Danny Williams lowers the Canadian Flag

[mo-litia]

That's my point - the provinces need to stop bitching.. . If the provinces want to engage in realistic, productive policy formation then great - do it . . .The PM said one thing and did another... this still shocks people? That's the way it works... Ugh... Ralph Klein, the achy (sic) pseudo-Texan who'd like to see a glorious Bush-style Alberta? If more of our politicians were cut from that cloth, we'd be in dire circumstances...

The provinces are just that - provinces, not countries... Sometimes the provinces need a smack in the face... IMO, we need weaker provinces, not stronger ones... We need a federal government that will keep the provinces in line . . .

Glorified Ape,

Thank you very much. You have just nicely summarized the stereotypical, (I'd like to say typical, but for the sake of impartiality, I won't!), Ontarian attitude towards the rest of Canada.   Weaker provinces - yeah, Ottawa would definitely love that; being able to control   everything the provinces are now responsible for - including resource revenues!

IMO, The attitude that your writings espouse is outdated and unacceptable to the vast majority of Canadians outside Ontario.    A central govt that controlled everything in the best interests of their voters, (But, only the best interests of those voters in Ontario who have kept those scoundrels in power almost perpetually!), may have been acceptable in the distant past.

Fortunately for the rest of Canada, as the overall level of knowledge about domestic affairs has increased drastically thoughout the nation - largely due to massive improvements in public education over the past half century - people are expressing their anger at the gross imbalance of power that exists in the nation today.   The rest of the nation is fed up, and the federal govt, and therefore Ontario, is going to have to recognize that before this great experiment of a nation implodes upon itself.   The situation may not be critical as of yet, but given another decade or so of Ottawa's bumbling, misguided governing that ignores serious national issues, (Hmmmm . . . DEFENCE comes to mind.), solely because those Liberal megalomaniacs are more concerned with maintaining their grip on power, this country will very likely tear itself apart.

It is about time that those in   what used to be known as Upper Canada wake up.   Your forefathers started this great nation, and now, you as voters have the responsibility to act by electing a govt who will truly act in the NATIONAL interest.   Otherwise, in a generation or so, Upper Canada will be able to rename itself Canada; for there will likely be no other areas of this country willing to be part of Confederation anymore.

I hope am am wrong about this, but it is up to the voters in Ontario to recognize that being the center of power has far more to it than just lining your own pockets for your immediate, short sighted benefit.  

Cheers on raising up the flag again Mr. Williams; I hope you got what your province rightfully deserves. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.  

 

[Kirkhill]

Good post mo-litia, I agree with you.  And I agree that Danny was right to put up the flags again after his point was made.  He hasn't made any enemies in Newfoundland, that vote him in, and has made a few friends and enemies amongt the rest of Canada.... Now what was that line about there being no bad publicity?  Better than being ignored.

Paul is still the go to guy on this one.  He is the one that has to convince Newfoundland not to vote Conservative next election.  Has he made any friends anywhere else recently that would result in a better showing than last time?  I don't believe so.

By the way Ontario used to be Upper Canada.  Quebec was Lower Canada.  Ontario is Upstream and Quebec is Downstream.

Cheers.

 

[ex_coelis]

Hey Ex-Infanteer,

Just noticed a good story in the telegram.   If you ever choose to live up to your threat and show up in Newfoundland with torch in hand (a la General Sherman in Atlanta), you'd best hope you don't run into this _real_ General (Ex-CO of 3CDO, Ex-22SAS, Dutch HALO Jumper, +more high speed training than your 23 year old ex-corporal head could imagine).   He is one of the finest officers I ever had the pleasure to serve under and as a proud Canadian and prouder Newfoundlander,   I'm happy to see his take on the matter in print.

Retired soldier supports flag removal    
BY WILL HILLIARD, The Telegram

 
 
Retired brigadier general Ed Ring stands next to his pink, white and green flag at his home in Manuels, accompanied by his Newfoundland dog, Ceilihd.
KEITH GOSSE/THE TELEGRAM


As far as Ed Ring is concerned, Newfoundlanders everywhere might end up thanking Globe and Mail writer Margaret Wente for slamming their province.
â Å“We owe a debt of gratitude to Mrs. Wente â ” I've never seen the Newfoundland spirit stronger,â ? said the 54-year-old retired brigadier-general and St. John's native, who recently retired from the Canadian Forces after three decades of service.

