• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Crap....and they let them get away.

mudeater said:
I apologize for my earlier post. It was meant in jest. I mean no disrespect to our U.S. Brothers in Arms.

We are responsible for what we type and the tone in which is can be read into.
Even if in Jest, it may still be offensive to others, a painful lesson I have also learned
in the last month (if anyone remembers my former blog).

Humour, no matter how good intended it may be, will usually take a parting shot or
offend the person it is directed at.  At best, if you are to mock someone, such as I just
did to MRM, ensure that the other party is willing to play along.  In your case, since many of
us have lost friend(s) to friendly fire by the Americans (myself included), your comment
leaves a bitter remembrance that was not welcome.
 
Magravan said:
But, I highly doubt that there are enough qualified individuals frequenting this forum to make it a thread worth posting (particularly given that it is the US forces) if that were the case.

It is definitely a thread to make you think though, and to highlight some of tough decisions that higher faces on a daily basis.

As for the photo, I have to wonder if there isn't more intel that we are not aware of that brought them to the conclusion that this is a gathering of Taliban.  I can only imagine that someone extremely reckless would come to that conclusion based on that image.

ROE's are there for a reason and are often based on lessons learned from past conflicts and cultural sensibilities.  Vietnam was a learning ground for US on this front.  Mistakes and perceived insults to culture did a lot to undermine the "hearts and mind" campaign.  Every accident like that sets back a mission.  As well we have already seen civilian casualties caused by the misinterpretation of intel.

As for what would I have done, unless I had assets that I could put on the ground to contain and confirm I would have done exactly as these people.  It would have been nice to gets some guys out there to surround the area and see but given the timeline it is doubtful they could have been in place quickly enough.  Better to let some bad guys get away and do what is right by the civilians we are there to help than to make mistakes that could turn the populace against us.  After all, we are there to win the war not just the battle.
 
rmacqueen said:
It is definitely a thread to make you think though, and to highlight some of tough decisions that higher faces on a daily basis.

As for the photo, I have to wonder if there isn't more intel that we are not aware of that brought them to the conclusion that this is a gathering of Taliban.  I can only imagine that someone extremely reckless would come to that conclusion based on that image.

ROE's are there for a reason and are often based on lessons learned from past conflicts and cultural sensibilities.  Vietnam was a learning ground for US on this front.  Mistakes and perceived insults to culture did a lot to undermine the "hearts and mind" campaign.  Every accident like that sets back a mission.  As well we have already seen civilian casualties caused by the misinterpretation of intel.

As for what would I have done, unless I had assets that I could put on the ground to contain and confirm I would have done exactly as these people.  It would have been nice to gets some guys out there to surround the area and see but given the timeline it is doubtful they could have been in place quickly enough.  Better to let some bad guys get away and do what is right by the civilians we are there to help than to make mistakes that could turn the populace against us.  After all, we are there to win the war not just the battle.

+1

I agree... And the war will not solely be won by making members of the Taliban dead. Keeping them from recruiting from the local populace will be an important part of it as well.
 
How about dropping leaflets ... we COULD have bombed you, but we are righteous, and have too much respect for your religion? etc. etc.

Little PSYOPS head game?

Probably a thick idea, but it wouldn't be great for morale.
 
Or dig up the grave and find out why such a large gathering for the fallen...must have been important
 
probum non poenitet said:
How about dropping leaflets ... we COULD have bombed you, but we are righteous, and have too much respect for your religion? etc. etc.

Little PSYOPS head game?

Probably a thick idea, but it wouldn't be great for morale.
Could have been interesting to see the reaction though.
GAP said:
Or dig up the grave and find out why such a large gathering for the fallen...must have been important
That can lead into some dangerous religious/cultural territory not to mention public relations problems.
 
rmacqueen said:
Could have been interesting to see the reaction though.That can lead into some dangerous religious/cultural territory not to mention public relations problems.

Don't think it's not done.
 
GAP said:
Don't think it's not done.
I don't but I would hope the powers that be are very careful about it.  Violation of the dead can, and has, be a very powerful propaganda tool.
 
Imagine a group offered to get the drug dealers and other ne'erdowells out of your neighbourhood (for those not living on base), and all that they required was that you looked the other way while they dug up your grandmother, and did something that you have no clue with her... I'm not religious, but I'd tell them to take a hike before I'd let them dig up my grandmother. She believed it, and I respected her.

