Critique this workout please

[Jarnhamar]

For all the PT types out there can you take a look at my wok out and give me some advice on areas to improve?
It's basically a 9 day work out schedule mixed and matched with stuff that I thought sounded good.

DAY 1
Chest, triceps & abs
Swim 200 meters for time and tread water for 5 minutes

DAY 2
10KM run at a light pace (working up to 16km then hopefully 22)

DAY 3
Rest day

DAY 4
Back, Biceps and abs
200 meters swim for time, tread water for 5 minutes

DAY 5
Interval running (5-8 km. Sprint, light job, sprint, light job etc..)

DAY 6
Rest day

DAY 7
Shoulders and (surprise) Abs
Swim 200 meters for time and tread water for 5 minutes

DAY 8
5 KM run
(1 KM sprint, 15 push ups sit ups squats leg raises, 1km sprint 15 push ups sit ups etc.. repeat 5 times)

DAY 9
Rest day

The swimming length/tread water time increasing each week (A friend suggested the swimming, I like it as an excuse to swim)


Is spreading out the weight work outs over 9 days giving my muscles too long to recover? Should I look at shortening the time between say chest work outs?

I'd like to mix in rucksack marches once maybe twice a week (or 9 day schedule).  Where can I add my ruck marches in? Should I take out one of the running days?  I also do Aikido 3 times a week (for an hour and a half each class) so that counts a little towards cardio.

Goals would be
raising my max bench press from 215 to 250
drastically improve cardio (Wanna do 5km in 22:30) and
improve rucksack marching.
More interested in strength and size, no big interest in definition as far as the weights go.

 

[Lil_T]

Yes, I think you're taking too long for recovery on your weights.  Personally, I alternate my weight workouts and my cardio

I take my weekends off for recovery time and this is what my routine looks like.

M-W-F 
Running (working on increasing my pace right now) / other cardio (stairs/ elliptical)
Upper body/ core = biceps, triceps, gravitron, bench press, seated row, plank/side plank, roman chair, back extensions and of course, push ups.

T-Th
Speedwalking
Lower Body/ Core = squats, lunges, leg curls, extensions, leg press, hip adductor and abductor

I also work on my flexibility because I don't want to get injured on all those runs/ marches/ confidence course etc.

haven't started back swimming yet.  have to get on that as it's going to be a big stumbling block.

You can work your core everyday.  Today I goofed and did upper body again so I'll have to do W-Th lower body to get back on the routine. 

Once I dig out the rucksack I'm going to start marching too.  I just can't remember if it's in the cabinet or the shed :-\

 

[MJP]

I personally find working out specific areas get very routine very fast.  I use to have a very similar workout to yours but found it boring and hard to maintain my enthusiasm for doing it.  I've dabbled around over the last year or so and I found that Cross fit with a good cardio program was much much better for me.  I gained more strength in the last while than I ever did just lifting weights alone.  I certainly have beaten my max in pretty much every exercise now compared to when I only ran and lifted weights.

Crossfit certainly isn't the be all and end all, but it is certainly a tool in the box to consider to shake things up.  The plus is the women that go to Xfit always seem to be good to go

 

[Chubbard]

Add a leg day for sure. I gained a bunch of muscle when I started actually doing squats and deadlifts. Just not on the same day. I did deadlifts on my back day, and squats on my leg days (which were also my shoulder days). I also count any day between lifting days as a rest day, even if I run, and put my rest day on a weekend, so I can keep all my workouts on the same day.

 

[MJP]

Ack I second a legs day....can't believe I missed it

 

[Jarnhamar]

Would the swimming running and marches take the place of a leg work out?

Crossfit is something to consider for sure, does it include cardio?

 

[MJP]

No you might use your leg muscles doing them but nothing builds up leg strenght like deadlifts, squats etc etc.  Even at lower wieghts and higher reps you'll be amazed at how fast you gain strenght compared to your upper body.

Crossfit workouts in themselves have a inherent cardio component in them, although most people I know that CF also run on top of their workouts.  Just don't drink the CF koolaid to much

 

[The_Falcon]

Would the swimming running and marches take the place of a leg work out?

