Drill and Military Tradition

[Britney Spears]

Which brings us logically to the next topic of debate:

"Ceremonial Drill - Obsolete?"

*waits for it to be spun off into a new thread*

 

[Infanteer]

Hey hey now - it's "Train as you would Drill"; or is that "Drill as you would Fight".... :blotto:

 

[KevinB]

Drill - Here goes an issue, I support it heavily used in Recruit, Basic and Battleschool - it is part of the react immediately concept that needs to be instilled and the baseline to discipline.


After that - shut down all the gay parade crap -- certain drills should be done (the ones we don't do) to work for Crowd Control -- if you've played with the Horsemen riot teams you know what I mean.

But I'd burn half the drill pam - especially the rifle drill portions. 

 

[pbi]

Couldn't disagree more. Drill has a very long history of being one of the most cost effective and simple ways of instilling instinctive obedience and teamwork, as well as building a basic sense of pride.   Our problem is that we now do so little drill (ever...) that our standard has dropped to a hideously low level. It seems to me that a body of troops moving around now is more likely to be a stumbling mass going in five different directions, dressed however they want, than to be a formed group moving in a sharp and professional manner under the control of NCO. It is really sad to see the way this has deteriorated in our Army over the years. The need for drill, like the need for any other kind of training, doesn't stop after recruit training.

The value of drill as a simple and effective part of training soldiers was confirmed for me in the book "The Wild Geese", in the portion in which Mike Hoare related one of his standard mercenary hiring practices. He said that he would have his Sgt Maj form up all the applicants, then drill the hell out of them. He stated that he usually found that the soldier who worked hard and looked proud on the square would be a good hire.

Finally, if we want other opinions on the value of drill, you might want to ask the US Marines, or the Foot Guards Regiments of the British Army, both of whom have very honourable combat records as well as high standards of drill. I believe in the value of drill as an important part of the training toolbox.

Cheers.

 

[Britney Spears]

Jesus, it was a JOKE. Even I wouldn't go that far.

Everyone put the pacesticks down and relax.....

 

[Infanteer]

Lol, I knew joking about drill would draw some incoming fire from PBI.... 

For what it's worth, I think that drill is one of the cornerstones of the profession - watching some of the slugs shamble around in the news-clips of Bordon recently has reaffirmed this.

But then again, I'm one of those wierdos who thinks that we also should take pride in our apperence and be issued a proper Service Dress (or Walking Out Dress - whatever you want to call it) so we don't look like a bunch of dumpy mechanics.

My goal is to dress KevinB up in one of these outfits.... >

 

[KevinB]

I think I might have a pic of me in Battle dress for the 50th of D-Day kicking about.



PBI - I knew there was a confomist in you...

I agree with th reason for drill - I just like to see more useful drill rather than advance in review order...  Left/Right Inclines on the march in go gear forming square and wedge etc.  I don't see the point in a flourishing parade so the Col's wife and kids can see his troops march aroudn like a wind up toy.

I'd be interested to see how much the US Rangers and their #rd TF pals from the cage at Bragg, do drill?  Same with John's Trout Farm.

My guess is they are busy out wacking tango's - or practicing skills for said mission.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I don't see the point in a flourishing parade so the Col's wife and kids can see his troops march aroudn like a wind up toy.

You don't run a battalion, either.  And from your own admission, are never likely to.

Why crap on the rabbi for blessing the food just because you don't eat kosher yourself? 

 

[Britney Spears]

Oh great, now we're really off to the races. :

Isn't this thread about bayonets? Obviously I've misjudged the board's capacity for humour once again, for which I apologize. If a mod wants to put us back on track I'd appreiciate it.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Oh great, now we're really off to the races. :

Isn't this thread about bayonets? Obviously I've misjudged the board's capacity for humour once again, for which I apologize. If a mod wants to put us back on track I'd appreiciate it.

Hey, why do you need our help?  Apologizing for being smarter than everyone else is a great way to get the thread back on track! LOL

Probably time to lock this up before Kev posts the Tarzan costume pics.

Not trying to be offensive to Kevin, either, incidentally, just pointing out that everyone thinks they know how to do everyone else's job - until they actually have to walk a mile in their shoes.  As much as some of us eschew politics, etc., I'm betting they are a fact of life for a colonel, and that includes making the troops seem like wind-up toys at times.

If that was an attempt at humour on Kevin's part, I'll freely admit it sailed over my head.

Is there really anything else to say about bayonets?  I was just hoping to see NATO dude come back and defend his comments about helmets and bagpipes, honestly.

 

[KevinB]

Okay poor attempt at humour.  I believe that our limited training time could be better spent.  I mentioend being favour of drill - however I am also in favour of small arms skills and I dont like troops wasting rounds with no thought to training.  Do it for a reason.


