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CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

I have a different take on it. It will be we know we have to spend alittle i more on defence we will see what we can do. Can we include the Coast Guard, RCMP and few other things in the total? Plus We have the 88 F35 on order. We have 23 navy ships being built and 22 Coast Guard. So we are good. We are working with you on NORAD upgrade.
It sucks because on the surface it seems like we aren’t spending more on defence than we used to, and given some of the issues we have, that would seem a reasonable observation.

The issue isn’t the budget, nor the capabilities the military wants to come online.

The issue is how that budget is spent (or how it’s required to be spent) and the gatekeepers on the projects (Treasury Board.)


In regards to NORAD — the radars need to be replaced with much more modern systems — the cost sharing on that will happen within government.

We have 88 F-35’s on order.

The 15 CSC, once fully floated out, will make Canada the 3rd largest Aegis-equipped navy in the world. (I believe Japan has 2nd place and will retain that.)


Other than having a fleet of F-35’s, a fleet of Aegis equipped ships, a renewed & modernized radar network, likewise for a sonar network, and a replacement for the trio of space satellites Canada launched with observation of the North as one ironies primary mission sets…realistically speaking, what else could Canada do that would be of real value?



(Asking seriously, because I’m sure there are a bunch of things we could do to add value that I just can’t think of. I’m out of my lane here)
 
From an economic perspective, Canada needs more pilots, and traditionally the military has been a strong source of commercial pilots. Growing the RCAF, doubling pilot output, and growing the airlift capacity (doubling would be a good start), establishing a large western air transport hub... Establishing a second Chinook squadron in Edmonton. Grow northern utility aircraft fleets.

Invest in modernization of warehousing and inventory management. Start a proper program to acquire 1/8 of the CAF's green logistics fleet annually, and lifecycle manage the fleet (not feast or famine, varying by vehicle type).

That's a top of brain dump that only scratches the surface...
 
It sucks because on the surface it seems like we aren’t spending more on defence than we used to, and given some of the issues we have, that would seem a reasonable observation.

The issue isn’t the budget, nor the capabilities the military wants to come online.

The issue is how that budget is spent (or how it’s required to be spent) and the gatekeepers on the projects (Treasury Board.)


In regards to NORAD — the radars need to be replaced with much more modern systems — the cost sharing on that will happen within government.

We have 88 F-35’s on order.

The 15 CSC, once fully floated out, will make Canada the 3rd largest Aegis-equipped navy in the world. (I believe Japan has 2nd place and will retain that.)


Other than having a fleet of F-35’s, a fleet of Aegis equipped ships, a renewed & modernized radar network, likewise for a sonar network, and a replacement for the trio of space satellites Canada launched with observation of the North as one ironies primary mission sets…realistically speaking, what else could Canada do that would be of real value?



(Asking seriously, because I’m sure there are a bunch of things we could do to add value that I just can’t think of. I’m out of my lane here)
there is tons of stuff. But in all reality Canada is just basically an insurance company with a very small army. An almost bankrupt insurance company with bad management at that.
 
there is tons of stuff. But in all reality Canada is just basically an insurance company with a very small army. An almost bankrupt insurance company with bad management at that.
But what kinds of stuff?

With new radar & sonar networks, BMD capable ships, 88 F-35’s more capable to shooting down threats than the current CF-18’s, and new satellites to keep watch over the north… from a NORAD perspective, what kinds of other stuff can we/should we do?
 
But what kinds of stuff?

With new radar & sonar networks, BMD capable ships, 88 F-35’s more capable to shooting down threats than the current CF-18’s, and new satellites to keep watch over the north… from a NORAD perspective, what kinds of other stuff can we/should we do?
Basically I'm at the point put up the white flag. Tell the US you do it. Let Any Canadian join your forces if they want to do that kind of thing.

But what would I do if you catch me on a better day?

First recruitment drive. Remove the many many barriers there. (slow answers, too long security and med checks etc etc.) Get people in. It's going to be rough....on the job training. Close down the cube farms in Ottawa.

Ok after that and lets say the people problem is better. Speed up the shipbuilding programs. I would concentrate on the RCN and RCAF first. Sorry Army. But get more trucks many trucks. So we are buying F35, the new ships and the Norad radars. Also upgrade the sonar systems in the North and the coast approaches. That would make the Americans happy. Oh and buy the P-8

With just that I have blown the budget.