â Å“Any Newfoundlander that might have been on the borderline or not involved, she has boiled their blood. It's like Admiral Yamamoto said when they were on their way back from attacking Pearl Harbour: 'I fear all we've done is awakened a sleeping giant.' Newfoundlanders now are up in arms, with good bloody reason.

â Å“I'm flying the 'pink, white and green' at my house.â ?

In her column last week, Wente described Newfoundland and Labrador as â Å“probably the most vast and scenic welfare ghetto in the worldâ ? and said Premier Danny Williams is trying to â Å“pick the pocketsâ ? of other Canadians with his insistence that the province be allowed to keep 100 per cent of its offshore energy revenue.

Williams ordered the Canadian flag removed from provincial buildings Dec. 23 after he stormed out of meetings in Winnipeg with federal Finance Department officials.

Ring disagrees that Williams' hardline tactic may have jinxed the province's chances of getting a better offshore deal.

â Å“The premier, in dealing with the federal government and the prime minister, only has a certain number of tools in his toolbox that he can use,â ? Ring said.

â Å“In order for him to get attention at that level, something has to be done for people to raise their eyebrows.

â Å“Having served 34 years in the military, in no way do I see this gesture as being disrespectful to veterans. It's an opportunity to say, 'Look, we've been pushed well and long enough. Just treat us fair, that's all we want. We've given our share.' â ?

He says politicians like John Efford, who have been saying that removing the flag is offensive to war veterans, haven't earned the right to speak out on behalf of vets.

â Å“They just don't know and it's annoying to hear it,â ? said Ring, who now works as a provincial civil servant and makes his home with his wife Ann in Manuels, C.B.S. His son, also in the military, recently returned from a tour in Bosnia.

â Å“When you look at the number of people serving in the armed forces per capita, the Atlantic region provides 2-1 in relation to the rest of the country, and if you were to remove the Newfoundlanders from the units that have been or are currently in operational duties, you might as well fold up the units and send them home.â ?

Ring says flying the tri-colour â Å“reminds me of the spirit of the fighting Newfoundlander.

â Å“But I'd hate to see this country disintegrate in any way shape or form â ” if Newfoundland were to do something along those lines it would only be the beginning â ” but what I want more than that is for this province to be treated as an equal partner. I don't know if it'll ever be the way it was, but in many ways that's a good thing â ” we're standing up to be counted and we're not asking for the world.â ?

 

[227Tech]

Nice find,

You served under Brig-Gen. Ring?

I've had the privledge of meeting him a few times when I served with son, he was a Col. then tho.

 

[mo-litia]

By the way Ontario used to be Upper Canada.   Quebec was Lower Canada.   Ontario is Upstream and Quebec is Downstream.
Cheers.

Ooops . . . don't tell anyone in my Pre-Confederation Canadian history class, ok?   ;D

I corrected my post, thanks.

 

[Kirkhill]

You can buy me a "Trad" at some point in the distant future.

Cheers and best of luck.

 

[Infanteer]

Hey Ex-Infanteer,

Just noticed a good story in the telegram.  If you ever choose to live up to your threat to show up in Newfoundland with torch in hand (a la General Sherman in Atlanta), you'd best hope you don't run into this _real_ General (Ex-CO of 3CDO, Ex-22SAS, Dutch HALO Jumper, +more high speed training than your 23 year old ex-corporal head could imagine).  He is one of the finest officers I ever had the pleasure to serve under and as a proud Canadian and prouder Newfoundlander,  I'm happy to see his take on the matter in print.

Since you still want to play the analogy game, Robert E Lee never did the Confederacy any good....

As well, despite saying I was done here, I'm not going to ignore the ad hominem attacks.  I really enjoy have you've attempted to hold my profile up to some sort of mockery - nice work.

It's good to see the General was keen to separate the political issue from talks of destroying the fabric of Canada:

â Å“But I'd hate to see this country disintegrate in any way shape or form â ” if Newfoundland were to do something along those lines it would only be the beginning â ” but what I want more than that is for this province to be treated as an equal partner."

