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Commissionaires

fraserdw said:
A platoon is a bit much a rifle section with a proper ROE commanded by the Duty Sgt with Ammunition under the key of the DO.  They would man all the control points on 8 hour shifts of 2 men.  That leaves a quick reaction force 3 men.

Yes but you could give the task to a pl and then the Pl Comd could task the 2IC to come up with a shift schedule.  If it was a week long task that would mean each sect would get 8 hours on 16 hours off.  This would allow for so-called pers admin to be conducted, as well as facilitate for a family care plan.  A Pl from each unit would be tasked as security for one week at a time on a rotational basis.

 
fraserdw said:
Nah, someone in Ottawa would take the position numbers and establish another much needed HQ to coord some much needed coord'ing. :sarcasm:

Dear me you're right, just the justification they would need to resurrect Canada Command.

Common sense says that apart from a different capbadge/beret and TOS, they are administered, commanded and managed by the Base comd which they guard. There is no career manager since there are no postings, promotions are down to seniority/time served or previous CF qualifications.
 
For security at static positions like standing around a front gate I think commissionaires would take the  job much more seriously than Cpl so and so who's unlucky enough to get picked or doing an extra.  Non broken soldiers are needed for training.

For the tactical side of base security ie taking a quad and checking the perimeter or something soldiers would be better.

Checking ID at the front gate of, say, Petawawa is great security but would be like kicking a wasp nest in terms of pissing everyone off considering how long it takes to get into and out of work at peek times, at the best of times.
Heard that they are  shutting the front gate down while bridge repairs are being done and only opening it 3 times a day  ::)
 
Stymiest said:
Yes but you could give the task to a pl and then the Pl Comd could task the 2IC to come up with a shift schedule.  If it was a week long task that would mean each sect would get 8 hours on 16 hours off.  This would allow for so-called pers admin to be conducted, as well as facilitate for a family care plan.  A Pl from each unit would be tasked as security for one week at a time on a rotational basis.

That is basically how we did it at the base in my first example.

We had 3 field squadrons in the regiment. Each squadron tasked a Cpl (Gd Comd), LCpl (Gd 2IC), +8 sappers for the detail, then they worked a 3 week schedule of a week of 8 hour days, a week of 14 hour nights, and then a week off.
 
It happens at at least 3 bases that I can think of (generally by commissionaires now) Esquimalt and Halifax had rifleman at the gates and Winnipeg still checks ID at the gate
 
I was a comissionare. so are you saying after our release from the military we becone brain dead.
My Sec/C was secret. My specialization": intelligence- Combat intel Op. Intel/you dont need to know.
So tell me why an X-military cant handle the job assinged. When he was trained to do so...???

 
ObedientiaZelum said:
For security at static positions like standing around a front gate I think commissionaires would take the  job much more seriously than Cpl so and so who's unlucky enough to get picked or doing an extra.  Non broken soldiers are needed for training.

For the tactical side of base security ie taking a quad and checking the perimeter or something soldiers would be better.

Checking ID at the front gate of, say, Petawawa is great security but would be like kicking a wasp nest in terms of pissing everyone off considering how long it takes to get into and out of work at peek times, at the best of times.
Heard that they are  shutting the front gate down while bridge repairs are being done and only opening it 3 times a day  ::)

American military bases with troop populations that total the whole of the CF and more, have no problems with these measures.  I don't hear of them having any large delays in personnel accessing their bases for work. 

The modern Cpl you just described would be shocked to know that Cpls and Ptes once did these duties, and did check IDs at the gate. 

On another note, if we look at the Americans, they have MP Bns, where we have only MP Platoons.  Would Base Security not be more in line with a beefed up MP ......let's say Coy, to cover such duties.  That would then no longer necessitate Bde and Lodger units providing duty staff.
 
When I was in 2 VP, in the 80s, we had a duty rifle company, one week each.  We did fun jobs during the day (toast in the WO and officers messes, pots in the kitchen) and fire picket at night rotating through platoons and sections.  Everyone joined the fun including the living outs.  The officers did DO, the Sgt D Sgt and MCpls duty Cpl.  The OC was the Duty Field Grade Officer (which consisted of going home at 1630 every day and little else).  Fire picket consisted of touring the whole of Kapyoung Barracks, we could have easily be armed or used as security.  It was good fun lots of male bonding!  We have forgotten how to stand duty in the army, there used to be duties for everyone!  We had 1 commissionare for the whole base and he stayed at the main gate.
 
Towards_the_gap said:
That is basically how we did it at the base in my first example.

We had 3 field squadrons in the regiment. Each squadron tasked a Cpl (Gd Comd), LCpl (Gd 2IC), +8 sappers for the detail, then they worked a 3 week schedule of a week of 8 hour days, a week of 14 hour nights, and then a week off.

