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Commissionaires

jeffb

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My personal pipe dream to fix the traffic situation in Pet would involve converting the old rail line into a single lane road that connects to Doran. Have it be one way onto the base from 0500 - 1200 and one way off the base from 1230 - 2000 that evening. The real bottleneck here in Pet has nothing to do with the access points and everything to do with crossing points over the River.

Just a little off topic... :)
 

zClassified

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Brihard said:
Commissionairess at a decent post pull in $13-$14 an hour. Marginally higher than your average rent-a-cop, but they're competing for the same labour supply (besides the retired vets- about a third of the team). Police foundations grads who can't get hired, and those who've moved up form rock bottom jobs with Iron Horse Security or what have you.

It is more then that..
 

zClassified

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I don't care how prepared you think you are. Commissionaires are not adequate security.
[/quote]

I meant security in general, but thanks.
 

Towards_the_gap

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I will weigh in on this coversation with the following example:

From 2002-2007 I was posted to a small Royal Engineer base north of Cambridge, UK, which was home to an Engineer Regiment, a Brigade HQ, a TA Regional HQ, and a Specialist Team Royal Engineers. Despite this low amount of manpower, it still had, 24/7, a guard shift of 20-24 soldiers, commanded by a Cpl, supervised by a Provost Sergeant. 2 Soldiers were armed at all times, with 20rd mags, on the front gate, checking ID's and performing searches when required. The remainder either performed roving patrols, security checks on buildings, and 6 of them were Patrol Dog handlers performing roving patrols with their land sharks (patrol dogs are the ones you don't go and pet).

Why on earth this can't be done in Pet, which occupies maybe 50% more real estate than the camp I described, yet has about 200% more manpower, is beyond me. As others have stated it will take a Ft Hood/Beirut barracks type situation to enforce change.
 

Jarnhamar

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Towards_the_gap said:
Why on earth this can't be done in Pet, which occupies maybe 50% more real estate than the camp I described, yet has about 200% more manpower, is beyond me. As others have stated it will take a Ft Hood/Beirut barracks type situation to enforce change.

Man power would probably be an issue. Many units already have duty staff on 24/7.  Plus base duties.  On top of that there is a culture of 1001 medical, dental and other appointments going on.

Add to that units deploying a month here and a month there.
Base security would be a great tasking for a platoon or even companuy?) of  reservist soldiers on contract. Force protection.  A company might be too much but even a platoon would be able to really beef up security.
 

Towards_the_gap

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ObedientiaZelum said:
Man power would probably be an issue. Many units already have duty staff on 24/7.  Plus base duties.  On top of that there is a culture of 1001 medical, dental and other appointments going on.

Add to that units deploying a month here and a month there.
Base security would be a great tasking for a platoon or even companuy?) of  reservist soldiers on contract. Force protection.  A company might be too much but even a platoon would be able to really beef up security.

True, but as stated, it was done on a base with c. 1500 soldiers total, and a far busier deployment schedule than Pet has. It can be rolling task, ie a sub-unit of 1 RCR has it one week, 3 RCR the next, 2 CER the following, or each unit stumps up say 5 cpl-ptes for a 2 week stint, plus 2 MCpl's, 2 Sgts from someone to provide some adult supervision for each shift (Day/Night shifts) and 2 ASG provides the requisite weapons. Or as you say a rolling task for a Pl of reservists augmented by regs (now THAT is turning the world upside down!_)

Anyways, there will be porcine flight before we see it, I'm just saying it's pretty sad that one of the biggest bases in Canada has no physical security in place 99% of the time, when the example I gave was of a much, much smaller establishment still able to guard itself in a credible manner.
 

Greymatters

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Brihard said:
Commissionairess at a decent post pull in $13-$14 an hour. Marginally higher than your average rent-a-cop, but they're competing for the same labour supply (besides the retired vets- about a third of the team). Police foundations grads who can't get hired, and those who've moved up form rock bottom jobs with Iron Horse Security or what have you.

Speaking from inside the private security industry, of the many security companies out there, the Commissionaires have a fairly good reputation, and are better than average.  But they are still static/mobile uniformed positions, which means they are regarded as almost the bottom of the totem pole in the security world.  They are cheap (aka competitive) to hire which means you get what you pay for, but the quality of guard is still better than most private security companies.  If they are sleeping, as one poster mentioned, it's not the standard seen across the country, and should be reported for corrective action. 

