Don't join the army if your broken!

[Glorified Ape]

I am sure that we all agree with that statement.  It is the fact, that many do not, and are not developing any problems.  It is these people who are abusing the system, falsely claiming 'injuries' to get what they deem gucci kit at Public expense.

Agreed - falsely claiming injury is repugnant in the first place, but doing so in order to milk the system for things you don't need is even worse.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I am sure that we all agree with that statement.  It is the fact, that many do not, and are not developing any problems.  It is these people who are abusing the system, falsely claiming 'injuries' to get what they deem gucci kit at Public expense.

Exactly.

Not everyone is going to love the MK3s but the army isn't known for buying the best out there. I'm sure if we bought the top of the line $600 a pair boots some people would still dislike them and require something different.  I can see why the army is not in a rush to go and purchase danners (or whatever) for everyone out of basic (imagine the money wasted on people who only do one engagement?) but i think it would be a good idea to atleast throw vibrim soles on all the Mk3s. Good compromise.

Glorified Ape in your case I have two opinions. On one hand joining the army with a foot condition seems a little crazy but by the sounds of it you're able to soldier on without much difficulty. Your disadvantaged more than the average guy but it doesn't sound that bad.
The problem people are the ones who hit the MIR on week 1 of their basic training and CONTINUE with their MIR visits for the remainder of their career.  They have perminate chits limiting them from a myriad of duties. No marching. No lifting. No load bearing. No this or that.
Getting hurt while in the service is one thing.
Joining the forces with a condition, yours for example, and over comming it is something else.
Joining the forces broken and just being a drain on the system AND a headache for everyone is shit.

 

[lawandorder]

I was informed by the Medical Doctor during my recruitment process that I have flat feet.  First time in 20 years I've ever heard that.  That must explain my shin splints.  If proper stretching is done before long marches then any pain that is there can be tolerated.  I've recently learned that I can A:Get vibram's put on my boots, and/or B: Get custom orthodic mould of my foot for my boot.  I currently have no problem with the boots, I just have a better insole that I bought myself placed in them.  I'm Gellin'.

What would guys recommend.  I hear you guys saying the newer, younger guys shouldn't be getting this stuff, not before the guys with TI at least.  Since I have no problem should I wait until I do have a problem, or just foot the bill myself.

 

[ZipperHead]

I was informed by the Medical Doctor during my recruitment process that I have flat feet.  First time in 20 years I've ever heard that.  That must explain my shin splints.  If proper stretching is done before long marches then any pain that is there can be tolerated.  I've recently learned that I can A:Get vibram's put on my boots, and/or B: Get custom orthodic mould of my foot for my boot.  I currently have no problem with the boots, I just have a better insole that I bought myself placed in them.  I'm Gellin'.

What would guys recommend.  I hear you guys saying the newer, younger guys shouldn't be getting this stuff, not before the guys with TI at least.  Since I have no problem should I wait until I do have a problem, or just foot the bill myself.

I think that everyone here agrees that nobody should have to try to fix something after the fact. The fact is that the CF gives a "one size fits all" solution to a problem that has many sizes. Granted, the MK III is an acceptable general purpose boot (hence why it is still in service) for general purposes. It needs to be modified and/or customized to fit the individual. A $600 boot that doesn't fit your foot is $600 poorly spent.

IMO, there should be one (or two) pair(s) of Mk III's issued to one and all, and from there, it's up to the individual to purchase from a range of CF/CFMS/Martha Stewart (just kidding on the last one) approved boots (a la the US system, if I understand it correctly) if they want to look after themeselves. Call it two-tiered foot care, call it what you want, but that would allow pers to do "the right thing" for themselves. When a person wants glasses, they can choose the freebie "birth control" glasses (so called, 'cause you ain't gettin' laid wearing them) or upgrade (out of their own wallet) to something more fashionable/stylish. Why not the same for boots?!?

Again, we are getting sidetracked from the issue at hand: the CF isn't a health care program, designed to take a broken person (from civvy street) and try to fix them, or accomodate pre-existing (known) ailments/maladies/conditions to the detriment of the fighting capability. If a person spends more time in the UMS than on the hangar floor (or the office, or the shop, etc) they are a liability, not an asset. Get well, or get out. That's heartless, but that's life.

Al

 

[Glorified Ape]

Exactly.

Not everyone is going to love the MK3s but the army isn't known for buying the best out there. I'm sure if we bought the top of the line $600 a pair boots some people would still dislike them and require something different.   I can see why the army is not in a rush to go and purchase danners (or whatever) for everyone out of basic (imagine the money wasted on people who only do one engagement?) but i think it would be a good idea to atleast throw vibrim soles on all the Mk3s. Good compromise.