Ok but now you ask me If I had a magic wand and what Canada to be grown up.
Get in on the AUKUS but from a different angle. Yes tell them would like to first join. But are reserving the decision on the nuclear subs right now. But we want to observe. But for that we are going to throw a great big bone in the mix (this one is my crazy idea and it will never work). As part of the AUKUS + Can we are going to develop an new deep water in BC for navy ships. Nuclear sub would just be one type of ship. (I know just the land claim alone would be hard.) But and here is the bone we will enter into an agreement with the UK to station the PoW in the port in the Pacific. The RN will have problem maintaining a two ship CV fleet. The PoW is having machinery problems and maybe sidelined for costs. We will then help run the PoW ala the WWII Nabob and Puncher. This is the area I would put a major money of the increase. 12 of the F35A changed to F35B's too. There the RCN becomes a major play in the Pacific. I know we are missing the AA destroyer(s) for the RCN/RN CSG but I'm sure we can get help for that.
 
I have a different take on it. It will be we know we have to spend alittle i more on defence we will see what we can do. Can we include the Coast Guard, RCMP and few other things in the total? Plus We have the 88 F35 on order. We have 23 navy ships being built and 22 Coast Guard. So we are good. We are working with you on NORAD upgrade.

I believe the Americans know they to defend all of North America but what they need from Canada is for us to mostly shut up and when required support. The current Liberals and NDP have been the most quiet about American foreign policy in the last 50 years. It's very weird. I would suspect a "deal" has been made. Not like a real paper deal. But something like we understand you guys are not a serious nation you can stay that way but you can no longer bite the hand that feeds you.
I think its a little more serious than that. What Trump policies in relation to Canada has Biden given Canada a break on? A battery plant ? big whoop. Legault is moaning about Roxham road. Watch Trudeau quietly educate Canadians about the 2 Million + per year that are crossing the U.S. southern border. 39,000 at Roxham rd, cry me a river is what the Biden admin is going to tell Trudeau.
It sucks because on the surface it seems like we aren’t spending more on defence than we used to, and given some of the issues we have, that would seem a reasonable observation.

The issue isn’t the budget, nor the capabilities the military wants to come online.

The issue is how that budget is spent (or how it’s required to be spent) and the gatekeepers on the projects (Treasury Board.)


In regards to NORAD — the radars need to be replaced with much more modern systems — the cost sharing on that will happen within government.

We have 88 F-35’s on order.

The 15 CSC, once fully floated out, will make Canada the 3rd largest Aegis-equipped navy in the world. (I believe Japan has 2nd place and will retain that.)


Other than having a fleet of F-35’s, a fleet of Aegis equipped ships, a renewed & modernized radar network, likewise for a sonar network, and a replacement for the trio of space satellites Canada launched with observation of the North as one ironies primary mission sets…realistically speaking, what else could Canada do that would be of real value?



(Asking seriously, because I’m sure there are a bunch of things we could do to add value that I just can’t think of. I’m out of my lane here)
How about an 8 Pack of Modern AIP Submarines to train the Yanks and really patrol Canadian waters.
 
Enough modern missiles to provide full load outs for all 88 F35s at least 2-3 times.

Enough modern missiles to give all 15 CSC full load outs several times with different configurations.

Robust spare parts procurement to enable operational capabilities above 85%.

Increase maintenance personnel and facilities to enable 85% operational readiness.

Procure and deploy AD systems to protect Cdn naval bases and airfields from cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and when/if hypersonic weapons.

Join the US development programs for next generation fighters.

Once second flight of CSC hits the water start working on what comes after the last CSC is launched.

Order the 6-8 A330s now and reserve the MRTT conversion slots now.
 
Don't say we didn't warn you...

PAL’s Global 6500-based Maritime Patroller Emerges

by Jon Lake
- February 28, 2023, 5:40 AM

PAL P-6 maritime patrol aircraft.
This P-6 model was displayed a the IDEX show with underwing weaponry. An option is an underbelly "flex bay" that can carry various weapons and air-droppable rescue kits. (Photo: Jon Lake)
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http://www.linkedin.com/shareArticl... PAL as competition to Boeing’s P-8 Poseidon.

