Don't join the army if your broken!

[TCBF]

"For the second time since this summer I was at the MIR waiting on someone when a mother (with her son in tow) was giving some poor medic or someone a hard time."

- Back in 1973, my Mom thought my Mk II cbt Boots (the Mk Is had just been replaced) looked good.  My step-father thought they were a lot better than the 'Ammo' boots he landed in Sicily with and wore until well after VE Day.

But, none of us thought I would wear them for 35 years, and spend a lot of time running in them to boot (sorry).

Now?  Fallen arches.  Orthotics.  Mk IIIs with Vibrams, one sole starting to floppy.

But, hey, life could be worse...

Tom

 

[Franko]

Yeah....my DBs are falling apart at the Vibram sole as well, heat in Astan is a bit much I guess.

Going to have to get them re-soled before the next deployment    :

Regards

 

[armyvern]

Let me throw in a though about the Mk3 Cbt boot.
Designed for outdoors, military like conditions, correct? Everyone agrees with that. Good boot for what its made for, correct?

Absolutely

Vern,
how many of those troops with those chits are garritroopers who spend the vast majority of each of every work day indoors?

I'd say about 5% are garrison soldiers...the overwhelming majority are first line personnel.

In the reg force, in our buildings, what does the flooring consist of?
Tile over concrete.

It depends on where exactly you work I guess. The vast majority of EME, Sup, TN and Engineers are wearing their safety boots. I find that most CSS troops not wearing safety boots as their daily footwear...tend to have carpeted floors on this Base and others I have been to. MPSS, customers services, LPO to name a few. While in the medical world I've noticed that you guys tend to have that all in one piece flooring... don't know what it's called.

Perhaps you explain this phenomena to me... How exactly does one develop a "foot problem" requiring a chit overnight...or within a couple of days? They whine to us about the Mk III being to heavy or "ugly", say they are going to go get a chit for vibrams or purchased boots (were talking no-hooked Ptes here) and lo and behold...they're back (I've even had a couple of them return the very same day) with chit in hand for vibrams..or customs...or whatever and laugh about it at the counter? I've taken names, submitted them up my CoC for query as to exactly how I can have 9 chits dated that very morning already standing at the counter in clothing stores only 25 minutes after physio opened.

I'd also like to point out that it just seems to be getting more flagrant since the physio/medic side of the house has begun employing more (and I don't know the proper term you use here) civilian practitioners at the MIR. 99% of the chits I do get are authorized by a civilian staff member from the MIR vice an MA, PA or MO. Apparently the Pte's know exactly what to say to them to get a chit...my husband still can't figure it out after 20 years in the infantry (10 with the CAR) and over 8000 jumps...I just tell him to go ask the nearest Pte because I can't figure it out for the life of me but apparently the Pte's can...and do.

 

[TCBF]

It took an MO's signature (not the MA's, not the PT's) to get my boots Vibramed.  After which,  QM was going to issue me two new pair to GET Vibramed, but I thought it a waste, as the ones I had were just broken in.  So I turned in my 'used' pairs, and broke in my orthotics one pair at a time in each boot - with and without ruck.


Anyway, boots are not pharmaceuticals.  An MO can no more tell the BSup O to by an item out of the QM budget than it can tell the ATO to buy ammunition.  Now, if the MO is also supplying a FINCODE, that would be different.

Tom

 

[armyvern]

  It was not until I was deployed to Haiti that I got a chit for Vibram soles. The only reason was because  it was coming from the Mission budget.

Uh no they didn't...I bought all Op Halo's boots here in Gagetown and shipped them (even the ones that were prescribed in-theatre) and they were brought with the regular budget as yours were prescribed for medical reasons, if it was mission budget the whole tour including my husband would have got them, who after humping his ruck 1000s of kms is still wearing his MkIIIs and bitching about the new troops in their gucci kit.

Without Vibram soles my compounding injuries would probably have caused me to leave the Infantry.

Then you have an honest-to-god injury...which is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the whiners who can magically end up with a chit who have no injury.

For those on this thread who haven't humped a few hundred km's with rucks wearing Mark 3's don't try to convince me how wonderful they are. As for the kid at the MIR with his mom ,well, that's pathetic. And yes I do agree if you are broken find another career path.

No-one said they were perfect. After all vibram is a recent technology. And the move is on to eventually have all our boots issued with vibram soles as it's benefits are recognized. Until then, the troops with no injuries continue to bleed the budget (that's your budget too), you see because the chit is a "medical requirement" I can't refuse it. So when I overspend by XX thousands of dollars this fiscal year...someone or something else loses their budget to do whatever...ammo for the ranges etc etc.

