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Desexualized clothing instructions fail for gender specific directions

Jarnhamar said:
Maybe we could go the other way with unit padres and make them the biggest meanest toughest members of a regiment. When they're not in the gym terrifying weights they're roaming the halls meriting out punishment for members who fail to recite the Reg­i­men­tal Cat­e­chisms, routine orders, battle honours and such  :camo:

How about a sniper?

David Cooper was a Bisley shot and coached the 2 PARA rifle team - oh, and he passed P Company, Parachute Training and served in the Falklands War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cooper_(chaplain)
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
I actually like this idea, EVERYONE should be the same.  Same uniforms, same haircuts, same shoes, same everything.  If women can grow their hair out then men should be allowed as well.  Likewise, if women want earrings then men should be allowed earrings as well.  Either both have the option or nobody does.  Pretty simple? 

Nice true equality absent of any stupid cultural and societal biases.

Her Majesty's Danish Armed Forces has very relaxed regulations. Beards are permitted for anyone, hair is not required to be kept short. I met a Danish Combat Engineer, he had a thick red beard and long hair tied back in a single braid. He was also jacked as hell. Looked pretty awesome too.
 
George Wallace said:
Seriously....I am waiting for the day that the military goes back to being ADULTS.  Since the mid-80's the Canadian military has increasingly expanded a philosophy of treating its members more like children than adults, and as a result, they have begun acting like children and not taking responsibility for their actions.

That day is still in the future, but I think it may actually happen.

There was a mid 80s trend "maximum supervision" thing - in other words micro manage.
 
Hamish Seggie said:
There was a mid 80s trend "maximum supervision" thing - in other words micro manage.

I do not remember being overly-supervised or micro-managed in the 1980s. I see an awful lot of that now, though, thanks mainly to modern technology. That was supposed to make life easier, not to enable commanders to do the job of subordinates one or two levels down.
 
LunchMeat said:
Her Majesty's Danish Armed Forces has very relaxed regulations. Beards are permitted for anyone, hair is not required to be kept short. I met a Danish Combat Engineer, he had a thick red beard and long hair tied back in a single braid. He was also jacked as hell. Looked pretty awesome too.

They also have kickass soldiers, worthy of their Viking reputation.  Meanwhile in Canada, I get a Staph Infection on my face and have every Tom, Dick and Harry asking where my beard chit is.
 
Coffee_psych said:
Yeah and these sexualized clothing instructions knocked us back into the 1970s...

Last time I wore a CAF uniform was during that decade, as a Reservist. So, it's not for me to comment on what's right for the youth of today.

But, as far as I am concerned, life back then may not have been as bad as you perhaps might think.

Let's just say they were different times.  :)
 
mariomike said:
Last time I wore a CAF uniform was during that decade, as a Reservist. So, it's not for me to comment on the generation of today.

But, as far as I am concerned, life back then may not have been as bad as you perhaps might think.

Let's just say they were different times.  :)

All I remember from back then was being asked twice in TO airport to carry the bags of some civie.  Explaining that my summer short sleeve order was the uniform of a member of the military, they looked at me said that the uniform looked like a porter.  Although retired, I am in favor of sufficient bling for soldiers to not look like they are snooping for a tip at airports and train stations. 
 
I seem to recollect that during the 60's the West German Army issued hair nets for their soldiers to keep their in vogue long hair neat. Also saw Dutch soldiers with "pageboy" hair style under their berets with hair nets while on leave in Amsterdam in 1968. Got a photo somewhere of that.
 
Lightguns said:
retired, I am in favor of sufficient bling for soldiers to not look like they are snooping for a tip at airports and train stations.

Don't worry, military members generally don't wear DEU (unless in Ottawa) enough to make the public think they're porters  >:D
 
Rifleman62 said:
I seem to recollect that during the 60's the West German Army issued hair nets for their soldiers to keep their in vogue long hair neat. Also saw Dutch soldiers with "pageboy" hair style under their berets with hair nets while on leave in Amsterdam in 1968. Got a photo somewhere of that.

Early '80's, in the Bahn 41 Dutch mess, soldier at bar with hair down to their ass.  Turns around and has beard.  Another Heineken down range.
 
Dimsum said:
Don't worry, military members generally don't wear DEU (unless in Ottawa) enough to make the public think they're porters  >:D

Never thought about that, but I really liked travelling out of uniform on the military dime!
 
Nothing wrong with a little hair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dyl0j3WU6Y

;D

And see the actual USN LSO's in this scene from the Final Countdown, at 1 min. 10 sec. That was actually accepted hair styles in the USN in the 70's. I don't think it would pass today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bshTKiwYc

More seriously, however, I disagree that having "different" clothing or dress instructions for men and women is either proof of backwardness on the part of the CF or that "desexualized" instructions are something whose time has come.

I have many reasons for believing this to be the case:

1- Even though we live in "our" world, our members must also spend their private life in the society in general. We cannot ask for our female members to wear "men's" haircuts that, while found in society from time to time are even today the rare exception to what is generally worn by women in the Canadian public. To do so, would expose them to attracting attention to themselves in public. So they should be allowed to wear short haircuts if they wish (already the case) but should also be allowed to wear haircuts close to the lenght generally found in society, which is also already the case in the regulation.

