Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]

[Pusser]

With more than 2 years it has to be transfered.  I do however know, that some pension plans are not transferable into others for various reasons (federal, provincial). 

Not quite correct.  It does not HAVE to be transferred, although that might be an option.  Deferral is also an option.  This is where you leave it alone and you start to draw the pension later in life (i.e. at retirement age).  Keep in mind that it continues to grow as it sits there.  All federal pensions are transferable to other federal pensions (CF to RCMP to Public Service or other combinations thereof); however, if you're able to start drawing an immediate annuity (i.e. after 20/25 years) you're probably better off to do that and simply start paying into the new plan.

 

[TheHead]

If you go Regular Force (without primary reserve experience)  after 30, I am thinking you are more or less stuck as a Captain or Sergeant.  Combat Arms is probably out too: training almost kills 18 year olds.

  I did my SQ and BIQ with a guy who was almost 40.  He would smoke a pack of cigerettes and drink 3 coffee for breakfast and he still managed to keep up most of the time with the younger recruits.  Heart alone kept him from quitting the course.

 

[svejk]

Totally agreed Pusser.  After 2 years transfer to another federal plan, transfer to an Locked In RRSP, or wait until 65 to collect monthly payments.  Isn't very different from civilian world.

Comments in regards to combat arms and rank possible  are "thinking" and "probably" and aren't the Final  Word by any means (these are forums?).  I also made those comments based on  conversations that I have had with NCOs and Offrs from Combat Arms on this very subject over the Years.  We all know guys who are older but still fitter than thou but they are an exception rather than rule, no?  Anything is possible though.

Cheers

 

[SeanNewman]

Being gym fit, running fit, or fighting fit does not equal soldier fit.  Combat Arms phase training has broken the spirits of hundreds of "fit" 20-35 year olds because it's a different type of fitness and toughness.

Being able to run a 40 minute 10km or doing a dozen reps of 225 does not mean that you can carry an 80 pound rucksack night after night after night of sleep deprivation while fighting off rain and mosquitoes, while still finding the courage to keep yourself motivated let alone inspiring your platoon to follow you.

I say this not to take the wind out of your sails, but because in order for you to succeed in the military it will be in your best interest to focus on what the next two years will involve than worrying about what you'll do after that.

 

[Scott]

Comments in regards to combat arms and rank possible  are "thinking" and "probably" and aren't the Final  Word by any means (these are forums?).  I also made those comments based on  conversations that I have had with NCOs and Offrs from Combat Arms on this very subject over the Years. 

Then you should have started your original statement with some thing like this:
"In conversation with an Officer/NCO..." or something similar because what you are giving out is second hand information.

Instead of trying to pass the thought of as your own.

Scott
Staff

 

[Bigg_H]

If you go Regular Force (without primary reserve experience)  after 30, I am thinking you are more or less stuck as a Captain or Sergeant.  Combat Arms is probably out too: training almost kills 18 year olds.

I am 36 and thinking of doing this as well since I have decided I am not a businessman:  Money matters work out fair enough and I am single.  Too bad I am broken for a bit.

It is being stuck in a role that I am worried about and not so much the training. I am in excellent shape and so I am confident I would do well in the Combat arms, training and etc. Also, past 40, once the physical advantage that youth gives begins to wane, where does a guy in the combat arms go? Can he, for example, take a Master's degree and obtain a post as a 'thinker' or policy guy?

 

[Bigg_H]

Being gym fit, running fit, or fighting fit does not equal soldier fit.  Combat Arms phase training has broken the spirits of hundreds of "fit" 20-35 year olds because it's a different type of fitness and toughness.

Being able to run a 40 minute 10km or doing a dozen reps of 225 does not mean that you can carry an 80 pound rucksack night after night after night of sleep deprivation while fighting off rain and mosquitoes, while still finding the courage to keep yourself motivated let alone inspiring your platoon to follow you.

I say this not to take the wind out of your sails, but because in order for you to succeed in the military it will be in your best interest to focus on what the next two years will involve than worrying about what you'll do after that.

