Field/Garrison

[Long in the tooth]

It‘s amazing the amount of effort and resources go into training and maintaining a battalion so that it at a state to be deployable. As an officer you‘ll be shocked to learn that most Private infantry soldiers will only be in the battalion for two years - from the time they complete infantry training to the time most of them will release. You will constantly be planning, conducting and assessing formal training for new soldiers. Over one third of your soldiers time will be spent maintaining vehicles, which you will coordinate and inspect. And for the remaining time? The few problem troops you have will eat that up quickly, whether it‘s disciplinary or deciding who to recommend for courses. Let‘s not even get started on summary investigations for missing kit......
So, aside from the fact that field time is terribly expensive (food, fuel, ammo and field pay), that‘s why you‘ll spend 2/3 of your time in Garrison.
Cheers.

 

[Gung_Ho20]

I am so reluctant to join the reg force because of those reasons you have said. I did predepoyment training Roto with a reg force infantry batalion. So much bureaucracy and politics are involved when officers want to plan a good exercise. Nowadays if you want a realistic training you have to go to the US bases because they are much more focus on real training that you will encounter in the battlefield contrary to Canadian bases where the level of security is outrageous. Even planning a day in the range is hard because of all the paperwork and phonecalls that you have to make. Those are the reasons why i‘m sticking to the reserve right now, it‘s much easier to organize a training plan for a reserve unit than reg force because we are much smaller. We have to go through much less beaucracy than our reg force counterpart. And one last reason is that my unit trains once every 2 weeks and if you do the math we train as much or even more than the reg force during the year.

 

[para]

I‘ve done the math
and you are not even close.
Stick to things you know and don‘t make comment like that if you have no term of reference.

 

[Doug VT]

my unit trains once every 2 weeks and if you do the math we train as much or even more than the reg force during the year.

I think what you meant to say was that the reg force(infantry) trainees more in a month than your unit does in a year, not including area directed exercises. Even a regular service battalion sees more field time and training than the typical reserve unit. I can‘t believe that you even said that, why didn‘t you make it through the pre-deployment training phase??!!

The only reason that the Reserves training plans are easy to do is that there is not the level of experience and expertise available to setup and run a realistic training scenario(or the funding) I found that in the reserves there was a lot more pretend and wasted exercises that could have been so much more.

 

[ParaMoe]

When I was in Cadets, long time ago, I went with the reserves on exersises and we had harder cadets than some reservists. Next what do the reservists do on an exersise. They do not march around for hours, attack somewhere, then march around again, then continue this cycle for a few days.
Reserve exersises are not ment to be hard like reg. force ones but rather appease the weekend soldiers into thinking that "wow this is good army training I‘m carrying a gun!!!!"
Don‘t tell me no, or that your unit is different because we all know that this is true. Stop fooling yourself that your a soldier. If you wanted to be one you‘d be in the reg. force,but life is easier in the Militia so that is why you stay.
Yeah by the way what was the reason you did not make the cut to Bosnia?

 

[Suffield]

You still sound like your in cadets, grow up.

 

[ParaMoe]

Buds, I‘m not a Cadet any longer. Were you ever in the military? If so for how long and what did you do? You‘re WEAK little grow up comment does not seem to show much knowledge of military affairs other wise you‘d understand and back what I was saying. :fifty:

 

[Suffield]

Well listen buck, I spent more time in the military than you‘ve got on this earth (unless you‘re a 35 year Corporal for life). I‘ve worn uniforms since the battledress, and retired almost every piece of equipment we have in inventory. I also know more than you where you‘re coming from. I also, in all those years learned an overbearing, arrogant, pompous attitude is not the way to go. If you must berate people to feel superior, start with the one in the mirror. The reserves are here to stay and good thing we can‘t meet our mandate without them. The majority have heart, try looking on the good side and put the unfounded bitterness away. Out. :boring:

 

[portcullisguy]

I can (almost) understand ParaMoe‘s point of view, if I compare it to my full-time job at customs. I make this comparison as I am quite green in the res and obviously not qualified to comment from a military point of view exclusively.

We hire students, give them 3 weeks training, and then put them on the front line to do our jobs while we go on vacation. In a sense, supplementing our strength while on "operations", as reservists do.

Although I, like our union, am dead set against the exploitation of student inspectors to assist on our borders and airports in screening people coming to Canada, I think it would be universally unfair to dismiss them out of hand, as ParaMoe has of reservists.

Like the army, customs has used students and part-time/casual workers since almost the very beginning of modern customs operations (at least since WWII).

ParaMoe should think before opening his mouth (or typing)... reservists have been essential to maintaining the numbers needed. Also ... no one goes into the army to make it rich. People who have jobs already but wish to contribute to their military (besides paying taxes) should be welcomed into the reserves, as they ain‘t even considering the reg force.

I make $47,000/yr, am I going to quit and become a reg pte for $26,000/yr? Obviously not. The army will not pay my bills for me.

If I am a recent graduate without a plain goal or career plan, then maybe I should consider the reg‘s as they will feed, clothe, house and train me, give me a trade and some experience, and after a few years of dedicated service I can go join civvie street and make bigger bucks.