Crossfit is something to consider for sure, does it include cardio?

Yes CrossFit has cardio.  Its not always something obvious like running/rowing/biking, but any workout that says do X for time/as many round as possible in X time (and thats the about 80% of them), will definately get your heart racing, and leave you in a collapsed heap of sweat and quivering muscle  (if you do them properly that is, ie with max effort).

Also, the whole idea that you need to give each muscle group a rest day is pretty dated.  Last time I checked most of the people on these boards are either soldiers (or sailors/airmen as the case may be) or aspiring to be one, and when you out actually "soldiering" (either on Ex/Op) you are going to have to continue performing at a high work capacity, even when every muscle  is tired/sore/aching, might as well get used to the idea in your training. 

Edit to add 2 things
1) There is nothing wrong with doing deadlifts and squats in the same workout, many power lifting programs do so, just put in a press/row exercise (bench, overhead press, bbell row) in between. 

2) There are many "flavours" of CrossFit.  You don't need to follow the main site WODs, there are plenty of affiliates out there, with quite a few specializing in certain areas.  CrossFit Endurance (www.crossfitendurance.com), specializes in endurance running/biking/rowing, Catalyst Athletics/Performance Menu (www.cathletics.com www.performancemenu.com) has a more powerlifting/olympic lifting bent to it.  Navyseals.com (http://www.navyseals.com/crossfit-workout-day) has some truly "unique" CrossFit workouts inspired by and for active/aspiring Frogmen.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Personally, I am a fan of, and use, a 2 or 3 day split "push/pull' routine, and mostly the 3 day split.

Day 1:  Chest/Back

Day 2:  Bicep/tricep

Day 3: Legs/shoulders

Repeat

Day 7:  full rest day

I hate doing the same exercises all the time, so I don't have a set of specific exercises...better to mix it up.  Cardio is the same...I don't program it in, keep it flexible and do what I feel like doing.

Other than that, I mix it up with heavy weight/low rep low weight/higher reps cycles.

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Yes CrossFit has cardio.  Its not always something obvious like running/rowing/biking, but any workout that says do X for time/as many round as possible in X time (and thats the about 80% of them), will definately get your heart racing, and leave you in a collapsed heap of sweat and quivering muscle  (if you do them properly that is, ie with max effort).

Also, the whole idea that you need to give each muscle group a rest day is pretty dated.  Last time I checked most of the people on these boards are either soldiers (or sailors/airmen as the case may be) or aspiring to be one, and when you out actually "soldiering" (either on Ex/Op) you are going to have to continue performing at a high work capacity, even when every muscle  is tired/sore/aching, might as well get used to the idea in your training. 

Edit to add 2 things
1) There is nothing wrong with doing deadlifts and squats in the same workout, many power lifting programs do so, just put in a press/row exercise (bench, overhead press, bbell row) in between. 

I would advise some caution here - be careful in setting a dangerous precedence that could lead very quickly to severe overtraining with resultant lack or diminished results, not to mention strain injuries and other illnesses. Bottom line - the body adapts to a specific demand. Just remember the rule of diminishing returns. More is not always better, not matter what society says. Your genetics will only take you so far, if training rationally and scientifically. Just because soldiers may be in situations in the field where they are exerting themselves at 110 per cent, doesn't mean one trains in that fashion on a daily basis. Muscle growth and other physiological responses to exercise are not realised during the workout - these happen during rest and sleep (factoring in other stressors and nutrition). Too many times do I see or hear about people who are obsessed with being in the gym for hours on end, sometimes twice a day, day after day, thinking this hard work will lead to good results. How delusional and naive!! Whatever your routine (high-intensity or high-volume) please KEEP A RECORD OF YOUR PROGRESS. If your workouts are not progressing (reps and/or load) every single workout, your muscles have not had enough time to adapt and overcome (I have to add the caveat that this overcompensation will only happen if the body's stress response is activated with sufficient intensity). Good exercise should NEVER be easy or really "fun".
I do agree with the comments on squats, leg-presses and deadlifts. Exercises that activate large muscle groups are known to boost testosterone and growth hormone production writ large, thus aiding in other development. However, leave the deadlift to the end, as it stresses and weakens the lower back. Not a good thing when moving on to other exercises.