I hear what you are saying. But I am not at that point where I will be signing a contract tomorrow and so I do need to consider the next 25 years, as I am planning a 25-year career and not a 2-year career. Besides, the worst case scenario that Army life doesn't appeal to me is at least a 9 year committment, so I have to think at least 9 years ahead. But were I to be signing a contract tomorrow, I would look on making it through each day of training instead of x number of years ahead.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

It is being stuck in a role that I am worried about and not so much the training. I am in excellent shape and so I am confident I would do well in the Combat arms, training and etc. Also, past 40, once the physical advantage that youth gives begins to wane, where does a guy in the combat arms go? Can he, for example, take a Master's degree and obtain a post as a 'thinker' or policy guy?

If I am reading this thread correctly you are 32.  Assuming you joined in the near future you could be looking at being a 35 year old platoon commander/troop leader.  You would be older than your peers, but there are folks out there platoon/commanding troop leading in their 30s.

Assuming everything goes well at each stage (ie you are a rock star) I will try to map out a career path for you in the Armoured Corps (since it is what I know best):

a.  32 to 34 - Initial training (could be faster/might be slower)

b.  35 to 36 - Troop Leading tour at the Regiment.  Promoted Captain at some point there depending on your entry stream

c.  37 to 39- 1st ERE tour (extra regimental employment) most likely at the Armour School or as the Reg F Capt at a Reserve Unit

d.  40 to 42 - Captain tour at the Regiment (BC/2IC/Maybe big 3 job like Adjt/Ops O/2IC HQ Sqn) 

At this point you would be an experienced armoured officer, but you would be close to ten years older than your peers.  You would be a couple of years away from promotion to Major (assuming you had the performance/potential) and would be looking at being a 45/46 year old Sqn Commander.  I was a Troop Leader at 27 and I think that I am the oldest Squadron Commander (OC) right now at 39.  I don't think that we would have a 46 year old OC.  That doesn't mean you couldn't get promoted to Major and have challenging/rewarding jobs.  I would just be surprised if you stayed in the Command stream unless you did something like capture Bin Laden.

Those challenging jobs I refer to can be in any number of places like Doctrine, Training, Lessons Learned, equipment procurement, the DOTCOM HQs, etc.  If you were of an academic bent you could conceivably pursue a Masters (usually on your own time) and some guys go into thinking jobs where they talk about JIMP-capable network-enabled command centric dispersed operations.  You could certainly stay at Captain, but lots of folks do that regardless of age so it is something you need to be prepared for when you join.  I was ready for that and enjoyed my time as a Captain and would have served on as such.  You would face a disadvantage when being compared to younger peers since they would have "legs" while you would not.  It would be conceivable for you to not come back for that Captain tour at the Regiment but serve in a variety of Captain appointments in the Army/CF.  I think that you could still have a rewarding career, but I wouldn't plan on being a unit CO. 

 

[Pusser]

I hear what you are saying. But I am not at that point where I will be signing a contract tomorrow and so I do need to consider the next 25 years, as I am planning a 25-year career and not a 2-year career. Besides, the worst case scenario that Army life doesn't appeal to me is at least a 9 year committment, so I have to think at least 9 years ahead. But were I to be signing a contract tomorrow, I would look on making it through each day of training instead of x number of years ahead.

Why do I keep hearing about nine year commitments?  What are the recruiting centres telling people?  What are people hearing? 

There is a difference between obligatory service and service required to complete an engagement (i.e. contract for lack of a better word).  You only have to remain in the CF for your period of obligatory service.  This usually varies between three and five years (there are exceptions of course).  However, you can get out before you finish your engagement.  You will take a hit on the benefits, but you can still get out.  The only folks really looking at anything close to a nine year commitment are the ROTP candidates who have their educations paid for.  This is because their obligatory service (usually 4/5 years) starts AFTER they finish RMC/civilian university.

 

[aesop081]

Why do I keep hearing about nine year commitments? 