 

[Doug VT]

I think what Paramoe is trying to say is stop trying to compete. Sure you‘re all proud of your units and you think that you‘re the sh*t but come-on, let‘s be realistic. No need to call down other units of elements, that‘s just unprofessional. Stupid individuals are another story. Wake up and stop mouthing off about things you don‘t know or understand. No need to name individuals, you know who you are...

 

[M4]

Para, are you saying that reservists are not real soldiers? If you don‘t mind I will give you a lesson of history. In both WW, most of the battles( if not all of the battles) were fought by reservists. By the end of WW2 the ratio of reservists were 20 to1. All reg forces at that time were only used to train the reserve for war. Not long ago it was the reserve that look down at regs but not it is the contrary. The last battle honnor that Canada won was in Kapyong,Korea. At that time the 2nd battalion of PPCLI was only composed of reservists held off Communist forces who outnumbered the Canadians by as much as eight to one. They earned the President of US citation, the only unit to received it in Canada. If you don‘t believe what I say go read Esprit de Corps latest edition. I don‘t want to start a war, but whats get angry is that some people think that reserve are useless. Most of them are ex-reservists( Paramoe?).

 

[rceme_rat]

Nice to see the classic arguments being pulled out whenever the reg-reserve mud-slinging game is played. In this case, it is the "reserve myth" -- that WWII was fought by a bunch of reservists.

You might call the troops that went to WWII reservists, but most weren‘t. They were new full-time soldiers recruited to transformed reserve units. You can keep the regimental names on the roll for the next time we mobilize if that is all you want to preserve.

If today‘s reserve force could be posted to full-time employment, as part of battle-strength units, in a foreign country for a lengthy period (say, two years or so without leave home), it would be a far different force than currently exists. And that is what WWI‘s "reserve force" was when it finally went into battle.

So let‘s talk about today‘s reserve force, not the mythical reserve of Canadian history (which some say serves to bolster our self-image as "peaceful farmers and merchants who can kick butt if we have to, although we really don‘t want to").

If what you want is a viable reserve force capable of providing competent individuals or sub-units to augment the peacetime- strength reg force when it is required to deploy at full strength, you need something more than this reliance on the reserve myth. We barely meet this standard today, and the likelihood of continuing to meet it seems to be falling.

If you want a reserve force that can deploy full-strength units to combat tasks, on reasonable notice (e.g., to replace a reg force unit after its initial deployment), then you need a visionary new approach to the reserves -- and the commitment of a lot more money than our government is ever likely to spend on defence.

In short, our reserve force now may be comprised of dedicated individuals, some of whom are notable in their abilities, but until it is given a serious re-org; the infusion of obscene amounts of cash; legislative support in the form of job protection; guaranteed training time, improved pay, pension and benefits; the introduction of mob spec trades; and training that recognizes the need for a front-end concentration course followed by skills-focused maintenance sessions and refresher courses, with annual exercises; then the reserves will remain a disorganized, ineffective force that falls far below its potential.

That is the reality of today‘s reserves; it is also the shame of today‘s government.

 

[portcullisguy]

Originally posted by rceme_rat:
[qb]So let‘s talk about today‘s reserve force, not the mythical reserve of Canadian history (which some say serves to bolster our self-image as "peaceful farmers and merchants who can kick butt if we have to, although we really don‘t want to").[/qb]

It‘s a history that extends far back beyond WWII or even WWI. In 1812, when this province had less than 75,000 souls living in it, there was only one regiment, the 41st, posted here, and one other in Lower Canada. Altogether, less than 3,000 regulars to defend huge tracts of mainly unpopulated land from an invasion force at three different points along the border. Three things helped keep Upper Canada in the empire: Brock, Tecumseh, and the militia.

Nearly 30 years earlier, during the War of Independence, Canadian militia units fought with distinction alongside British regulars against Continentals in Pennsylvania and New York, winning several battles while outnumbered.

The fact that Canada exists today at all is intrinsically linked to the existence of the militia. Is it any wonder that this "myth" is still perpetuated to this day? It may not be entirely correct in this age, but it is at least understandable, as it is a part of the Canadian psychology.

As to the other ills you mention regarding the reserves, many of them (such as underfunding, and civilian career continuity) could be said to be problems in the regular force as well. How many reg inf pte‘s and cpl‘s get out of the forces after a couple years and get good paying jobs with skills like "machinegunner" or "I can use a mortar" on their resumes? There isn‘t much call for that in the private sector. The smart ones pick a trade... but if everyone is going to be an engineer or helicopter mechanic, who is going to shoot the guns when war time comes round? How seriously does the CF prepare reg members for civilian jobs when it‘s time to pack their bags?