 

[TCBF]

""medical requirement" I can't refuse it. So when I overspend by XX thousands of dollars this fiscal year...someone or something else loses their budget to do whatever...ammo for the ranges etc etc."

i don't see how you can be ordered to spend your budget on items you do not stock.  Can the MO order you to buy crutches, wheelchairs and iron lungs as well?  MO's - ouside of their own units - are ADVISORS, and while advisors may advise, COMMANDERS COMMAND.

I would check out the auth of an MO to actually order this. If you can't find it in writing - call them on it. Sure, I suppose one of my soldiers (when I had them) could have shown me a chit for Silk jammies - I would send him to the pharmacy.

Tom

 

[armyvern]

It took an MO's signature (not the MA's, not the PT's) to get my boots Vibramed.  After which,  QM was going to issue me two new pair to GET Vibramed, but I thought it a waste, as the ones I had were just broken in.  So I turned in my 'used' pairs, and broke in my orthotics one pair at a time in each boot - with and without ruck.

This can be delegated down as per CFMO's. We give the troops the option here as to whether or not they want their broken in MkIIIs re-soled or a new pair re-soled. Most opt to have one broken in pair re-soled and one new pair re-soled.

Anyway, boots are not pharmaceuticals.  An MO can no more tell the BSup O to by an item out of the QM budget than it can tell the ATO to buy ammunition.  Now, if the MO is also supplying a FINCODE, that would be different.
Tom

Any item of clothing prescribed for a medical or orthopaedic reason is purchased by clothing stores and issued onto the members clothing docs. Items can also include include chairs, keyboards or any other 'appliance"  prescribed by appropriate medical authority, boots, sleeping bags without feathers due to alllergies etc etc. These "prescribed" items then belong to that member and follow him/her for the duration of their career. If the boots or other item are "prescribed" the BSupO has no authority to not purchase the member the prescribed item, that would be dis-obeying a Medical Authorities orders. And no, the MIR does not supply a fin coding, although it was a point I have raised to NDHQ, as if they had to supply their own fin code, I'm quite sure that the current number of personnel who seem to be able to obtain chits would drop off drastically (and again I'm talking about the un-injured ones who will tell us right to our face that they are just going to go get a chit -when we tell them they don't come with vibrams on them- who manage to be back within the week with that chit).

 

[armyvern]

I would check out the auth of an MO to actually order this. If you can't find it in writing - call them on it. Sure, I suppose one of my soldiers (when I had them) could have shown me a chit for Silk jammies - I would send him to the pharmacy.
Tom

It is in writing in both the CFMOs and the CFSM (Medical Orders and Supply Manual). Crutches etc are somewhat different as these items are CMED items (Central Medical Equipment Depot). When they show up with a chit for SPF 40 sunblock at the front counter I send them back to the pharmacy at the MIR (And...yes...this has happened!! Along with the one chit that said "Buy this soldier 'cherry flavoured medicated chapstick." ) These are prescribed medications as far as I'm concerned...and I did win that battle.

 

[TCBF]

Well, heck, I learn something every day, I guess.

 

[Franko]

When they show up with a chit for SPF 40 sunblock at the front counter I send them back to the pharmacy at the MIR (And...yes...this has happened!! Along with the one chit that said "Buy this soldier 'cherry flavoured medicated chapstick." ) These are prescribed medications as far as I'm concerned...and I did win that battle.

:

What next....Charmin TP for their arses?

Regards

 

[Patrolman]

Vern
Just so you know. It was the physio therapists who told me the vibram soled boots were being paid for by the OP Halo budget. They had said they were told to give them to anyone on their case load who had feet problems and requested them.
There has been a serious mis-use of the system I agree.This will always be a problem so long as there are people who feel it is their God given right to the exact same kit as their buddy even though they don't need it.
  I also agree there is a problem with the standards of the physio staff(boot wise). Some will issue chits to people with ten minutes in  the Army ,while others will tell people like your husband and myself too bad." Perhaps you could wear your wet weather boots" (even thoughit's 30 degrees out). Luckily for myself I was able to get a chit before I sustained any more injuries.
  Point to note. Recently I had eyelets on both pairs of my boots damaged causing them to cut my laces after a day or so. I took them to RSG hoping to send them in for repair. What I got however, was two new pairs of boots with vibram soles. Good for me but not for the supply budget.

 

[chrisf]

Apparently the Pte's know exactly what to say to them to get a chit...my husband still can't figure it out after 20 years in the infantry (10 with the CAR) and over 8000 jumps...I just tell him to go ask the nearest Pte because I can't figure it out for the life of me but apparently the Pte's can...and do.

Not a private here, but he's welcome to do the exact same thing I did... go to the MIR, see the MO, point out that your boots are causing problems, and that you want vibram soles... if they say no, point out that you're more then willing to pay for them yourself. If his boots (Knees/arches/ankles/back/whatever) are causing him trouble, believe me, the price to get them resoled is small by the relief it'll give.