Because people either don't listen to what the CFRCs tell them or they read information on sites like this, information that they do not have the knowledge to put into the proper context.Then they think they have it figured out......

Not saying this is the case here but sometimes, a little information is a bad thing.

 

[SeanNewman]

Because for a lot of officer plans, nine years is the initial engagement the way three years is for a lot of NCM paths.

 

[Pusser]

Because for a lot of officer plans, nine years is the initial engagement the way three years is for a lot of NCM paths.

No officer plan requires nine years obligatory service.  You may give up some benefits if you get out before nine years, but you can still get out.  Initial engagements for officers and NCMs are not the same.

 

[George Wallace]

No officer plan requires nine years obligatory service.  You may give up some benefits if you get out before nine years, but you can still get out.  Initial engagements for officers and NCMs are not the same.

I guess you are not in Recruiting.

VIE for MOC 21 ARMD  DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 22 ARTY    DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 23 INF      DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 31 ANAV    DEO is 6 years - ROTP  9 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 32 PLT      DEO is 9 years - ROTP 12 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 39 AEC      DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 41 AERE    DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 43 EME      DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 46 AF ENGR DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 49 PHY TH  DEO is 6 years - ROTP  9 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 51 DENT      DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 48 HCA        DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
.
.
VIE for MOC 67 LEGAL    DEO is 4 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
.
VIE for MOC 81 MPO      DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
.
.
.
.
and on and on. (I got tired of data entry but you can see that obligatory Service (VIE) varies from 0 to 13 years, with the average being 9 for DEO and 13 for ROTP.  Some Trades as MOC 54 PHARM, 57 NUR, 55 MED, and 56 BIO also have a CE of 5 years.)
 



VIE for MOC 57 nur    DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - CE 5 years - IE 25

 

[SeanNewman]

Pusser,

Technically you're right, because I have seen all sorts of my peers quit over the last decade without going to jail.

Most of the penalties would be financial, in terms of having to pay for your education if you were either ROTP or RMC, but if you're a CEOTP or DEO it's a relatively clean break. 

I don't know the details of how the pension thing works, but I do know that people quit during training and quit after training and were civilians within a year or so.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . you can see that obligatory Service (VIE) varies . . .]

Obligatory service (mandatory service incurred as a result of subsidized education or training) is different than VIE (terms of service).

ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 05/05 stills lists CFAO 15-2 Release – Regular Force as a reference.  Since CFAOs are no longer available online to the unwashed (or retired), I was only able to access a copy on an old OLTRS disk.  It may have been since amended, if so, I welcome the correction.  However, this paragraph may be applicable to the discussion.

CFAO 15-2 Annex A
RELEASE -ENROLMENT ON OR AFTER 1 JAN 82

39.  A member, except those serving under ROTP, MOTP, DOTP, or DITP, who
enrols, re-enrols or transfers into the Regular Force on or after 1 Jan 82,
and requests voluntary release, will not normally have that request
approved, except during a period of recruit training as specified in
paragraph 36 of this annex, for a period of three years commencing from the
date of enrolment unless compassionate circumstances exist.  Subject to the
requirement to complete the initial three year period of service, a member
must submit that request at least six months in advance of the preferred
date of release or the commencement of terminal leave whichever is earlier.
Subject to deferral for a military requirement, as prescribed in paragraph
44 of this annex, the request will normally be approved to be effective on
the date requested.  Should military and personal requirements be
compatible, the six-month period of notice may be reduced by the approving
authority at NDHQ.

While the NDA provides the legal authority to keep serving soldiers in uniform until they have completed every day of a term of service to which they agreed (and more involuntarily in case of certain emergency periods), there is plenty of latitude in how that has been applied with many exceptions being given; so many that the exception probably became the rule.

 

[SeanNewman]

My first instinct is that I wouldn't want anyone in the Army who doesn't want to be there, I change that opinion when considering all of the undesirable jobs that most people don't want to do.

The same way I wouldn't want a conscript fighting beside me, I also wouldn't want a guy who has changed his mind about wanting to be there.