Political friction is common with a federal system - I'm sure every Province has a list just as long as Newfoundland's.  I've repeatedly stated that the Premier is more then justified to take an issue with a Federal Government that's record of delivering responsible government for most Canadians (except those in their back-pocket) is full of holes.  I've stated my view on the utility of the idea of Canada and opposed your disregard for the Country.  You've put your Newfoundland-centric loyalties out in the open, so good on you; I'm sure if you don't get your way, the Fronte de Liberation du Newfoundland can get a membership drive going....

Cheers,
Ex-Infanteer

 

[ex_coelis]

Since you still want to play the analogy game, Robert E Lee never did the Confederacy any good....

First you compare Newfoundlanders wanting their agreed upon 50% of oil royalties to the southern Confederates and their war for slavery.   Then you have the audacity to mention that you'd be Sherman, and lay waste to the place (Newfoundland).   Nice.   Smart and inoffensive.
(was I not supposed to get the reference?)

As well, despite saying I was done here, I'm not going to ignore the ad hominem attacks.  I really enjoy have you've attempted to hold my profile up to some sort of mockery - nice work.

  What   attack?   Did I misrepresent something?    Didn't mean to be offensive to Gen. Sherman's feelings?   (you can take the last bit as a dig, if you're looking for one)

It's good to see the General was keen to separate the political issue from talks of destroying the fabric of Canada:

â Å“But I'd hate to see this country disintegrate in any way shape or form â ” if Newfoundland were to do something along those lines it would only be the beginning â ” but what I want more than that is for this province to be treated as an equal partner."

As I said, I completely agree with his quote.   I said that if the Liberal Govt continues to govern for the centre, at the expense of the sides, it will lead to a weakening of the Canadian fabric.   Williams taking down the flag awakened people like yourself as to what is going on with oil royalties, and how many people in NF feel about it.   The provincial government of Newfoundland will not weaken the Canadian state, though the Feds policies may.

Political friction is common with a federal system - I'm sure every Province has a list just as long as Newfoundland's.  I've repeatedly stated that the Premier is more then justified to take an issue with a Federal Government that's record of delivering responsible government for most Canadians (except those in their back-pocket) is full of holes.  I've stated my view on the utility of the idea of Canada and opposed your disregard for the Country.  You've put your Newfoundland-centric loyalties out in the open, so good on you; I'm sure if you don't get your way, the Fronte de Liberation du Newfoundland can get a membership drive going....

I'm not advocating independence for Newfoundland, I advocate the federal government sticking to their promises.   The federal liberals are currently doing more to damage unity than the proud Canadian Danny Williams ever could.    Yes, I am Newfoundland-centric, why should I not be?   Should I wait for someone else to stick up for the place, maybe you?   Now I'm an FLQ style terrorist? (do you get paid by the offensive bullsh*t comment?). It means I want the best for Newfoundland, and that is what this thread is about.

Decentralist?   Absolutely.

Did I mock your profile?   I thought I just re-stated it?  

 

[Kirkhill]

Just a thought, I think maybe we could all step back a pace on this one. 

There's an awful lot of comments being made here by sensible people in the heat of the moment.  Me Guilty.  My Bad. (Well you can make your own mind up about sensible).

But, I know the opinions on this are strongly held and the feelings prompt strong comments.

I know Infanteer. I consider him a friend.  I like to think he might feel likewise.  I understand his position on the flag at the same time as agreeing with Danny William's need to take a 2x4 to the Donkey in 24 Sussex.  I don't think his comments about the Confederacy were particularly helpful but I also don't think it helps any here to start slagging profiles. He has reason to be proud of his service as much as any other here.

2 cents.

Sorry for the intervention but ....... "Can't we all just get along?????"

Cheers, 

 

[ex_coelis]

But, I know the opinions on this are strongly held and the feelings prompt strong comments.

He has reason to be proud of his service as much as any other here.

Agreed.

Sorry for the intervention but ....... "Can't we all just get along?????"

Cheers,  

Yes.   Moving on.   Infanteer should recind his Sherman/Georgia/Newfoundland remark though.   Truely offensive.

 

[Infanteer]

Whew, a few hours at work lets one clear the mind.

First things first, my only reason for mentioning Robert E Lee was in response to you post about the General in the article kicking my ass and justifying your cause.   I was trying to point out that great Generals (which both appear to be) don't necessarily justify the cause.