Split routines - hmmm, again, everyone is genetically different, so if this works for you and your notes show progress, excellent. Others, such as myself, find a full-body routine, starting with the heavy leg stuff, better and more logical. In and out of the gym fast and fully exercised. For everyone, avoid cookie-cutter routines (ie muscle mags). What works for one may not work for another. Takes some trial and error, but follow sound principles from the start. I wish I had know what I know now when I was younger. Too much wasted effort.

Good resources on principles and prescribed exercise - "The New High Intensity Training" by Ellington Darden, all of Arthur Jone's work (inventor of Nautilus), and Brian D. Johnston's Rational Strength Training.

 

[The_Falcon]

I would advise some caution here - be careful in setting a dangerous precedence that could lead very quickly to severe overtraining with resultant lack or diminished results, not to mention strain injuries and other illnesses. Bottom line - the body adapts to a specific demand. Just remember the rule of diminishing returns. More is not always better, not matter what society says. Your genetics will only take you so far, if training rationally and scientifically. Just because soldiers may be in situations in the field where they are exerting themselves at 110 per cent, doesn't mean one trains in that fashion on a daily basis. Muscle growth and other physiological responses to exercise are not realised during the workout - these happen during rest and sleep (factoring in other stressors and nutrition). Too many times do I see or hear about people who are obsessed with being in the gym for hours on end, sometimes twice a day, day after day, thinking this hard work will lead to good results. How delusional and naive!! Whatever your routine (high-intensity or high-volume) please KEEP A RECORD OF YOUR PROGRESS. If your workouts are not progressing (reps and/or load) every single workout, your muscles have not had enough time to adapt and overcome (I have to add the caveat that this overcompensation will only happen if the body's stress response is activated with sufficient intensity). Good exercise should NEVER be easy or really "fun".
I do agree with the comments on squats, leg-presses and deadlifts. Exercises that activate large muscle groups are known to boost testosterone and growth hormone production writ large, thus aiding in other development. However, leave the deadlift to the end, as it stresses and weakens the lower back. Not a good thing when moving on to other exercises.

Split routines - hmmm, again, everyone is genetically different, so if this works for you and your notes show progress, excellent. Others, such as myself, find a full-body routine, starting with the heavy leg stuff, better and more logical. In and out of the gym fast and fully exercised. For everyone, avoid cookie-cutter routines (ie muscle mags). What works for one may not work for another. Takes some trial and error, but follow sound principles from the start. I wish I had know what I know now when I was younger. Too much wasted effort.

Good resources on principles and prescribed exercise - "The New High Intensity Training" by Ellington Darden, all of Arthur Jone's work (inventor of Nautilus), and Brian D. Johnston's Rational Strength Training.

I never said "don't" rest, I said working the same body parts  2-3 days in row isn't going to kill you.  The standard CF protocol is 3 on 1 off (I do a 5 on 2 off), and the work outs are designed to "balance" you.  IE, the people who are posting the WODs make an effort to, try and balance the workouts, so your not hammering the same thing over and over, but it doesn't always happen.  Everything you said, is posted in CF's FAQ's and Getting Started sections, about rest, recording etc. I am just not going to post all that cause well, people can do their own research.

This video http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitAgainFaster_VBL1SherwoodBodyParts.wmv is basically what I am talking about

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Understood, however, in this case "what doesn't kill you" doesn't necessarily make you stronger as well. CF protocol is cookie-cutter, and again may work for some, not for others (based on recovery ability, the level of intensity etc etc). Most people do not even understand the basic principles before starting the CF fitness program, and fail to train properly (proper exercise AND rest AND nutrition). There is no silver bullet or magic pill to hard, intense work - and here we agree - no pain no gain but done smartly.
How is a muscle group ever going to be allowed to recover if it is stressed back to back to back with no rest? Stress hormones (cortisol primarily) WILL rear its ugly head right quick and will block any possible gains. Only steroids (properly administered mind you) will counteract this. And one can only hope that most do not fall on powder/pill crutches too much.

