Crap....and they let them get away.

[Franko]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14817922/

Army to probe unauthorized release of photo
Purported spy plane picture of Taliban funeral in Afghanistan given to NBC
Image: Taliban funeral
U.S. Army
NBC says this photo, apparently taken by an American aircraft, shows a Taliban funeral that the U.S. Army wanted to attack.

Updated: 1:53 p.m. ET Sept. 13, 2006

KABUL, Afghanistan - The U.S. military said Wednesday it is looking into the unauthorized release of a photo purportedly taken by an American drone aircraft showing scores of Taliban militants at a funeral in Afghanistan.

NBC TV claimed U.S. Army officers wanted to attack the ceremony with missiles carried by the Predator drone, but were prevented under rules of battlefield engagement that bar attacks on cemeteries.

Lt. Tamara Lawrence, a spokeswoman with the U.S. military in Kabul, said the photograph was released to the network by someone who did not have the clearance to hand it out.

“It is an operational security issue and the photo was released at an inappropriate level,” Lawrence told The Associated Press. “Inquiries are being made into how it was released.”

Lawrence declined to provide further details. It was not clear when the photo was taken nor where the gathering took place.

The grainy black and white photo shows what NBC says are some 190 Taliban militants standing in several rows near a vehicle in an open area of land. Gunsight-like brackets were positioned over the group in the photo.

NBC quoted one Army officer who was involved with the spy mission as saying, “we were so excited” that the group had been spotted and was in the sights of a U.S. drone. But the network quoted the officer, who was not identified, as saying that frustration soon set in after the officers realized they couldn’t bomb the funeral under the military’s rules of engagement.

NATO spokesman James Appathurai declined to comment on the incident.

“I haven’t seen the story and I can’t comment on U.S. rules of engagement,” he told a news conference in Brussels, Belgium.

Funerals not necessarily safe from battle
At the Pentagon, officials also declined to comment on what the photo depicts, when it was taken, and what the rules of engagement are in such situations.

Defense Department officials have said repeatedly that while they try to be mindful of religious and cultural sensitivities, they make no promises that such sites can always be avoided in battle because militants often seek cover in those and other civilian sites.

Mosques and similar locations have become frequent sites of violence in the U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Suicide bombers have attacked at a number of mosques in the conflicts. And in one of the most infamous such incidents in Iraq, one of the largest cemeteries in the Muslim world — at Najaf — become a battleground two years ago as U.S. troops fought Shiite guerrillas hiding among graves and tunnels they had filled with weapons.

Taliban militants this year have been waging their bloodiest campaign of violence since their 2001 ouster from power in the U.S.-led invasion launched after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The U.S. military has previously used Predator drones with deadly effect, firing one missile into a Pakistani tribal area near the Afghan border in January in a failed bid to kill al-Qaida deputy Ayman al-Zawahri. The strike killed at least 13 civilians.

Here's the picture of the target:

So what would you have done?

 

[patrick666]

*press launch-button*

 

[Magravan]

Waited til they moved far enough away, then hit the target. Ignoring rules of engagement seems a slippery slope...

 

[Blakey]

They seem to be fairly well organized, kind of like formed-up? I'm not an expert on Afghan Customs regarding funerals mind you, so this could be the norm. It just looks well, weird they way they are positioned.


Edited to add: I would have called for Arty to be on stand by, called the TOC (if that's who monitors the airspace) and asked who/what was on station flying CAP's in the area and if there were any FF's (ground units) nearby. Dependent on the avail. and pos. of those ground units, set them up in likely avenues of escape and had the drone monitor.

Once the "funeral" started breaking up and they were clear of the area (cemetery), release the hounds!

Of course, I have the added convenience of sitting here behind my computer with all the time in the world and type this out.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

And we know they're Taliban how?  Where are the weapons?  It is rather difficult to second guess an ROE decision based on a single grainy photo...

IIRC, one would line up like this when at prayer.  Consider the impact of targeting this group while at prayer, only to discover that there's no evidence they're Taliban/AQ... Doesn't make for a very nice headline.

 

[Blakey]

TR: Good point, from that image you cant relay see any weapons.

 

[Franko]

And we know they're Taliban how?  Where are the weapons?  It is rather difficult to second guess an ROE decision based on a single grainy photo...

IIRC, one would line up like this when at prayer.  Consider the impact of targeting this group while at prayer, only to discover that there's no evidence they're Taliban/AQ... Doesn't make for a very nice headline.

That's the entire purpose right there of this thread....

It's so easy to critisise the troops in the field, and plenty of members here have done it...to the glee no doubt of the media.

With the evidence before you what would you have done?

This is purely for discussion and nothing more than that.....let's not get into the ROEs in theater.     