 

[Jungle]

When talking about the past, remember that a hundred years ago and back, the whole CDN Army was known as the Militia. As a matter of fact, we invented the "citizen soldier". But were the people who fought in WWI and WWII really reservists ? They were recruited in Res units that had been mobilized. Then they were sent to England and trained for 2 to 4 years before going into action... hardly a reservist anymore after training full time for a number of years...
It is a fact that there are differences between Reg F and Res F soldiers... generally Reg F soldiers are proficient in more aspects of their trade. Accept it...
Portcullisguy, you don‘t seem to realise that the (Reg F) Infantry has one of the highest retention rates in the CF. The Air Force has the biggest retention problem.

 

[Gunner]

you don‘t seem to realise that the (Reg F) Infantry has one of the highest retention rates in the CF.

Jungle, that‘s a pretty bold statement and I wish it was true.

Reg F Infantry MOCs suffer from a higher release rate than reserve units...why do you think the PPCLI is short three company‘s?

I‘d be careful with how we dispell the myths of military history. Anyone here about the PPCLI mutiny after WWI? Anyone want to hazard a guess at how well the PPCLI performed during WWII? You can break it down before or after their leadership was sacked in Sicily for incompetence. How about Kapyong? How many were actually "true Patricias" and how many were Reservists fighting under the wrong cap badge?

Whats the point? Regulars and Reserves are different and both fulfill extremely important roles for the CF. The Regulars need a good "kick in the butt" to realize the capablity of part time soldiering. Too many Regulars drown their sorrow in their beer waiting for a government that will rapidly expand them into some semblance of an army. The Reserves need a good "kick in the butt" to bring them into some type of semblance of a 21st century organization. LCols commanding 50 people doesn‘t lend credibility.

Synergy is the word of the future ... Don‘t denigrate either component that will destroy the synergy that could be created.

 

[Jungle]

With the retention thing, I was not comparing Reg F against Res F, I was comparing Reg F Infantry against the rest of the (Reg) CF. Again, I did not say the Infantry had a perfect record, but it is comparing well to other trades... And I am not putting down the Reservists !!! I simply said there are differences and everybody should accept it !!!

How about Kapyong? How many were actually "true Patricias" and how many were Reservists fighting under the wrong cap badge?

Well, how many ??? I just dont think a reservist can still be called a reservist anymore after spending 2 to 4 years training full time then going into action... does that mean that the 11 months I spent in the Res F before I joined the Reg F labelled me forever as a Reservist ??? So I have been lying to myself the last 18 years ???
What the **** is SYNERGY ??? My guess is it‘s just another way of bringing us closer the "Corporation of National Defence"

 

[Gunner]

Jungle stated

does that mean that the 11 months I spent in the Res F before I joined the Reg F labelled me forever as a Reservist ???

Hey freaking Mo!

Synergy...the total equals more than the sum of the parts. For example infantry is an arm of destruction...add in armour and, with synergy, the power and capabilities of both increase. Add in Arty and the power that is created by synergy is awesome! Its a good word and not just for the bureaucrat in me.

The Reserves can provide an important capability for the CF...I am not sure if we know what the capability should be or for that matter how we are to organize and equip and FUND it properly. All we are doing right now is pouring money into an extremely leaky boat.

 

[Harry]

SYNERGY:

If DND allowed the CF to train and prepare for it’s ultimate roll instead of hiring the latest spin guru to reinvent the grunt wheel. We would not be in the predicament we are in.

With every new MANAGEMENT concept, a leadership model is either dropped or corporatized.

The days of leading troops have been morphed into the management of man/women resources. Since ’85 and the introduction of corporation style perfuntionarianism of our officer corp, we as an org have degraded to what we are today.

An over managed, under funded group of highly motivated, well-disciplined individuals who are lead by the dregs (for the most part) of the various FRP’s and an over burgeoned officer corp.

When an organization pays accolades to the individual with three to six years or so in who wants to take his commission. Promotes him for initiative and potential and then sends that person off to go to school, what message are we sending? Especially when as an example we pass over a troop with 12 years in, who knows his role inside and out, has the respect of his peers and support of his immediate supervisor(s), yet is passed over. On an increasing basis, more of the latter are leaving and the org is discovering that the numbers of good NCM’s and NCO’s is waning. The numbers speak for themselves. Yet nothing is truly being done. As an aside, some of those who bail, do revert to the Militia, and serve with distinction there.

UBIQUE

 

[Jungle]

Gunner, what you described is known as COOPERATION, and it‘s one of the things that wins wars... you can calculate it the way you want and call it what you like, cooperation has been around since the romans!!! Which brings me to this:
“We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn in this life that we tend to meet any situation by reorganizing. And a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.” -Attributed to Petronius Arbiter, Roman hedonist, about 60 A.D.
Funny how little things change in 2000 years! And this is exactly what this "synergy" thing does... Ask the troops to do a left flank, they‘ll be on their way before you‘re done asking ! Ask them to "confront the enemy posn from their starboard side while bringing a maximum of synergy" and they will look at you as if you had a hand growing on your forehead!!!
We don‘t care about this REMF talk, we want to talk the soldier‘s talk which is something we understand !!!

 

[Gunner]

Synergy is a result of Cooperation. They are mutually exclusive. Regs and Res need to cooperate with one another. We don‘t do that right now and we have the Regs doing their thing and the Reserves doing there and never the two shall meet.