True enough - I think a major issue for most peple with problems with the MkIIIs is simply that they don't provide sufficient cushioning. From what I understand of stress fractures (a seemingly common phenomenon), this can be a major contributing factor.

Glorified Ape in your case I have two opinions. On one hand joining the army with a foot condition seems a little crazy but by the sounds of it you're able to soldier on without much difficulty. Your disadvantaged more than the average guy but it doesn't sound that bad.

I gave it plenty of thought when thinking of joining and made sure I was completely open and honest about my feet with the medics/doctors during application because I had no desire to waste the CFs time (and money) or mine. My condition isn't restrictive at all - I actually have fewer serious problems with my feet than alot of those I've trained with - I've never (to my knowledge) had stress fractures or shin splints and both of those seemed as common as brown eyes in IAP/Basic. I have no problem keeping standard (or better) with these feet and MkIIIs.The issue for me is more that of discomfort. I don't mean regular old "my feet hurt" pain - I'm well versed with that having lived with these feet. The issue is that I end up teetering on the outside of my feet because the sole is too narrow and the side has caved out. Combined with all my weight getting carried by 1/3rd of my foot (that's what the orthotics correct) as a result of the boot mould and the way I walk, it can get bloody painful. With orthotics and a proper boot/sole, I'll likely have no more problems (or even fewer) than your regular joe.

This isn't as much of a problem in garrison (that's where the cushioning problem kicks in) but on uneven terrain in the field, it takes little more than a small rock to roll my ankle over because of the way the boot has moulded over time. My ankles have toughened up over the course of my life and so they don't sprain from things that would generally sprain a regular ankle, but such uneveness (in these boots) just make my ankles hurt like a b----. It gets to a point where my feet and ankles are absolutely killing me. It doesn't affect my performance - I'll keep trucking until something breaks, but it's a constant thorn in the side beyond what should be there.

The problem people are the ones who hit the MIR on week 1 of their basic training and CONTINUE with their MIR visits for the remainder of their career.  They have perminate chits limiting them from a myriad of duties. No marching. No lifting. No load bearing. No this or that.
Getting hurt while in the service is one thing.

I've been to the MIR once while on course and I ensured I received no chit (all I wanted were some anti-inflammatories for a swollen ankle and I wasn't allowed to have non-authorized drugs) because I didn't want to be one of those MIR commandos. Even making that single trip (well into the course) damaged my ego and I felt like a dink because of it. I'd tried to bring the swelling down in our off-hours through ice, compression, and elevation but it wouldn't work.

I can't stand the MIR commandos, especially in regards to feet. If my feet can hack it, 99% of others should be able to (excepting major injuries). My feet are about the worst worst-case-scenario you can get but I've never played the MIR frequent-flyer card and never, EVER want to. All I want is to be able to carry on doing my training and job without the constant, unrelenting pain.

Joining the forces with a condition, yours for example, and over comming it is something else.
Joining the forces broken and just being a drain on the system AND a headache for everyone is crap.

That's really what I don't want to be. If it was just regular, common discomfort then I'd just hump it and deal. I can hump it and deal with the way it is now too, but if it's possible to get as close to normal as possible, I'll take it. Don't get me wrong, this isn't about avoiding the pain everyone else has to put up with, it's about trying to bring my level down to what's "normal". If some vibrams and orthotics save me injury/impediment further on down the road, then I'll be a more efficient soldier because of it. I'd rather cost the system nothing, but if it takes $300 bucks now to prevent $3000 dollars later down the road, I'll do it and swallow my pride. I'd buy this stuff myself but 300 or 400 bucks is beyond what I can afford on Ocdts pay. The last thing I want on my upcoming CAP/PHIII/PHIV infantry this year is to be some MIR schmuck, even if my injuries are legitimate. 

Edit: That was way too long a reply - sorry. I just wanted to get my point across as best I could, without sounding like some whiney "oh but my feet hurt a bit" wanker.

 

[Britney Spears]

Look folks, I understand that our recent history has put us all in an austerity mindset but we ARE a first world army, and in a first world army the most valuable assets are the trained, experienced soldiers themselves. The army has spent $100k just turning me into a one hook pte, is it really cost effective for me to "break" myself and DAG red because the army doesn't want to give me a $25(cost to army=Boot cost($100) less cost of MK3 boot($75? $60?)) pair of boots? Ghost how many CarlG rounds have you fired in your career? How do the cost of those rounds compare to the cost of a pair of gucci boots? The cost of items like boots and and vibram soles even if they cost $600 are PEANUTS compared to the value of a trained, medically fit soldier, never mind an officer or Sr NCO and if we have to give out 10 pairs of freeloader boots to prevent the loss of one soldier who genuine needed it we are still coming out ahead. Let's not miss the forest for the trees here.