2- As representatives of the state, we are required to project a good image in public. This means reasonably conservative dressing in public. A good test for this is what is generally accepted as business dress in society. And as of right now, our dress standards are pretty well in line with what is acceptable and done in society, including the difference between men and women dress and deportment.

This doesn't mean that some changes couldn't be done.

For instance, headdress: In the Navy, as an example, the ball cap and berets are already similar, why not the service cap too? If you look at cruise ships and merchant ships where officers wear caps, they use the same for men and women. This logic IMHO could apply to the Army and Air Force too - especially as they are moving to beret and/or wedge caps only.


Another instance would be longer haircuts/beards for men. It is perfectly acceptable for men to wear those in society, why not in uniform? I would only make exception for actual operational deployments, where short cuts and no beard could still be the rule.

Also, small studs and hearings, together with light make up is accepted for men today in business attire, so again here, some modification could be done for personnel not deployed operationally that would be in line with what is acceptable in society. Again, same rule for all operationally deployed: none of it.

Finally, as regards women uniforms, I personally would have no problem with the elimination of the skirts from the available attires (and my wife who served for 15 years wholeheartedly hated the damn things, which she only appreciated on those rare 30 degrees/100% humidity days). Considering the limited number of times we dress in CF these days, it would not be a great loss.

However, this doesn't mean adopting a single uniform (male pattern) for  all. The blouse should remain. In society today, business attire does not include male shirts or suits for women. Besides, no matter what, you would need two different cuts: the human body has not changed and men and women do not have the same usual body shape. We can't change that, except for loose fitting clothing such as the operational dress.

 
 
Lightguns said:
All I remember from back then was being asked twice in TO airport to carry the bags of some civie.  Explaining that my summer short sleeve order was the uniform of a member of the military, they looked at me said that the uniform looked like a porter. 

Sorry to hear that.

I would have been so used to lifting and carrying the civies of TO themselves  on my career job that I would likely not have remembered such an insult 40 years later.  :)

Not to say one generation is better or worse than the other, just different.  :)
 
Coffee_psych said:
A few of you have mentioned that the military is known to lag behind.  I am hoping that the military will be setting the precedent in a few years.  When human rights are upheld, seriously, and with respect, that's all that is needed to rise above.  Like the four major components of being successful in the army: Courage, Integrity, Loyalty, and Duty. 

If we work hard, and aren't lazy, we will get so much further. 

Yeah and these sexualized clothing instructions knocked us back into the 1970s...

A few comments:

1.  You say 'we' and 'us'.  I recommend not including yourself in the "we" "us" stuff;  you've never served a day in the CAF. 

2.  "human rights" stuff.  The dress regs allow for accommodations for things like gender, religion, first nations, etc.  Do some homework before you haul out the wide brush.  The people in the CAF aren't ''gender-neutral", so not sure how you expect things like dress instructions to be. 

3.  The message that was attempted to be delivered was poorly constructed and worded, but there was elements of the intended message that were valid;  the chosen words were from the 'daft' category. 

:2c:
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
They also have kickass soldiers, worthy of their Viking reputation.  Meanwhile in Canada, I get a Staph Infection on my face and have every Tom, Dick and Harry asking where my beard chit is.

And sailors too, was really impressed with their Viking crew on the NATO with us.  Love the Danes.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
For instance, headdress: In the Navy, as an example, the ball cap and berets are already similar, why not the service cap too? If you look at cruise ships and merchant ships where officers wear caps, they use the same for men and women.

The USN is actually doing that right now; female Chiefs and Officers can wear the male peaked cap, and NCMs can wear the Dixie Cup hat.  Also, USN females will be wearing the male "square rig" uniforms and high-collar whites in the next few years.

https://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2015/10/09/sweeping-uniform-changes-emphasize-gender-neutrality/73602238/
 
Do we have all that much female clothing left in the military?  In my day every but combats was different for women, even the colour of their "Greens" was lighter, their shirt collars rounded instead pointed, oxfords with a heel, etc.  I can only think of tunics, Navy bowler hats, skirts and dress shoes as being different now.  I see no issue in females wearing the forage cap, cops do.  Ban skirts and eliminate the oxford for both and go with low boot for all (including the officers).  This leave only tunics to be phased in with new female sizes.  No new gear just new dress regs.  Mess kit, wear what you buy!

The religious crap is a horse of another colour, I doubt you will ever re-secularize the military again in a multi tribe country like Canada. 
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
For instance, headdress: In the Navy, as an example, the ball cap and berets are already similar, why not the service cap too? If you look at cruise ships and merchant ships where officers wear caps, they use the same for men and women. This logic IMHO could apply to the Army and Air Force too - especially as they are moving to beret and/or wedge caps only.

IAW with the latest Naval Dress Committee minutes, females will now have the option of wearing either the Peaked Cap or the Bowler. Their initial issue will remain as the Bowler, however.

Men are still restricted to the Peaked Cap... unfortunately... ;D
 
I find it interesting that most of the female MARS Officers of a certain age that I know prefer the bowler cap.

The younger ones seem ambivalent.
 
When the decision came out, I spoke to a few of them, and the consensus was not that they wanted to wear the Peaked Cap, but that they didn't want to wear the Bowler. Letting them wear the peaked cap didn't fix their original issue.
 
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