     
 

brihard

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Greymatters said:
Speaking from inside the private security industry, of the many security companies out there, the Commissionaires have a fairly good reputation, and are better than average.  But they are still static/mobile uniformed positions, which means they are regarded as almost the bottom of the totem pole in the security world.  They are cheap (aka competitive) to hire which means you get what you pay for, but the quality of guard is still better than most private security companies.  If they are sleeping, as one poster mentioned, it's not the standard seen across the country, and should be reported for corrective action. 

   

At the same time, one would no more hire rent-a-cops from Iron Horse, or Garda, or Capital Security and consider *that* to be effective base security either.
 

Greymatters

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Brihard said:
At the same time, one would no more hire rent-a-cops from Iron Horse, or Garda, or Capital Security and consider *that* to be effective base security either.

At the same time, what you or I might conceive as effective base security is not what the contracting authourity conceives as effective security; which is why they use Commissionaires instead of soldiers...

As a second point, do you really think reg or res force soldiers would do a better job?  CF soldiers are better individuals and more professional than your average security guard, and are great for security at bases outside of Canada, but the very skills needed for a good soldier would make most of them poor security guards for static positions at bases in Canada.







 
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jollyjacktar

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Towards_the_gap said:
I will weigh in on this coversation with the following example:

From 2002-2007 I was posted to a small Royal Engineer base north of Cambridge, UK, which was home to an Engineer Regiment, a Brigade HQ, a TA Regional HQ, and a Specialist Team Royal Engineers. Despite this low amount of manpower, it still had, 24/7, a guard shift of 20-24 soldiers, commanded by a Cpl, supervised by a Provost Sergeant. 2 Soldiers were armed at all times, with 20rd mags, on the front gate, checking ID's and performing searches when required. The remainder either performed roving patrols, security checks on buildings, and 6 of them were Patrol Dog handlers performing roving patrols with their land sharks (patrol dogs are the ones you don't go and pet).

Why on earth this can't be done in Pet, which occupies maybe 50% more real estate than the camp I described, yet has about 200% more manpower, is beyond me. As others have stated it will take a Ft Hood/Beirut barracks type situation to enforce change.
It's the $$$$.  We had following 9/11, until recent cutbacks, force protection people on the gates in the Dkyd.  With the cut backs to the Reserves, something had to give and they were "gone".  It's a shame as they both provided more "teeth" to the gates and gave some decent employment to those who wanted to go this route.
 

Jarnhamar

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Towards_the_gap said:
True, but as stated, it was done on a base with c. 1500 soldiers total, and a far busier deployment schedule than Pet has. It can be rolling task, ie a sub-unit of 1 RCR has it one week, 3 RCR the next, 2 CER the following, or each unit stumps up say 5 cpl-ptes for a 2 week stint, plus 2 MCpl's, 2 Sgts from someone to provide some adult supervision for each shift (Day/Night shifts) and 2 ASG provides the requisite weapons. Or as you say a rolling task for a Pl of reservists augmented by regs (now THAT is turning the world upside down!_)

Anyways, there will be porcine flight before we see it, I'm just saying it's pretty sad that one of the biggest bases in Canada has no physical security in place 99% of the time, when the example I gave was of a much, much smaller establishment still able to guard itself in a credible manner.

It is sad I agree.  And when something bad does happen there is going to be a lot of finger pointing.  I still stand by my belief that we would have a very hard time pulling it off due to the culture we have in the CF.  I doubt the Brits have the same problems we have surrounding fitness and the BFT dilemma. I'd imagine many of them would scratch their heads and say WTF? if they knew.

The subunits could possibly pull it off but with the number of people already on sick chits, appointments, physio...well it would be interesting to read more on how the Brits managed it that's for sure.

I think a 3 month class C or B contract for a platoon of reservists would be ideal.
2009 had some reservists in pet spending the summer cleaning the portable washrooms for the (reserve) PLQ course running. Make the students clean the washrooms themselves at night and have the other guys doing base security even if it's augmenting range control.