This was the case in Jamaica as well.  In Up Park Camp they had a coy of MP's to provide security; however, in Moneague it was the resident Bn that provided the security.  They always had a sect on duty providing roving patrols, as well as static gate security.  Not only that, they managed to do this at times while having one coy tasked with counter narcotics operations and another coy on QRF for the Bn conducting Internal Security Ops in Kingston.
 
wildman0101 said:
so are you saying after our release from the military we becone brain dead.

Nope, that is not what people said.

My Sec/C was secret.

Is that all ? What do you do with a clearance like that, read the newspaper ?

Your security clear has jack***t to do with the subject.

Intel/you dont need to know.

I'm not convinced you know.

So tell me why an X-military cant handle the job assinged. When he was trained to do so...???

They can handle the job assigned. The job assigned is inadequate and they are not trained to do the job that is needed.
 
Stymiest said:
This was the case in Jamaica as well.  In Up Park Camp they had a coy of MP's to provide security; however, in Moneague it was the resident Bn that provided the security.  They always had a sect on duty providing roving patrols, as well as static gate security.  Not only that, they managed to do this at times while having one coy tasked with counter narcotics operations and another coy on QRF for the Bn conducting Internal Security Ops in Kingston.

Don't we have a MP Coy in Petawawa who are not doing beat cop around base? Wouldn't that be a perfect policing task for these folk?
 
"Target hardening", and "crime prevention through environmental design".

Some whackjob who wants to waste a bunch of people he sees as representative of his ideological enemy will go for the best balance of feasibility, versus impact. If a base is wide open, he just might drive a panel van with a few hundred pounds of ANFO into a deployment departure ceremony, or a brigade change of command parade. If the base is not wide open, he may elect to hit something else- a government building, a police station, whatever.

Are skilled, motivated combat soldiers best employed as gate security of CFB Petawawa? Perhaps not. Perhaps they'll be bored. Perhaps they'll get complacent. But that's a leadership issue, and I have full faith in general in our sub unit leadership. I'm confident that the job of base security could be effectively done. I would contend that we should also be looking to the navy for some input on this, as armed security is, so far as I understand, something that they conduct, and they take seriously. Anecdotally I was speaking to some folks this week with some experience in Halifax, and apparrenty infantry reservists are increasingly being employed in such a role.

Nobody here is arguing that commissionaires are incapable of doing the jobs *they are hired for*. However I also know from my completion of their nine day course after a close brush with unemployment that it is formal policy within the corps of commissionaires that they are strictly a hands-off security company whose 'actions on' are to summon authorities. And, as we all know, when seconds count the police are only minutes away. I've got no problem using commissionaires to check IDs. And I have no problem having my ID checked every time I enter a base; it seems to work at Stadacona or Dockyards, though I've admittedly not been there during the morning rush. I can also think of the permanent ECPs I've been through on some US bases, where armed soldiers- wearing PPE no less - were on security duty.

Our base security is a joke. Will it take a mass shooting by some Jihadi before we realize that? Our bases lack even a single line of *defense* under normal circumstances. Given the ease with which many dozens or hundreds of us could be killed and injured in an attack if someone were suitably motivated, and given that our field force is the very asset our nation will depend on in a security crisis, I don't consider this acceptable.
 
dogger1936 said:
Don't we have a MP Coy in Petawawa who are not doing beat cop around base? Wouldn't that be a perfect policing task for these folk?

They are actually not much more than a Platoon.
 
George Wallace said:
They are actually not much more than a Platoon.

:salute: Roger that. Don't know too much more about them than their sign I would jog past on base.


 
Couldn't the DND hire uniformed special constables as DND Police, to augment the MPs on base? Like how in the States they have DoD Police... Just a thought. I know that cost might be an issue, but has this ever been looked into?

The DND hires civilian fire fighters, so could potentially having uniformed police officers resolve some of the problems with commissionaires.
 
Cui said:
Couldn't the DND hire uniformed special constables as DND Police, to augment the MPs on base? Like how in the States they have DoD Police... Just a thought. I know that cost might be an issue, but has this ever been looked into?

The DND hires civilian fire fighters, so could potentially having uniformed police officers resolve some of the problems with commissionaires.

The MPs and these guys would but heads all the time. The CF is ridiculously territorial.
 
Well then, re-define the MP role to purely operational/field policing, and leave the garrison stuff to the DND Police?

Awaiting incoming from our red-capped brethren.........
 
Towards_the_gap said:
Well then, re-define the MP role to purely operational/field policing, and leave the garrison stuff to the DND Police?

Awaiting incoming from our red-capped brethren.........

I think we already beat that one to death here somewhere.
 
I have heard that teh Brits have soemthing similar to a "DoD" police force.  Basically, like reservists on contract providing armed security to military facilities and offices.  Not sure if it's true but the source was credible.  I mean, our nuclear facilities have armed security, why not some military facilities?
 
I think that for most Canadians, not exposed to the CF and military bases, the perception is that it being a military base, people (CF members) are walking around fully armed at all times.  "Why else would it be a military base?"  I think most are not aware that for the most part members of the CF go about their normal garrison duties unarmed.
 
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