The people of Afghanistan will likely be less inclined to allow such desecration, given that they have their own beliefs about the dead.
 
Assuming that the information in that photo is all that is available, there is no conceivable way that an application of lethal force would be justified.  One could get into the nitty-gritty of ROEs (I won't), but just based on the CF Code of Conduct, or even a very cursory application of the Laws of Armed Conflict, there's nothing to suggest that lethal force should be applied.  Doing so, and killing most or even all of those people (because, based on that photo, that's all we can say they are--people) may constitute a tactical success, but could easily become an operational or strategic disaster.  And that's assuming they ARE hostiles, ALL of them.

At best, if I had the assets available to do so, I'd investigate.  For instance, if there were ground forces nearby, I'd consider ordering them to get "eyes on".  Or, I might consider ordering the drone in close enough to be obvious, and just see what the reaction is.  I'd probably consider this location and its vicinity to be an area of interest for future investigation.  To me, this seems to be a potentially valuable source of intelligence information, if I'm able to exploit it properly, but little more.
 
mudeater said:
Since that's an American photo, it was probably a bunch of Canadians formed up for breakfast!

Man that is so not funny.

*edit - seen the other post, the apology one, and "what Trinity said" with a +1 to it. 
 
Mud Recce Man said:
Man that is so not funny.

*edit - seen the other post, the apology one, and "what Trinity said" with a +1 to it. 
+1
 
I have little doubt that a team went into the area after and conducted an investigation (including a forensic investigation if at all possible. Ever wonder what happens on CSI between seasons?).

Going overt has a blend of possibilities and dangers; if they are not aware that we can track them (or don't know how we are doing it) then we should not reveal our hand. I would like a scenario where we can link going overt to some other event (hinting a rival Taliban cell shopped them out would be so ideal). One fantastic article I read many years ago involved a US Marine team (Force Recon?) being inserted on a mountain top. They could observe the NVA, but higher would not release fast air or artillery until an OV-10 or similar spotter plane could be placed on station for a while. Eventually the NVA saw through the ruse, but suffered a severe drubbing in the process while trying to hide from the FAC.  

Of course once "they" figure out what is going on, they will take steps to neutralize whatever it is you are doing.
 
This is in response to the reaction the comment I made on this post. I have already address the two individuals that took such an offence to what I had to say. But I know that many more people may come across this and I wanted to address being accused of being anti-American. This is the first time I have ever been accused of this and I have to sit it didn't sit well at all. First and foremost I love my country. The men and women fighting in the military have my full support. But what I don't support is the fatal errors that the USAF have been making. To find out it has happened once is bad enough, but this appears to have happened a few times now and as someone who has a respect for life to find out that due to errors we are responsible for the deaths of people who are supposed to be fighting with us is not acceptable. I was only appreciating the fact that we were not put in another position to make yet another fatal mistake. Many of the men from my family served in the past and my own sons will serve as well. The thought of them being killed in action is scary, but at least I will find a little comfort in knowing they died fighting for the freedom of my country and the freedom of other countries as well. I appreciate the defending of the USA, but to defend my own country against me is not necessary. I truly meant no disrespect to either your country or my own.  God Bless!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
amberaston said:
. But what I don't support is the fatal errors that the USAF have been making. To find out it has happened once is bad enough, but this appears to have happened a few times now and as someone who has a respect for life to find out that due to errors we are responsible for the deaths of people who are supposed to be fighting with us is not acceptable. I was only appreciating the fact that we were not put in another position to make yet another fatal mistake.

If we [ or anyone] had as much fast air as the US does there then we would have had our share of "mistakes" also.

Ever made a bad decision while driving at 60 miles an hour?.........Now multiply your speed by 10 and make that call.
 
As a civvy, I often wonder what i can bring to a military discussion, there is so much to learn on this forum and I spend more time reading and absorbing information.  Let me add my two bits, if its in error please shut me down as I do not want to offend the brave men and women fighting in these far away lands.