Second, I will recind the Sherman statement.   True to form, in the heat of the argument I probably reached out a little too far with my analogies.   My only intent was, in the face of talk about being better off without Canada, to show that my convictions lead me to support measures to the extent of a repeat of Trudeau and the War Measures Act should it become necessary (in the face of further breakdown in relations) to preserve National Unity.   However, the analogy of Sherman was a poor one, fraught with the baggage of Total War, which is clearly not the situation here.   And for that I apologize.

It's funny, we've got quite a cat-fight going on here and I think that everybody can agree on the common problem.   We should re-focus our energy on that.

Ex-Coelis (II), welcome to Army.ca.   You got a bit of a rocky reception here, but I'm willing to bet with your experience that you have much to offer here.   Hope you stick around.

Cheers,
Infanteer

 

[Kirkhill]

erroneous post.

meant to hit PM

'pologies.  Too late at night.

 

[ex_coelis]

Whew, a few hours at work lets one clear the mind.

First things first, my only reason for mentioning Robert E Lee was in response to you post about the General in the article kicking my *** and justifying your cause.  I was trying to point out that great Generals (which both appear to be) don't necessarily justify the cause.

Second, I will recind the Sherman statement.  True to form, in the heat of the argument I probably reached out a little too far with my analogies.  My only intent was, in the face of talk about being better off without Canada, to show that my convictions lead me to support measures to the extent of a repeat of Trudeau and the War Measures Act should it become necessary (in the face of further breakdown in relations) to preserve National Unity.  However, the analogy of Sherman was a poor one, fraught with the baggage of Total War, which is clearly not the situation here.  And for that I apologize.

It's funny, we've got quite a cat-fight going on here and I think that everybody can agree on the common problem.  We should re-focus our energy on that.

Ex-Coelis (II), welcome to Army.ca.  You got a bit of a rocky reception here, but I'm willing to bet with your experience that you have much to offer here.  Hope you stick around.

Cheers,
Infanteer

I've never been in a cat-fight.

Thanks for the welcome.

Your knowledge of US Civil War history seems stronger than your knowledge of recent Canadian history.  Leaving NF out of this entirely, the War Measures Act was imposed by Trudeau in Quebec in response to FLQ bombings/kidnappings/murder, not due to a PQ successionist referendum.  This is why when they had their last referendum in 95 (minus the terrorist threat), I was on ex in Gagetown and not booting down doors in Trois Rivieres. 

No one but yourself brought up the spectre of violence in relation to the matter at hand, and it is your raising it that I find shameful.  I'll mention your profile again to say that as someone who served on OP Palladium, you really should know better.  My experience in the FMY left me extremely repulsed by violent nationalism (maybe the place was cleaned up a bit by the time you got there?).  If Quebec ever voted to seperate, my response would be peaceful discourse tinged with an overwhelming  sense of regret, not a desire to burn the place down or force their alligance at the tip of my bayonet, your mileage may vary.

That's it for me.  I'm done with this until Martin responds to Williams letters. 

 

[227Tech]

The PM has replied to Premier Willliams letters.


Here's a sample from this link

http://stjohns.cbc.ca/regionalnews/caches/nf-martin-williams-20050111.html

"I have in the most recent discussions, the most recent offer, fulfilled that commitment," Martin says.

"And I remain faithful to that commitment."

However, while Martin says the offer made in Winnipeg just before Christmas meets his election commitment, he acknowledges there are still problems, at least from the province's perspective.

Martin says Williams' latest concerns â “ such as what happens when the province no longer receives equalization payments â “ were not discussed last June when he promised a new deal, but that he is willing to talk about that now.

"I am prepared to meet with Premier Williams to deal with the other issues that he has raised, issues that were not part of that discussion, but which I am quite open to discussing," Martin says.

Martin has given several indications in recent days he wants to reach a new deal on offshore revenues, but has yet to respond to a Jan. 3 letter by Williams asking for direct intervention on the issue.

Everything now seems to have turned into a waiting game again.  Intrested to find out what the game plan is if the Premier isnt satisified with the next offer, any ideas?

 

[Bograt]

Who does it favour to wait. My bet it favour Williams. The premier has said that if the PM doesn't live up to his commitment, Williams will actively campaign against the PM across the country. The liberals will probably loose 3 seats in NL.