 

[George Wallace]

......... because the army doesn't want to give me a $25(cost to army=Boot cost($100) less cost of MK3 boot($75? $60?)) pair of boots?

My Math isn't too good, but something don't jive here:

$25 for $100 boots because the $100 boots are only $25 more than $75 MK3s.........  ???

I see it as $75 MK3s that are already bought, plus the $100 gucci boots, totalling $175.

Why do I have a difference of $150 in my answer from what you proposed in your example   ???

My answer seems to be 7 X Yours    ???

 

[Britney Spears]

I see it as $75 MK3s that are already bought, plus the $100 gucci boots, totalling $175.

Already bought but as yet unissued, thus not accounted as cost, right? And since apparently there are a healthy number of troops who seem to like the silly things, the MK3 boots can still be issued and thus retain their full value. 

 

[TCBF]

Actually, given that the Gucci's mean 1 LESS pair of stock Mk IIIs will be used, it works out.

Hey how about us going nuts trying to get new OG 107 combats in the 90s, and when time comes to go to the new relish, the Navy has WAREHOUSES full of brand new old stuff.  

Unification, my butt.

Tom

 

[George Wallace]

Already bought but as yet unissued, thus not accounted as cost, right? And since apparently there are a healthy number of troops who seem to like the silly things, the MK3 boots can still be issued and thus retain their full value. 

Exactly.....already bought, and counted as Cost.  Add on all your new gucci boots and it doesn't matter how many "healthy number of troops who seem to like the silly things, the MK3 boots can still be issued and thus retain their full value." you may find, you have put two to three times the amount of cost and strain onto the Supply System.

I know....it has to be the New Math......that is why the New Army is so screwed.......because of all the New guys with the New Math.   :boring:

 

[TCBF]

We can just get a Hornet do do 30 seconds less on full afterburner next week, and it will all work out.

 

[Britney Spears]

Exactly.....already bought, and counted as Cost.  Add on all your new gucci boots and it doesn't matter how many "healthy number of troops who seem to like the silly things, the MK3 boots can still be issued and thus retain their full value." you may find, you have put two to three times the amount of cost and strain onto the Supply System.

No, a pair of boots bought but not issued would be an ASSET, because it's still in stores and you haven't USED IT UP yet. Cost would imply that there was no further value left in the boot once you bought it, which plainly is not the case.

Why don't we assign the pair of unissued boots a depreciation value too? and a salvage value based on what it would cost to sell as surplus, and assign it a portion of the cost of the warehouse used to store it, the salary of the supply tech who hands it out, the present value of the one less pair of boot the army has to buy next year based on a 5% cost of capital......We can nit pick this all day but that really isn't my point.

 

[George Wallace]

Our Supply System can your people like you. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

MIR commandos

That word always irks me
Soldiers with valid injuries get shamed with being called an "mir commando" yet the REAL commandos don't give a shit WHAT you call them. The MIR is a free ticket and they don't care how they get in line, as long as they are there heh.

I've been to the MIR enough times myself. Broken ribs, cracked ribs, dislocated shoulder (3 times), burned fingers, rolled ankles, CLP in my eye, cuts and stitches etc..  What gets me, which i've bitched about before, is the guys who show up on a tasking (or posting maybe?) and hit the MIR on day 1.  Umm I'm broken I can't do PT.  Some guys ARE injured, some guys milk the system. ie a soldier with a no PT chit for 6 months laughing at our platoon running by doing PT bragging about how good breakfast was when we ran by her.

Brittany Spears- How many carl G rounds have I fired in my 10 years, at  $10'000 (?) a pop?  I think quite a few, more than the average reservist. I'd say betwene 6 and 8?

Are there better boots out there? of course.  Could we afford better boots then the MK3s? Probably.  Which exact boots we should get would take years to decide I'm sure and like I said even then people will call them shit.
Maybe we could use some kind of buy your own boots for under $400 and be reinbursted? I don't know, i'd be down for that idea.  I'm not going to say the MK3s are without problems. I'd have loved the army to buy my magnum stealths or put on vibrim soles for free. I'm not saying we can't get better or don't deserve it.  The problem here is that people who DON'T specifically require special footwear, screw the system and get them anyways - when like many others they can make due.
And I think a problem that comes along with that is if you can screw the system for nicey boots why not screw the system for something else?
Lie about a healthy problem to get nice boots
Lie about something to get extra leave
Lie about something to get taken off a tour you dont feel like going on.
Lie about a boss causes he's an idiot and you dont wanna deal with him
It's a matter of integrity.