Regards

 

[GLOCK 31]

What about waiting till there done and using a drone to follow them?  Might lead you back to where there hiding, or even more.  Either that or launch when they leave the funeral.  Personally I never cared for the rules of engagement, when the other side doesn't respect them.  Seems like fighting with your hands tied behind your back.  You can bet if the tides were turned that they would launch in a second, whether we were armed or not.

Robert

PS.  I am not in the military, just a civi.

 

[George Wallace]

What about waiting till there done and using a drone to follow them?  Might lead you back to where there hiding, or even more.  Either that or launch when they leave the funeral.  Personally I never cared for the rules of engagement, when the other side doesn't respect them.  Seems like fighting with your hands tied behind your back.  You can bet if the tides were turned that they would launch in a second, whether we were armed or not.

Robert

PS.  I am not in the military, just a civi.

I'll accept your Post Script, but you have made it sound like it was a video game.  It is not.  It has too many factors to make that next to impossible.  There is amount of fuel and time on target of the Drone.  Weather.  By the time the Target (all those guys) disperse, what is to say they all go to the same place?  How many of those there heard the Drone and took evaisive actions?  etc. etc.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

With the evidence before you what would you have done?

Check fire unless/until the target is positively identified as enemy.  This isn't an ROE issue, just common sense.

You can bet if the tides were turned that they would launch in a second, whether we were armed or not.

  That's what separates us from them.

 

[Infanteer]

And we know they're Taliban how?  Where are the weapons?  It is rather difficult to second guess an ROE decision based on a single grainy photo...

IIRC, one would line up like this when at prayer.  Consider the impact of targeting this group while at prayer, only to discover that there's no evidence they're Taliban/AQ... Doesn't make for a very nice headline.

+1

I'm willing to bet my socks that there is at least one person in that group that can be regarded as "non-combatant"; instant -1 for us.

Even if they are Taliban, hammering them while at prayer probably wouldn't go over well amongst the average Muslim when Al-Jiz splashes it all over the world.  Hearts and minds, no?

You can probably use that UAV to see where they're going anyways....

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Check fire unless/until the target is positively identified as enemy.  This isn't an ROE issue, just common sense.
  That's what separates us from them.

I was thinking that will readin the post by Glock.  +1.

 

[GLOCK 31]

 That's what separates us from them.

True, your right man. 

 

[Rice0031]

Glock raises a valid point.
Say, by some circumstance or another, they manage to gain intel of some of our troops in the middle of a funeral/ceremony... would they attack, or would they respect it?
I am not trying to get flamed, I acknowledge the fact that they would most likely attack.

Say we had a bit more evidence, actually, say we had enough intel. to prove that they were indeed AQ/taleban, should we have attacked them in the middle of their ceremony? Now, being the guy that I am, I try to respect everyone and their beliefs, but if they would attack us in the same situation, does that mean we should reciprocate? Or should we stick to our values and let them slip away?

Just some musings...

 

[GLOCK 31]

I'll accept your Post Script, but you have made it sound like it was a video game.  It is not.  It has too many factors to make that next to impossible.  There is amount of fuel and time on target of the Drone.  Weather.  By the time the Target (all those guys) disperse, what is to say they all go to the same place?  How many of those there heard the Drone and took evaisive actions?  etc. etc.

Understood.  Just thinking, if they are Taliban, and you can't attack, it be a real shame to just let'em go to fight another day.  Without at least trying to get something more positive than a picture.  Just don't like seeing them get away, but your right sometimes theres nothing you can do.

 

[on guard for thee]

This is not an issue.

What we stand for (and why we are there) makes this a no-brainer.

The "they'd do it, so why don't we" arguement is fundementally wrong, and for the folks here who are in theatre (or on deck to go), please do the following:

1)  Suck back.

2)  Think of who you are, and what you represent.

3)  Ensure you have your head together, and act accordingly.

The alternative is truly an ugly prospect.

2 cents from me

 

[Rice0031]

I totally agree with you, OGFT, I am just trying to inspire somy philosophical debate. Though a 20 year-old computer studies student usually isn't the ideal candidate for such purposes.
If it was my call, because of what I believe in, what "we" believe, I would respect the fact that they are trying to honour their fallen, and an attack in the middle of that would be ... what's the word, indecent/unacceptable. I also agree that this is part of what makes the difference between "us" and "them".

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Whats that old saying Mom used to say??

"2 wrongs don't make a right"?

Something like that.

;D

 

[on guard for thee]

Ack regarding the philosophical debate angle, but on this, there is only one angle.....

If we as a military (read representatives of the Crown) allow ourselves to believe there is "wiggle room" regarding our ethics, we will not be on a slippery slope....we'll be at the bottom of the hill.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The target needs positive ID before anything takes place. Just as an off side. Who decided it was a funeral? Maybe they were all lined up to hear old Osama speak from the back of the truck, maybe it was pay day. Who knows. Let's not let the moralists get our panties in a twist over religious ethics, without absolute proof. It still doesn't relieve us from id'ing the target first.