That being said, you could easily keep the "quitters" in the CF and far away from life and death decisions.  The could do everything from commissionaire-like jobs (think permanent duty officer so nobody else ever has to do it), to floating members who do all the mundane jobs like shoveling snow (Pte/Cpls) or Summary Investigations (2Lt/Lts).

Basically, it would allow all of those people who are living up to their commitment obligations to focus on their chosen profession, be it being a soldier or leading soldiers.

It's not like they're getting punished or sent to jail; they're just living up to what they signed on for, and now they have to do less-than-ideal jobs (like being posted to Wainwright so someone else doesn't have to be).

 

[Pusser]

I guess you are not in Recruiting.

VIE for MOC 21 ARMD  DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 22 ARTY    DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 23 INF      DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 31 ANAV    DEO is 6 years - ROTP  9 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 32 PLT      DEO is 9 years - ROTP 12 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 39 AEC      DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 41 AERE    DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 43 EME      DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 46 AF ENGR DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 49 PHY TH  DEO is 6 years - ROTP  9 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 51 DENT      DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 48 HCA        DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
.
.
VIE for MOC 67 LEGAL    DEO is 4 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
.
VIE for MOC 81 MPO      DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
.
.
.
.
and on and on. (I got tired of data entry but you can see that obligatory Service (VIE) varies from 0 to 13 years, with the average being 9 for DEO and 13 for ROTP.  Some Trades as MOC 54 PHARM, 57 NUR, 55 MED, and 56 BIO also have a CE of 5 years.)
 



VIE for MOC 57 nur    DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - CE 5 years - IE 25

A VIE is not obligatory service.  The VIE replaced the old Short Service Engagement (SSE)and Short Engagement (SE) for officers.  The SSE was essentially your time as an officer cadet (it was easy to terminate and, therfore, made it easy to get rid of training failures).  The SE was more or less equivalent to the NCMs' Basic Engagement (BE).  The SE was nine years commissioned service, which meant that an ROTP officer would normally complete 13 years of service (4 yrs at school, + 9 yrs) before being able to get out with full benefits for completing his/her terms of service.  This did not mean that he/she had 9 or 13 years of obligatory service.  The same applies under the newer VIE (i.e. not much has actually changed).  A candidate is only committed to obligatory service.  They will give up benefits for not completing their term of service (ie. the VIE), but they can still get out without too much difficulty before completing it.

You can get out under certain circumstances even if you haven't completed your obligatory service, but that is more difficult.

 

[northernboy_24]

obligatory service  DAOD 5049-1

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

to bring clarification as to what is obligatory vs. Variable initial contract

 

[Shotta]

Kid......Didn't we more or less answer that with your first forray on this site?  Yes some people do come in as 2Lt, if they have previous mil experience.  Some may come in as Captains if they are CFR'd from the rank of CWO.  Some may come in as a Capt if they are a Lawyer or Doctor with a very high education.  Don't, however, expect to come in as anything else than an OCdt.

Is OCDT the only rank available on enrolment for officers in the Primary Reserves too?

 

[iron_mike]

hi everyone -

i've done some reading up here and on the CF website, but it's always nice to have some human opinions, too. 

i'm coming toward the end of my PhD in anthropology and am considering applying to the CF.  intelligence officer seems like it fits my skills and interest. 

on most aspects of recruitment i feel fine - i'm in excellent shape, good health, speak a few languages, etc.  i was with the cadets as a kid, so range and drill might come back to me a bit easier than a complete rookie. 

however, since the age of 10 i've lived in about 8 countries and traveled to 40 or so.  things like listing my addresses will be a serious challenge - i literally can't remember them all.  similarly, providing medical records - i haven't had a conisistent family doctor since i was a kid. 

so i'm guessing that if i go through with it, the recruitment process for me would take ages?

also, does anyone have any insights in entering CF with a PhD?  any changes in entry rank etc? 

and specific insights into the intelligence officer track?


thanks!
-mike