https://army.ca/forums/javascript:window.print();
PAL Aircraft Services’ P-6 maritime patrol aircraft was a surprise debutante at the IDEX show held last week in Abu Dhabi. The new type, based on a Bombardier Global 6500 business jet, bears some similarities to the abandoned Saab Swordfish concept.
Since the end of the Swordfish program, Boeing has drawn ever closer to the end of P-8A Poseidon production, with the P-8A line expected to close within three years without further orders, assuming a minimum viable production rate of 12 aircraft per year. “Now is the time for a market filler,” Mahmoud El-Awini, PAL’s vice president of business development, told AIN, describing a looming “jet gap”.
Many elements of the P-6 concept remain undefined as they will depend on customer requirements and PAL itself is platform- and systems-agnostic. The aircraft is being designed in partnership with Thales, with radar and sonobuoys from the French company expected to form the basis of an initial baseline configuration.
Like the Swordfish, the P-6 has a 360-degree radar, though this is understood to be a mechanically-scanned system and not AESA technology. The new aircraft also has an undernose EO/IR sensor, and a magnetic anomaly detector sensor, as well as electronic support measures, datalinks, and satcoms.
The aircraft will accommodate between three and eight operator workstations, with five being viewed as the optimum number, and they will be evolved from those developed for the company’s Q400-based P-4 MPA, now in service with the UAE Air Force and Air Defence. This promises to allow crews to be cross-trained on both types. This is significant, says CEO Keith Stoodley, because, “we view the P-4 and P-6 as complementary products. The P-4 has been designed as a littoral ASW asset whereas the P-6 is designed as a blue-ocean ASW asset.”
One feature not shown on models of the P-6, but much in evidence in more recent CGI images, is a box-like “flex bay” behind the search radar. This is able to carry torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, or SAR kits, and can be augmented by between two and six underwing stores stations.

The Abu Dhabi-based company expects a launch customer for the P-6 “soon”. A number of local air forces, including that of the UAE itself, are known to be looking to increase their MPA/ASW and maritime ISR capabilities. Boeing has marketed the P-8 to Saudi Arabia, for example, while other GCC nations face similar surface and sub-surface threats.
Sweden's Saab has no plans to dust off its Global 6000-based Swordfish MPA model, leaving the P-6 as the primary competitor to the P-8 in a number of competitions. “As a company with one foot in the UAE and one foot in Canada, we are clearly watching developments as they pertain to Canada’s process to replace its fleet of CP-140 Auroras,” Stoodley concluded.
So...has a flex bay for internal weapons storage. Wasn't the lack of internal weapons bays one of the major strikes against the Swordfish?

Not an in service platform? Type 26 enters the chat...
 
So at this point in time it is a “model”.

Zzz Ok GIF by Jim Gaffigan
 
Enough modern missiles to provide full load outs for all 88 F35s at least 2-3 times.

I would hope the F35s would last longer than 2 to 3 active missions - need more missiles

Enough modern missiles to give all 15 CSC full load outs several times with different configurations.

Many, many more

Add in more RCAF and RCN missiles for Ground Launched systems like NASAMS and Coastal Artillery to complement HIMARS.

dsf
Robust spare parts procurement to enable operational capabilities above 85%.

Increase maintenance personnel and facilities to enable 85% operational readiness.

Procure and deploy AD systems to protect Cdn naval bases and airfields from cruise missiles, ballistic missiles and when/if hypersonic weapons.

Join the US development programs for next generation fighters.

Once second flight of CSC hits the water start working on what comes after the last CSC is launched.

Order the 6-8 A330s now and reserve the MRTT conversion slots now.

Yep throughout.
 
Don't say we didn't warn you...


So...has a flex bay for internal weapons storage. Wasn't the lack of internal weapons bays one of the major strikes against the Swordfish?

Not an in service platform? Type 26 enters the chat...
We’ve been pumping billions into that fucking company and got nothing but more whining. If the Americans get what they want we will get the P-8a that is what we will get. I hope the Americans get their way.

Reading the buy and sell I didn’t think the P-8 would fit. I wold be thrilled to be wrong. If I were Boeing i would ask the current government if they would start losing Boeing jobs.

No American company will sell weapons or work with us with integration. MBDA will be our friend.
 
No American company will sell weapons or work with us with integration. MBDA will be our friend.
Hmmmm….not sure about that. American companies live selling to friends that don’t want to secure IP, and appear to not have an issue being beholden to the American military-industrial complex.
 
Hmmmm….not sure about that. American companies live selling to friends that don’t want to secure IP, and appear to not have an issue being beholden to the American military-industrial complex.
My point is that if we were choose a different MPA than what the US Government wants, there might be repercussions. NORAD and all.
 
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