right now, I'm just about to goto class. I will provide my sources when I get off of school, please discredit them, Thanks.
What I'm saying is that from what I have read(Mason books that got exposed to public and a video of a 1988 debate on video between a EX worshipful master(against masonary) and a 33rd dgre mason(for masonary)) both my sources appear credible and both state that masonary is anti Christian, at dgre 7 apparently they name the grand architect a anti Christian name combining some idols names.
I don't have much time to talk about this right now, I'm just about to goto class. I will provide my sources when I get off of school, please discredit them, Thanks.
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Alrighty then if we must....
Some research and you think.
So based on some Some research and what you think, you now want to debate;
Debate definition
Huh, lets split some hairs, and get down to what you really want to do, now we know what debating really means.
Right, after reading some things, and thinking you have understood the concept, You would love the challenge of proving You wrong, not the theories that you have read.
So,
You do not have time to talk about things, due to your busy schedule, however, you would love for us to set time aside to prove your opinion wrong. An opinion based on a video of some sources that "appear credible".
Here I won't bother discrediting the sources, I will discredit the poster who feels like trolling for an argument.
Trundle off to class and learn that to be on the level, you must have integrity. This is what Masonry is about. We hold no secrets, like you present on this thread, on some sort of crusade to usurp our beliefs.
If you claim to be a Christian then you would understand brotherly love, relief, and truth. None of these virtues have been displayed with your hit and run posts.
There is my debate Warvstar, and that is as much as you deserve, consider yourself lucky in the lesson served up to you.
dileas
tess
Warvstar said:
Some research and you think.
Warvstar said:
So based on some Some research and what you think, you now want to debate;
Debate definition
Huh, lets split some hairs, and get down to what you really want to do, now we know what debating really means.
Warvstar said:
Right, after reading some things, and thinking you have understood the concept, You would love the challenge of proving You wrong, not the theories that you have read.
Warvstar said:
So,
You do not have time to talk about things, due to your busy schedule, however, you would love for us to set time aside to prove your opinion wrong. An opinion based on a video of some sources that "appear credible".
Here I won't bother discrediting the sources, I will discredit the poster who feels like trolling for an argument.
Trundle off to class and learn that to be on the level, you must have integrity. This is what Masonry is about. We hold no secrets, like you present on this thread, on some sort of crusade to usurp our beliefs.
If you claim to be a Christian then you would understand brotherly love, relief, and truth. None of these virtues have been displayed with your hit and run posts.
There is my debate Warvstar, and that is as much as you deserve, consider yourself lucky in the lesson served up to you.
dileas
tess
Ah Warvstar, when I read your first questioning post I truly thought "here's a young man with some questions". He's looking to learn about Freemasonry and he's found a spot where there are some masons willing to talk/teach. I didn't realize that you were firmly in the Mason = Anti Christian camp.
Let me tell you a story and see if it helps your understanding of how people can twist the definition of "Anti Christian" to mean whatever they want it to mean. BTW, what is "Anti Christian" anyway? Nevermind...
So, sometime in the late nineties I saw an acquaintance of mine go through his degrees and began attending lodge. He was never a very active participant but he came from time to time. He moved away and we didn't see each other for some time. After a number of years we met up again and eventually the topic of lodge came up. He explained that he had quit the fraternity because he found that it didn't have the right values for him. When I asked he explained that he had discovered, to his horror, that the lodge allowed Jews! and Muslims! and gays! and blacks! He couldn't believe that he had been tricked into joining something that was so horribly anti Christian! I knew at that point that he was so close-minded about the world that I didn't even bother explaining to him that Freemasonry isn't a religion. It's a fraternity that, among other nice things, strongly supports a brother's own free choice of religion. Since our fraternity is all about making good men better... one of the ways we define "making him better" is by admonishing him to attend his church, synagogue, mosque, etc. more often.
So, no, my open, honest, loving, kind, faithful, charitable and virtuous fraternity is not "anti Christian". However, and this is something you have got to understand - it is also not pro Christian any more than it is pro Judaism or pro Islam. I'll say it again another way... Freemasonry has no bias toward any of these religions. one way or the other.