OK watched the video - what he is talking about is full-body routines, not split routines - which I agree with (having done both over periods of time). Great, however, in the same breath he talks about trying to trigger a growth response the very next day for the very same muscle group - why, when it is done already? How about letting the body recover and build first. Look at nature (which we belong to like it or not) - male lions are bigger, stronger than female lions - why? More male hormones, yes, but less frequent but very intense activity (mating and fighting) whereas lionesses are constantly on the move hunting. Gorillas, same thing, the list goes on.

I do agree 100% with keeping things mixed to maintain muscle confusion as well as interest.

 

[Infanteer]

Not a bad approach, bank it and use that 9 day routine every so often to mix it up.  I bet if you do it 3-4 times in a row you'll get really bored with it and lose interest (and gains).

If you can get on the DIN, check out the Army Electronic Library for B-GL-382-003/PT-Z01.

Yes folks, Crossfit is now Army Doctrine.... :blotto:

 

[The_Falcon]

Understood, however, in this case "what doesn't kill you" doesn't necessarily make you stronger as well.

Going  disagree with you here, and I am going to guess so would the folks who run the PT for BUDS, our own PSP staff at the Inf School (who produced a study albiet a small one that showed CF gave candidates better results than the army fitness pam), the PSP at Dwyer Hill, many of the people at CSOR, Jacksonville PD, I think you get the point.

CF protocol is cookie-cutter,

Are you kidding me? There is nothing cookie cutter about it, unless you cherry pick your workouts

and again may work for some, not for others (based on recovery ability, the level of intensity etc etc).

The only reason why it wouldn't work for someone is if they are doing the WOD's inconsistently, their diet sucks, and they aren't even making a half-assed attempt to try and do the WOD's with the proper intensity.  If the program didn't work as well as it did, all those org I listed above (and the others I haven't) wouldn't be doing it.

Most people do not even understand the basic principles before starting the CF fitness program, and fail to train properly (proper exercise AND rest AND nutrition).

And thats not CF's fault, they provide tons of (free) info on thier site on how to perform the WOD's, how beginers should start off, how to scale to ability, what to eat, videos/articles on proper form for all the excercises they utilize etc.  The info is there, and if people need help interpreting it, they have a message board as well, where they can get advice, and ask questions.  They provide lots of tools and help, if people don't bother using them, they have only themselves to blame.

There is no silver bullet or magic pill to hard, intense work - and here we agree - no pain no gain but done smartly.

I concur

How is a muscle group ever going to be allowed to recover if it is stressed back to back to back with no rest?

I will say it again, there will be times when you MAY work the same muscle group 2 days or sometimes 3 days in a row (and if you are following the mainsite that would be the max since the 4th day is a rest day).  It doesn't happen all the time though. 

As well they state right in there getting started/FAQs, if you need rest, then take it. They tell you flat out, don't over do it, ESPECIALLY if your new to it. If you need to scale something down, because of X reason (inability, injury, not fit enough yet), then do so.  If people are not heeding this, again that is their OWN damn fault.

OK watched the video - what he is talking about is full-body routines, not split routines - which I agree with (having done both over periods of time). Great, however, in the same breath he talks about trying to trigger a growth response the very next day for the very same muscle group - why, when it is done already?

Umm you sure you watched the video, cause Pat never once mentions triggering a growth response in a muscle.

How about letting the body recover and build first.

See above about rest, or better yet look at the pictures of CrossFitters who have been at it awhile, most notably the women, as well as the men who didn't already come from a bodybuilding/powerlifting/oly lifting background (since they were already big before they started).

Look at nature (which we belong to like it or not) - male lions are bigger, stronger than female lions - why? More male hormones, yes, but less frequent but very intense activity (mating and fighting) whereas lionesses are constantly on the move hunting. Gorillas, same thing, the list goes on.

 

Well I confused why you even mentioned this, since I can't figure out what it has to do with the topic at hand. Sexual dimorphism as it relates to size, is not really that prevalent among mammals to a very large degree.  Size difference are minimal at best (I worked at a zoo, I have seen the animals you mentioned and others VERY up close and personal, trust me when I say there isn't much of size difference).  IF there is a difference in size it's because as you mentioned one move around alot, the other not so much. 