 

[Prariedawg]

IMHO all combat arms should be issued the Danner (acadian boot system)with good insoles at the completion of their Q L3.These soldiers have a foot-borne career carrying heavy things ahead and need specialized boots for their work just as Techs do.This would offset some of the foot related injuries suffered by the combat arms vice paying what we do now to treat those injuries.If you give the soldiers the best equipment possible to complete the mission you ensure maximum performance,and those who continue whinging are your non-hackers.

 

[Armymedic]

Enough about boots...I hate %$^* boots.

If you want gucci boots, make up an ailment (my knees ache (both, dull achy pain, 8/10, Motrin doesn't work, lasts all day, and occasionally keeps me up at night) after every run/ruck march), get an appointment with a civilain doctor or physio at your base, and then you'll have your chit. The go see supply, and they'll tell you to go to the authozied dealer and order your boots, on the CF's charge.

If your lucky, you won't see me first.

Now how about we get back on topic....?

Don't join if you are broken!!

 

[bilton090]

It is NOT a noted fact.  It is, however, a b i t c h that I hear a lot in forums like this, usually from those with little real experience.  I have never ever seen a conclusive study to that effect, nor have I ever seen any CF documentation to that FACT.  Do you think the CF would intentionally issue kit that would cripple you?  Get real.  The Mk III is a good boot.  I wore them for years in the Military and years prior to the military as Civie boots (Greb Kokiaks).  

I've been wearing the MK III's starting in 1981, 83-88 w/ the born. 88-91, 02-06 I like the boot's have no prob's ... Double sole's is nice!!!!!
  Chimo!  Airborne!

 

[bilton090]

Or we could just issue everyone better boots from the get go, at a nominal extra cost, or maybe just issue one pair of boots and then give the member an allowance for the second pair of "field" boots. All the man/hours saved on the MIR/Clothing busywork would more than pay for it, and I wouldn't have had to wait 5 years before I was "broken" enough to deserve gucci boots.

    THERE'S NOT A THING WRONG WITH THE BOOT!!!!

 

[chrisf]

    THERE'S NOT A THING WRONG WITH THE BOOT!!!!

And there was nothing wrong with the old combat jacket. It's just been replaced with newer and better technology. I can't imagine anyone disputing that vibram soles are better then what's on the boots now...

 

[Glorified Ape]

Or we could just issue everyone better boots from the get go, at a nominal extra cost, or maybe just issue one pair of boots and then give the member an allowance for the second pair of "field" boots. All the man/hours saved on the MIR/Clothing busywork would more than pay for it, and I wouldn't have had to wait 5 years before I was "broken" enough to deserve gucci boots.

Amen. The MkIII works fine for some people and doesn't work well at all for others. Unfortunately, I fall into the latter category. I was born with club feet (http://www.pediatric-orthopedics.com/Treatments/Feet/feet.html#club for anyone unfamiliar) but I had a good surgeon and I can run/walk/march/etc as well as anyone else. I'm supposed to use orthotics (which I do, I have an old pair I had made while ago), but I can function fine without them. My MkIIIs currently sag over the outer edge of the sole by about 1 inch (I suponate like crazy), so I'm constantly teetering on the outside - this is after 8 months of use. They're also not wide enough and I have the widest size available.

I'm not "broken" and I can function as well as anyone else, but the MkIII is absolute crap for my feet. I've been told by my DS while on course that I should go look into different boots/modified boots and new orthotics. So I did, and I'm currently waiting on vibram soles and orthotics. I could wait until I have chronic knee/back/ankle/foot problems as a result of wearing the concrete-soled, unsupportive MkIII or I can act responsibly and wear vibrams and orthotics. I don't view chronic joint problems as some sort of testament to my manliness. I don't see the logic behind soling a boot meant for heavy duty/prolonged use with something about as cushioning as oak. Maybe I missed something. I also don't see the logic behind having new troops wait until they're injured/impaired until providing them with suitable boots.

 

[ERIK2RCR]

Every, and i do mean EVERY office in EVERY UMS/MIR i've ever been in has had the medical requirements for vibram soled boots posted on the wall on a large poster. IMO this isn't there for the MO/NP's reference.

 

[George Wallace]

.......... I could wait until I have chronic knee/back/ankle/foot problems as a result of wearing the concrete-soled, unsupportive MkIII or I can act responsibly and wear vibrams and orthotics. I don't view chronic joint problems as some sort of testament to my manliness. I don't see the logic behind soling a boot meant for heavy duty/prolonged use with something about as cushioning as oak. Maybe I missed something. I also don't see the logic behind having new troops wait until they're injured/impaired until providing them with suitable boots.

I am sure that we all agree with that statement.  It is the fact, that many do not, and are not developing any problems.  It is these people who are abusing the system, falsely claiming 'injuries' to get what they deem gucci kit at Public expense.