I think that some confusion arises from one of the 3 requirements we make of every man before he can be considered for membership. They are: 21 yrs of age (this varies slightly from province/state to province/state, but by and large it's 21), you must believe in God and you must ask to join (i.e. no solicitation of members allowed). The one that people get confused with (and I think that was the case with the guy in my example above) is the "believe in God". I think people walk in thinking that the definition of God that we work with is either the Christian definition (and therefore they say "hey, what are you doing letting Jews in!!!") or some made up Masonic God (which stirs up the whole anti Christian thing again). So, let me confirm that for you. When we say "do you believe in God?" we're not steering you in any direction. You keep your own definition of God. It's your faith and it's what makes you you. Once you're a Mason, we'll be reminding you from time to time that "Hey, you should go to your house of worship and practice your faith!"
Mark
Let me tell you a story and see if it helps your understanding of how people can twist the definition of "Anti Christian" to mean whatever they want it to mean. BTW, what is "Anti Christian" anyway? Nevermind...
So, sometime in the late nineties I saw an acquaintance of mine go through his degrees and began attending lodge. He was never a very active participant but he came from time to time. He moved away and we didn't see each other for some time. After a number of years we met up again and eventually the topic of lodge came up. He explained that he had quit the fraternity because he found that it didn't have the right values for him. When I asked he explained that he had discovered, to his horror, that the lodge allowed Jews! and Muslims! and gays! and blacks! He couldn't believe that he had been tricked into joining something that was so horribly anti Christian! I knew at that point that he was so close-minded about the world that I didn't even bother explaining to him that Freemasonry isn't a religion. It's a fraternity that, among other nice things, strongly supports a brother's own free choice of religion. Since our fraternity is all about making good men better... one of the ways we define "making him better" is by admonishing him to attend his church, synagogue, mosque, etc. more often.
So, no, my open, honest, loving, kind, faithful, charitable and virtuous fraternity is not "anti Christian". However, and this is something you have got to understand - it is also not pro Christian any more than it is pro Judaism or pro Islam. I'll say it again another way... Freemasonry has no bias toward any of these religions. one way or the other.
I think that some confusion arises from one of the 3 requirements we make of every man before he can be considered for membership. They are: 21 yrs of age (this varies slightly from province/state to province/state, but by and large it's 21), you must believe in God and you must ask to join (i.e. no solicitation of members allowed). The one that people get confused with (and I think that was the case with the guy in my example above) is the "believe in God". I think people walk in thinking that the definition of God that we work with is either the Christian definition (and therefore they say "hey, what are you doing letting Jews in!!!") or some made up Masonic God (which stirs up the whole anti Christian thing again). So, let me confirm that for you. When we say "do you believe in God?" we're not steering you in any direction. You keep your own definition of God. It's your faith and it's what makes you you. Once you're a Mason, we'll be reminding you from time to time that "Hey, you should go to your house of worship and practice your faith!"
Mark
I don't think Freemasonry is wrong, I was considering joining it, however I wanted to debunk some myths I heard about it first.
First thank you Tess for responding, however I think in my haste I presented my message wrong.
Yes, I have made no hard conclusion that masonry is wrong, I think that it is wrong.
I guess I used the wrong word, I meant I would like you to clarify some things for me if you would be so kind.
I would prefer if you proved my sources to be false, sorry if that wasn't clear.
I would love for you to explain(prove if possible) to me why the video is wrong.
If you have the Patience and would be so kind, I would like you and anyone else willing to check this video
http://www.ankerberg.org/TV/ankjasrm-masons-wmv.html
I understand Love, Relief and Truth, I'm not sure where I used the opposite in my last post.
Thank you for taking the time to help me with this.
First thank you Tess for responding, however I think in my haste I presented my message wrong.
the 48th regulator said:
Yes, I have made no hard conclusion that masonry is wrong, I think that it is wrong.
the 48th regulator said:
I guess I used the wrong word, I meant I would like you to clarify some things for me if you would be so kind.
the 48th regulator said:
I would prefer if you proved my sources to be false, sorry if that wasn't clear.
the 48th regulator said:
I would love for you to explain(prove if possible) to me why the video is wrong.
If you have the Patience and would be so kind, I would like you and anyone else willing to check this video
http://www.ankerberg.org/TV/ankjasrm-masons-wmv.html
the 48th regulator said:
I understand Love, Relief and Truth, I'm not sure where I used the opposite in my last post.
Thank you for taking the time to help me with this.
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