Williams need to put on paper what is "acceptable" and present it as a take it leave it option- then have Harper, Layton sign it- and perhaps the entire NL caucus. 

I am biased. It appears to me that the PM has been scrambling since his inauguration- Sponsorship, Stripper Gate, Parish, DART, and the Flag Flop. Not a good year for Paulie.

Rex Murphy is speaking on Hear and Now tonight- speaking about Wente's article. Apparently it will "surprise" us.

 

[Bograt]

Nice interview with Danny.

http://stjohns.cbc.ca/regionalnews/caches/nf-martin-williams-20050111.html

 

[Infanteer]

I've never been in a cat-fight.

17 pages of arguing on this board constitutes one.  

Your knowledge of US Civil War history seems stronger than your knowledge of recent Canadian history.   Leaving NF out of this entirely, the War Measures Act was imposed by Trudeau in Quebec in response to FLQ bombings/kidnappings/murder, not due to a PQ successionist referendum.   This is why when they had their last referendum in 95 (minus the terrorist threat), I was on ex in Gagetown and not booting down doors in Trois Rivieres.

Which is why I included the caveat "in the face of further breakdown in relations".  Again, the Sherman analogy was not a very good one and in poor taste, and I have apologized for it.

If Quebec ever voted to separate, my response would be peaceful discourse tinged with an overwhelming   sense of regret, not a desire to burn the place down or force their alligance at the tip of my bayonet, your mileage may vary.

I personally don't feel that, as separate branches of a federal system of governance, individual provinces have any right to leave Canada - just as no region, city or individual person can arbitrarily decide they wish to leave the Dominion.  Such a profound decision, affecting ALL Canadians, should be left for all of Canada to decide.

However, that (along with others) is my personal viewpoint and I'm sure the moral and legal aspects of it could be debated at length on another thread.

On a more constructive (and on-topic) note, do any Newfoundlanders see this changing in the next election:

Hon. Gerry Humber Byrne: St. Barbe-Baie Verte - Liberal Party

Norman Doyle: St. John's East - Conservative Party

Hon. John R. Efford: Avalon -  Liberal Party

Loyola Hearn: St. John's South-Mount Pear - Conservative Party

Bill Matthews: Random-Burin-St. George's - Liberal Party

Scott Simms: Bonavista-Gander-Grand Falls-Windsor - Liberal Party

 

[Bograt]

Hon. Gerry Humber Byrne: St. Barbe-Baie Verte - Wins  Never been a PC district. Lots of handouts.

Norman Doyle: St. John's East - Wins  Urban NL is Tory

Hon. John R. Efford: Avalon -  Tossed

Loyola Hearn: St. John's South-Mount Pear - Wins

Bill Matthews: Random-Burin-St. George's - Doesn't run, PC win Depends on candidate.

Scott Simms: Bonavista-Gander-Grand Falls-Windsor - Tossed He did stand up against the PM, but it was a close election for him. A higher profile tory will win here.

 

[Infanteer]

If the resentment against Federal treatment in Newfoundland is as deep as this thread seems to indicate, then how would the Liberals take four out of six seats?  Was it nepotism (as you mentioned, enough "handouts") or was it fear of a Conservative Party agenda which didn't really think much of the Atlantic provinces at all (a sentiment expressed by some members here from the Maritimes).

 

[Wizard of OZ]

If the resentment against Federal treatment in Newfoundland is as deep as this thread seems to indicate, then how would the Liberals take four out of six seats?   Was it nepotism (as you mentioned, enough "handouts") or was it fear of a Conservative Party agenda which didn't really think much of the Atlantic provinces at all (a sentiment expressed by some members here from the Maritimes).

It has not just been the Liberals who have supportted the Handouts in Newfoundland.  The Conservatives have been just as guilty.  This issue may cause the liberals to lose some seats in Newfoundland but Harper has been hiding, for someone who wants to lead this country this would have been an excellent opoutunity to show that leadership.  And where is he........ ah right no where to be seen. 

I think the seats lost in Newfoundland would be made up in Quebec and Ont would still vote red.  hate to say but until the Conservatives can break into the East we will be in trouble.

According to the news at lunch here the problem was not that Newfoundland was not getting the 100 percent of the off shore profits but they wanted the equalization payments to continue at the same level they were.

That is not fair in anybodys book.