But I really don't know why you mentioned this in the first place.

 

[The_Falcon]

Not a bad approach, bank it and use that 9 day routine every so often to mix it up.  I bet if you do it 3-4 times in a row you'll get really bored with it and lose interest (and gains).

If you can get on the DIN, check out the Army Electronic Library for B-GL-382-003/PT-Z01.

Yes folks, Crossfit is now Army Doctrine.... :blotto:

Um that came out awhile ago, way to be on top of things there  >  You can also find it on the regular internet, by googling Combat Fitness Program.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Thanks for all the feed back.  I'm going to look at adding in squats, dead lifts and leg press.

Overseas PSP gave me a total body work out (Arms shouders legs abs etc..) It seemed to touch n everything a little ever day. It seemed like a good method to start out but it feels that after a while switching to muscle groups (once I had a good base) was the way to go.  Really need to up the Cardio.  I'm not sure why but I've been doing the 9 day work out for 4 months or so and I never really get bored with it. Confusing my muscles is a new concept though but sounds logical.

Can anyone comment on the cardio portion of my workout?

 

[Infanteer]

Just over a year - but this was the first time I've found it in official PAM form.

It's a good program.  The thing I like about Crossfit is I can basically make it up as I go.  None of this elaborate planning of what weights I want to throw around the gym.  If I'm feeling really unoriginal, I can surf the numerous affiliate sites and see what they're doing.  Over six months now and I haven't done the same workout twice (except for some of the benchmarks.... :-X)  As you said, you don't have to worry about "Cardio" and what not - do it right and you'll get smoked.  Short of going for a sprint exercise, some of the hardest "Cardio" I've done was 75 Thrusters for time.  Break it up with some "Combat PT" with boots-and-utes (as the Marine call it) on, the odd distance run and/or swim, and you're golden.

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Umm you sure you watched the video, cause Pat never once mentions triggering a growth response in a muscle.

True, he doesn't use these words, but isn't the point of doing any exercise to cause the body to respond to the imposed demand/stress. Your points about CrossFit, who does it and what success it has had are all valid, and I will not argue your points there. I agree completely that any exercise program that trains pers as close to the real-life activity/sport as possible, the better (again, specific adaptation to imposed demand). Most people, however, do not understand stress physiology nor heed basic principles. CrossFit and others are very flexible, and as Infanteer mentioned, can ensure no workout is ever the same, but there is a huge risk of people going overboard very quickly and overtraining setting in. If reps, sets, times are improving every time, then more power to you and things are working out fine. Once a plateu sets in (mix of either overtraining or muscle adaptation), and this will only be caught reviewing one's log, rest or mixing things up are naturally required. Genetically speaking, this could happen sooner for some, later for others.
Beating a dead horse here, but just wanting people to think about their unique circumstances and tailoring the workouts with a critical eye to all the factors involved in body adaptation to stress (in it various forms)
I fully support the CrossFit mindset and I will likely mix things up myself with "WODs".
 

Well I confused why you even mentioned this, since I can't figure out what it has to do with the topic at hand. Sexual dimorphism as it relates to size, is not really that prevalent among mammals to a very large degree.  Size difference are minimal at best (I worked at a zoo, I have seen the animals you mentioned and others VERY up close and personal, trust me when I say there isn't much of size difference).  IF there is a difference in size it's because as you mentioned one move around alot, the other not so much. 

But I really don't know why you mentioned this in the first place.

Simply to illustrate the level of activity, rest and adaptation (intensity of effort vs frequency vs volume), as it applies to other living creatures - muscle is muscle no matter how you fry it. You have to admit that a zoo setting is vastly different (confined, controlled and non-threatening environment) to free-range.

 

[The_Falcon]

True, he doesn't use these words, but isn't the point of doing any exercise to cause the body to respond to the imposed demand/stress.

True, the way you worded it though, I assumed you were referring to muscular hypertrophy, which isn't really what most people do CrossFit more.  Not to say it doesn't happen in some individuals, but the training isn't geared to achieving that end.