 

[Britney Spears]

No disagreement about the integrity part, but as I have tried to illustrate the entire problem can be avoided at minimal cost by reforming the scale of issue and/or switching to a more modern boot design. The only reason I need special boots is that with my orthotics(prescribed by my civvy podiatrist and purchased at my own expense) I simply cannot fit my foot into a MK3. This problem would not exist if the laces on the 3s extended down  past the arch of the foot like all modern boot designs(e.g.CWWB) do, but they don't so I'm "SOL". I am also taking issue with the posters who feel that  one must be "broken" or have 10 years in before they "deserve" to have special issue boots. The cost/benefit ratio of new boots vs broken troops makes this uneconomical, not to mention mean-spirited and morale crushing.

 

[TCBF]

I had no real problems with boots until we went "Mondopoint" in 81 or so.  The sizes changed and  they never told us, and I walked Pangnirtung Pass in a pair of boots that - once wet - allowed the sole to ride up the side of my boots.

Medic: "Why are your boots on sideways?"

Me: "Very funny."

An old retired Guardsman working QM in Cornwallis the next summer took pity on the new instructor, and gave me the best fitting boots I ever had - Mark IIIs in 7 1/2 - 8C.

But, they have to be Sunbeams, Grebs are even tighter across the arch, and I did Nijmegan in brand new 8 1/2 Ds one year because the Grebs crippled me.  So did the bigger boots, but I put 200 km on them in four days...

I, too, wear orthotics, and had to ask the QM here at Wainwright to do the 'spray your boots with alcohol, put the turnscrews under the arch inside the boots and leave over night trick' or I could not wear my orthotics. 

Before I discovered they had such a device, I dreamed of inventing one.  I used to spray 'Spray Pam' on my boots, then wear them.  The alcohol in the spray Pam loosened the arch and my foot then expanded it, until my feet just got tired of doing it.    A good friend of mine (since deceased) who was a ball player used to spray pam his new gloves - glove the ball about a hundred or so times, then masking tape the glove around the ball overnight.  He said "Try it on the boots."

It worked.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Pisses me off that the boot sizes change. I got a new pair of MK3s and without trying them on (my fault I supose, i've always been a 7F) I paid $80 to put vibrim soles on them and come me trying them on, they are too small.

I am also taking issue with the posters who feel that  one must be "broken" or have 10 years in before they "deserve" to have special issue boots. The cost/benefit ratio of new boots vs broken troops makes this uneconomical, not to mention mean-spirited and morale crushing.

Agreed. I still feel it's a matter of integrity.

A 10 year "vet" who kills his knees and back.
A determined soldier who has feet/knee issues who will bennifit from nice boots which help him soldier on.
A brand new soldier who just wants highspeed boots.
I can think of 2 out of 3 people who deserve it more.

I agree that it's a matter of economics. It's better to give a soldier better boots to save themselves greif over the next 10 or 15 years. You'll save money in the long run.
It's less economical to dish out the same boots to a guy who's gonna quit after 2 or 3 years.  Problem is how do you tell who's who.

 

[TCBF]

Remember that boots - like anything else - are built within specs.  The tighter the specs - the more expensive the product.  If there are five machines producing a size 9 boot, they will all be diffenent sizes - but most likely still within spec.  You take Grebs size 7, and the new pair don't fit?  Try a few other pair of the same size - they might.  If not, see if they have any in that size from another contractor.

 

[ZipperHead]

I think a part of the "new math" equation that hasn't been taken into account (and Armyvern can correct me if I'm wrong here) is that when something like a "combat" boot is bought for the whole CF (in other words, it's not just for those that would do combat (i.e the combat arms)), that is a goodly number. Let's say 60,000 (which I always hear in the news). Multiply that by 2 (2 pairs per individual). That's 120,000. There must be a "magic" number for replacements, extras, etc. Let's say 25% (a nice round number). That's 30,000. Total=150,000. Multiply by $200. I pulled that number square out of my ass, but I'm sure the Mk III is in that ballpark (MILSPEC, somebodies pocket getting padded, made from the finest Corinthian leather......). That's 30 MIILLLLLIIIIOOOONNNNN (said like Dr Evil from Austin Powers) dollars.

Granted, when you are talking the difference between $30M and $45M (assuming that a Gucci pair of boots would cost 50% more), that isn't a lot of cabbage (in the big picture), but the Gucci boots will have their detractors (you can never please everybody.....), and the new Gucci boots will then "need" to be replaced by people who hate the Mk IV's (or whatever the "new" boots are designated). And around and around it goes.

Don't get me wrong: I would be glad to see the last of the Mk III's. I would also be glad to see the day that a soldier can purchase (with a boot allowance perhaps) their own boots (from a range of approved boots: orthopedically sound, durable, quality footware). Of course, the system would still have to provide an initial issue (for recruits and those too cheap to put out any money required, or those that are 100% satisfied by the existing boot). Will that day come soon? My grandchildren will probably be on their retirement posting before that happens.

Al