Just realized I'm off topic.
I'd like to see commissionaires take over for regimental 24 hour duty but not base security.  We really need to take it  (base security) seriously even if troops suffer some lost xbox time.
 

dogger1936

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George Wallace said:
No kidding.  This culture can be seen in the attitudes displayed in The Chinese are coming! .  Posters there, many of them rather senior members of the site, serving and former members, have replied to my posts as if I had two heads.  It goes to demonstrate the complacency that the majority of Canadians, including CF members, have towards these issues.

What are you going to do to address the problem then?
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Towards_the_gap said:
True, but as stated, it was done on a base with c. 1500 soldiers total, and a far busier deployment schedule than Pet has. It can be rolling task, ie a sub-unit of 1 RCR has it one week, 3 RCR the next, 2 CER the following, or each unit stumps up say 5 cpl-ptes for a 2 week stint, plus 2 MCpl's, 2 Sgts from someone to provide some adult supervision for each shift (Day/Night shifts) and 2 ASG provides the requisite weapons. Or as you say a rolling task for a Pl of reservists augmented by regs (now THAT is turning the world upside down!_)

Anyways, there will be porcine flight before we see it, I'm just saying it's pretty sad that one of the biggest bases in Canada has no physical security in place 99% of the time, when the example I gave was of a much, much smaller establishment still able to guard itself in a credible manner.

I mentioned this exact solution in an earlier post and everyone seemed to just blow it off.  I saw the exact same sort of security at a military camp in Jamaica and I have no idea why this does not happen at our bases or why nobody trusts soldiers to provide security for their own house.  We already have unit DO's and Duty Staff, why not task a platoon to provide security at the garrison on a weekly rotation.

I have proposed this to some of my colleagues and their attitudes are generally less than receptive with common grips being family care plans, appointments and every other excuse under the sun. 

 
A

aesop081

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Stymiest said:
I have proposed this to some of my colleagues and their attitudes are generally less than receptive with common grips being family care plans, appointments and every other excuse under the sun.

They could learn a few things from units that run on shift-work, 24/7/365.
 
F

fraserdw

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Stymiest said:
I mentioned this exact solution in an earlier post and everyone seemed to just blow it off.  I saw the exact same sort of security at a military camp in Jamaica and I have no idea why this does not happen at our bases or why nobody trusts soldiers to provide security for their own house.  We already have unit DO's and Duty Staff, why not task a platoon to provide security at the garrison on a weekly rotation.

I have proposed this to some of my colleagues and their attitudes are generally less than receptive with common grips being family care plans, appointments and every other excuse under the sun.

A platoon is a bit much a rifle section with a proper ROE commanded by the Duty Sgt with Ammunition under the key of the DO.  They would man all the control points on 8 hour shifts of 2 men.  That leaves a quick reaction force 3 men.
 

Towards_the_gap

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Or....

...and this just occured to me as I read replies to my post:

- At other bases in the UK, generally the bigger ones or training establishments with large transient populations, there was what was called the Military Provost Guard Service, which were in the same vein as Commissionaires yet wore DPM uniforms with distinctive headress and cap badges, and were armed when necessary. It only hired former soldiers with 3+ years of service and a good conduct sheet, and were essentially a 4th branch/service of the  Ministry of Defence (a sort of hybrid between MOD Police and serving soldiers). Their terms of service were like that of a serving soldier yet without the liability to serve overseas, and from what I remember they fulfilled the role well. They also had to undertake a variation of the brit IBTS, ie ROE's, wpn handling, PWT's, NBC, but no fitness test or anything else that serving soldiers had to do annually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Provost_Guard_Service

Perhaps this could be an answer, in particular when you consider it an option for those who still wish to serve yet wish to remain in the local area, or for those who want to get out but are struggling to line up civvy employment, or those undergoing CT/OT's, or even those looking at med discharges (provided they are physically and medically able to).


That being said a quick glance at the wikipedia suggests it may be for the chopping block due to cutbacks. Again, I will see pigs fly before I see something like this here, I guess I'm just brainstorming. But it would be nice to see some sort of thought put towards our own physical security at home.
 
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fraserdw

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Nah, someone in Ottawa would take the position numbers and establish another much needed HQ to coord some much needed coord'ing. :sarcasm:

 

wildman0101

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I was a Commisioner. 
good bunch of lad's
Are we getting off track here.
 
F

fraserdw

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No, we are discussing whether to replace commissionaires with soldiers or super ninja commissionaires  a la UK. 
 
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