Your points about CrossFit, who does it and what success it has had are all valid, and I will not argue your points there. I agree completely that any exercise program that trains pers as close to the real-life activity/sport as possible, the better (again, specific adaptation to imposed demand).

Agree sorta.  Gotta remember that in when talking about real world/combat training, that their is nothing really specific about either, which is why CrossFit bills its self as a GPP program (General Physical Prepardness), and the really that the SAID principle involved would more accurately be described as a "General Adaptations to Variable Demands".

Most people, however, do not understand stress physiology nor heed basic principles. CrossFit and others are very flexible, and as Infanteer mentioned, can ensure no workout is ever the same, but there is a huge risk of people going overboard very quickly and overtraining setting in.

Agreed, but this can happen with any fitness program out there, regardless of who created it, or what its parameters are.  IMHO though CrossFit does make great attempts to put as much info out there to ensure this does not happen, like providing tips/suggestions, to scale a workout to your own abilities.  Whereas many (if not all) "Fitness" magazines will publish a new "get a bigger chest", "get ripped abs", "increase the size of your arms" program every month, with no suggestions on what weights to use, how a begginer should start out, and they "may" have a little sentence about ensuring adequate rest.  The hardcore bodybuilding mags are even worse since they put out workouts designed/used by high level bodybuilders, who tend to have a workout capacity way beyond what they're average reader does.  Sorry about the rant, but it just annoys the hell out of me, that people continually harp about the "dangers" of doing CrossFit WOD's as prescribed (meaning exactly as written), as a beginner, yet not a peep, that the workouts in the all those magazines and books, are just as dangerous for beginner/deconditioned person.

If reps, sets, times are improving every time, then more power to you and things are working out fine. Once a plateu sets in (mix of either overtraining or muscle adaptation), and this will only be caught reviewing one's log, rest or mixing things up are naturally required. Genetically speaking, this could happen sooner for some, later for others.

Agreed.

Beating a dead horse here, but just wanting people to think about their unique circumstances and tailoring the workouts with a critical eye to all the factors involved in body adaptation to stress (in it various forms)
I fully support the CrossFit mindset and I will likely mix things up myself with "WODs".

Agreed and Excellent another person on the road to conversion Muahahahah  >

 
Simply to illustrate the level of activity, rest and adaptation (intensity of effort vs frequency vs volume), as it applies to other living creatures - muscle is muscle no matter how you fry it. You have to admit that a zoo setting is vastly different (confined, controlled and non-threatening environment) to free-range.

Ah ok, the confusion lay in how you involved the sexs, in the previous context.  Females are just as a likely to build muscle and gain mass if they actually put some effort into their workouts (as opposed to doing a pilates or Zumba class).  Will they gain the same amounts as males (doing equal work), generally not. 

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Don't get too excited yet -  I will still stick to HIT principles (looking at the CF AFP fitness self-test levels, I can reach level 4 on pretty much all exercises with only HIT (full body, one set to momentary muscular failure, twice a week) as my regime). Being a true hard-gainer (the perpetually skinny type who can eat anything without gaining a pound), I would personally have to be carefull how far I go with some of the CrossFit routines. Bottom line, considering myself and advanced trainer, my recovery ability can not keep up with the strength gains. The stronger one gets (regardless of the system/regime), the heavier/more intense one can train, and the greater the inroads into one's system.
That brings up another point about the specific tailoring of what to do when. We have talked about working/not working specific muscle groups back to back. What has not come up directly is the overall impact of exercise on the system. While specific stress/adaptation signals are sent to the targeted muscle groups, the system as a whole will aportion resources to ALL parts of the body holistically, to maintain homeostasis. Thus, if you do a heavy leag/back day today, and chest/arms tomorrow, and shoulders/abs after that, some things will have to give, and full benefits to any of the "triggered" muscle groups will not be realised. Based on this reasoning alone (seems lazy - until one sees HIT properly applied in the gym) I advocate full body routines, maximum intensity (momentary muscular failure) and sufficient recovery time between gym sessions.