From doing some research on a few of these tragic blue on blue events both in Afghanistan and Gulf War 1, there seems to be a whole series or chain of events that all seem to converge at once causing mistakes and tragedies to happen.  But the criticism from the media and outsiders is directed more often than not solely at the pilot for making the wrong decision.  The picture these critics paint is a pilot sporting a cowboy hat with a twitchy index finger.  When as far as I can tell from these incidents it is a whole chain of events leading up to the tragedy that is the fault. 

If only the plane's vector was a slightly different direction, if only the pilot could see the infared strobes(speculation: that is if the military had funding to buy them, troops had them and were deployed in anticipation of the airstrike), if only it wasn't 5:30am with troops breaking camp and burning garbage, if only the taliban weren't a few hundred yards away with a campfire of their own, if only, if only...

From the pilot's  perspective, he is forced to make split second decisions based on incomplete and sometimes faulty information.  From the numbers amount of close air support missions flown daily it is absolutely amazing to me that more mistakes don't happen. (Someone had a posting of the daily CAF mission logs on a thread somewhere on this site.)

But what do I know, they are well trained professionals with procedures in place to minimize the risk.  Unfortunately the risks are unable to be reduced to zero.  Have trust in the military to thoroughly investigate each and every incident so that something can be learned from the tragedy to hopefully prevent another one occurring.

One can only imagine the personal hell the pilot might be going through at this time. RIP Private Graham and heal up you's others.
 
I agree with both, yes, I have made mistakes at going 60 mph, but none life threatening. Here in the USA it is  a big issue of military spending. I for one believe we should give the military what ever it needs to keep our men and women safe while doing what they are doing. Technology is advanced and correct me if I am wrong but any pilot must get the OK to shoot from whomever is in the authority to offer the go? So again, I would not be able to place any blame on any one person, my thought is that we need to tighten up in whatever area needed in order for this kind of thing not to happen ever again. I am sure that all who were involved were sickened at what happened as well, but we need to do what we can to correct and not repeat. GB
 
I try to imagine what my viewpoint would be if a Canadian pilot made such a mistake.  I think I wouldn't be as fast to point fingers - maybe ask more questions...  But that's just a natural reaction, I mean - I would be slightly embarrassed of such mistake by my country. 

It happens, and it's horrible. But it may help to switch roles and think about how we would feel if places were reversed.
 
It's important, I think, to emphasize the volume of information in the modern battlespace (note, distinct from battlefield, which implies only two dimensions when the modern situation is very much 3D) and the rate it which it comes to an individual soldier or pilot.  This is often discussed but not widely appreciated; as a platoon commander, I typically had only the information available to me that came through my eyes and ears, or was transmitted to me by other members of my platoon or through the radio.  As a company commander, a wider span of influence across the battlespace, more subordinates and two radio nets mulitplied the information load, easily, by a factor of ten.  I've gone to command larger units (up to battlegroup) in simulation and have had the opportunity to work as Chief of Staff in an operational HQ; the information "flux" just keeps multiplying.  Now, I found it hard enough to deal with the rate of movement of myself on foot or in a wheeled or tracked vehicle; I can only begin to imagine what happens when I'm moving through 3 dimensions at hundreds of km per hour.

Frankly, the sheer volume of information sluicing into the military brain as it attempts to not only remain situationally aware, but also make rational decisions in a complex, multi-agency environment is staggering.  It doesn't surprise me that mistakes are occurring; if anything does surprise me, it's that there aren't more of them.  The fact that a perception develops that the US forces make more such mistakes is, I think, a function of the fact that their personnel, still faced with this amount of info-dump, are also often the ones deploying the greatest amount of immediately lethal force (fast air, attack aviation, PGMs that can target well beyond normal line of sight, fire and forget munitions, etc.).  I would suggest that any military personnel of any nation, given the same circumstances, would be just as vulnerable to these sorts of tragic errors.

The solution is better information management.  However, that simple statement hides a massive challenge, which is now being addressed by many greater minds than mine.  I wish them every success.
 
If anyone wants to see how different the perspectives are

    1. walk a piece of ground that has been video taped from any aircraft
    2. take a look at the topographic map of the same ground you walked over( seldom looks the same, but you can identify features)
    3. view the video from an aircraft that flew over the same ground (preferably from same approach).
      You recognize very little of what the person on the ground relates to
 
Back
Top