I have a very fetching (if I do say so myself) of me in the 19th Cent Artillery 9lb'er uniform with busby from my old pre Patricia days (pre'94)

 

[Infanteer]

Problem is, from my limited time in battalion, I spent more time sitting in the Company Lines couches that the Patricia's provided then doing training - whether it be bayonet training, drill, or weapons handling....

 

[KevinB]

Under THAT CO the BN was not what it should have been, the last two are cut from entirely different cloth.

 

[Infanteer]

Whew....

Now, FIX BAYONETS!!!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Why, are they broken?

 

[pbi]

I don't see the point in a flourishing parade so the Col's wife and kids can see his troops march around like a wind up toy.

Then I suggest that maybe we have lost sight of the role of drill and ceremonial in the life of a military unit. It is not just for the COs wife and kids to see: it is for everybody;s wife and kids to see. To me it is a cultural thing: the hard work, pride and teamwork that go into a good parade are great things to behold. Are there other ways to instill those things: yes, of course. That's why I said "tool in the toolbox" not "the only tool" (well...maybe I'm the only tool around here...). Are there effective military forces that don't spend alot of time on drill? Yes, there probably are. Except that, especially in the JTF and organizations similar, the members have usually come from combat arms organizations where there was an emphasis on drill and sharpness (as opposed to the rest of the military...). Therefore, I think it is safe to say that drill played its role in shaping them.

Is drill hard work? Yes-for everybody on parade. I have taken part in two full military funerals (I commanded one...) and I can tell you that slow marching for a couple of kms at reversed arms is hard work, especially if its crap weather out and the street is uneven. But, I felt proud to take part, and proud that we (all) looked as sharp as we did. I know that when the battalion did its Farewell to Calgary in 1997, the spectacle of a battalion of sharply turned out soldiers, marching arms shoulder high, boot cleats crashing on the pavement, created a huge impression on the public (and we looked at ourselves in the store windows too ;D ).

Somebody said I was a comformist. I hope not. But, I am a proud traditionalist where it comes to things that my experience and instinct tell me are important basic parts of soldiering as we know it: to me that includes drill.

Cheers.

 

[Britney Spears]

I think the cbt arms soldiers here are all aware of the importance of drill, but it must be frustrating to see so much effort devoted to it when other areas of training are being cut back. Would you rather do more drill or simunitions training? In an idea world we'd have plenty of both*, but when we have more drill than actual training, people will start wondering.


*OK, that's a lie, my ideal world actually involves no drill at all, I hate drill. I meant pbi's ideal world. You know, refleting the CO's intent and all.......

 

[Infanteer]

I can honestly say that two of the "cooler" things I've done were parading for Lady Patricia as she awarded us medals and marching at arms with the Regimental Colours for the public.   It may have not been "high-speed", but both were demanding in terms of effort (as both an individual and as a Team) and were very "military" events.

I think we're are selling ourselves short by pointing to some SOC units and saying that Drill, Dress and Deportment (the three D's) have no place in a modern military.   In my opinion, all three are linked (and tied into Discipline) and all should be central to being a professional soldier.

 

[Jarnhamar]

In my opinion, all three are linked (and tied into Discipline) and all should be central to being a professional soldier.

Agreed. 
A huge pet peeve of mine is seeing very sloppy drill.

Bad drill among recruits, well thats obviously expected. Among trained and expeienced soldiers? It looks horrible.

From officers looking like it's their first stab at marching to NCOs who act like they are too good for regulation drill to privates and corporals who have no coordination whatsoever.
Proper drill shouldn't be something hammered into Infantry soldiers or just the combat arms. All trades should look good doing drill.

I know we always fall back to this in debates here. "We should be soldiers first".  Seems to work in theory but not really in practice.

Drill or simunitions training? Well i'm sure most people will say Simunition training, BUT, it shouldn't be a matter of one or the other.  Drill isn't a crazy difficult thing to train on. I'm not suggesting everyone be able to do drill on the hill in ottawa but everyone should be able to perform the basic functions without embarassing themselves.

 

[KevinB]

I started to write up a new topic about this soemwhere else and saw this.

My biggest pet peeve is sloppy drill.  But I think that at the Bn level is not the place to learn Drill and Discipline.  If they make it that far (and they do) it is impossible to instill at that point - unless you are going to let Cpl's and M/Cpl's give out beatings again - for the BN simply cannot afford the time to do two or three weeks of incessant drill practice.

PBI I was on that sunset ceremony at Currie - and the logn walk down 5th Ave  - and I agree it was nice.

However recently I am simply disgusted with the dress and deportment - now anyone who knows me knows I am the last person to care about D&D normally - I make the exception in CF's