Class C Admin Issues

[HollywoodHitman]

Just a quick one everyone...I've heard the horror stories, but am now living it.......Just want to get an idea of some other soldiers' experiences.

TM

 

[pbi]

Our experience here in 38 CBG has generally supported these concerns. While both the last Area Comd and  CLS pledged to fix what appears to be a cumbersome, error-fraught system, I am not sure this can be done within the Army alone. Particularly during the last few major Dom Ops we have found that the system simply cannot respond fast enough without major administrative effort. IMHO, it should be a much smoother system. Cheers.

 

[HollywoodHitman]

PBI,

Thanks for the reply........My poll isn't meant as a whine, but so I can get an indication of how many others have experienced difficulties in this area. It's been suggested that once the redress process is completed that I consider filing a complaint with the Ombudsman, so if the poll indicates it, I can look at helping others gather information to present en masse.

When voicing my concerns to the higher ups, I indicated that I'd like to help find a solution for the problem, at least for this Brigade......

It shouldn't cost troops money to serve their country.

TM

 

[MJP]

One of the major problems with reservist and Class C pay is that the Reserve pay ssytem (RPSR) is not the same nor is it compatiable with the Reg Force pay system.   This means clerks on both sides are not familar with how to properly input a Class C soldier onto the pay system.   You can use RPSR for Class C under 90 days, but it's not done often enough for the clerks to become overly familar with it and problems arise.   For longer than 90 days they send a message off to NDHQ and you are inputted onto the Reg Force pay sytem.   That means there is often a delay in implementing a pay when a soldier commeces a Class C contract.   The other major problem happens at the end of a contract when they either neglect to inform NDHQ when your end contract date will be.   It may vary because of leave, medical issues etc etc than was was originally on your contract.   This where most of the reserve grievances occur( I know it has happened twice for me) and it seems that a clerk has to be really switch on to make sure it doesn't happen, as well as the gaining unit has to be proactive in dealing with reserve pay isssues.

I really hope that in this day in age with the amount of reserve integration that the Regulars see that making a compatiable pay system is one of the priorities for the military.

 

[Long in the tooth]

The issue regarding Class C service is quite valid.  During the fires in BC we had 75 +/- depl from our area (that I was responsible for).  Believe it or not, on return some members were identified that we (the OR) were not aware were deployed.  There had been a disconnect between the training/mounting unit and the admin/pay system.  On return, however, each member was personally interviewed and all class A, B, and C time as well as FOA, TD and claims sorted out.  Not one member left not knowing that the pay was squared away.

IMHO the problem with Class C is that a two week depl is treated the same as a 9 month contract.  Legal, dental, medical and security niceties must be up to standard.  As these are NEVER up to date in the class A world, it means a class C depl essentially raises members to RegF standards. Just look at the number of posts of people here trying to join or trans to the RegF.  Interchangeability and TOS are our biggest problem.

 

[pbi]

WOG (whoah-those initials don't work out very well, do they?):

Roger that on the burden that Class C admin places on getting Res out for a Dom Op: we also experienced that in our Bde during OP PEREGRINE, including a rather unrealistic screening requirement that was equivalent to that required for a Roto. As so often happens, the greater CF/NDHQ world is out of step with the Army. Both the last CLS and this one have given clear direction the Res are to have an important role in dom ops: here in LFWA the Area Comd auth immediate response by Res units in "life and limb" situations when summoned by competent local authority. At the same time we still seem to be caught in a swamp with the slowness and confusion of Class C admin. Cheers.

 

[HollywoodHitman]

Interestingly enough, I was speaking to someone working in the Orderly room in Esquimalt, regarding contracts and pay issues etc. They said that the Naval Reserve doesn't have the same kinds of difficulties as Reserve Air and Land have regarding their admin. The Navy Reserve system is apparently identical and managed by the same people as the Regular Navy, therefore there are no (or much fewer) issues when the Navy Reservists are activated or put on contracts or course. They apparently even have career managers, versus the army's shotgun approach.

I'm wondering if retention, education and training of 'Mo soldiers wouldnt be better overall if this type of this was adopted by the Air and Land admin systems. This would make sense as the number of reservists being deployed will increase rather than decreas over the next several years.

TM

 

[pbi]

The problem here, I think, is that the manner in which the Army and the Navy employ Reservists is quite different. As far as I know (and I stand to be corrected...) the Navy tends to employ most Reservists as individuals, or at best as the crews of relatively small vessels, on a fairly well-planned and predictable time line to do well-identified jobs of a largely technical nature. The Nav Res is also considerably smaller than the Army Res, and has only a secondary role in responding to domestic emergencies (dom ops, except maritime SAR, is overwhelmingly an Army job in Canada). Clearly, the NavRes is more fully integrated with the Regular Navy than the Army Res is with the Regular Army. Thus it is probably easier to administer Class C for the NavRes.

The Army Res, on the other hand, especially in dom ops, tends to employ Reservists in larger numbers with very little warning, gathering them from a large number of parent units and formations, which IMHO can easily lead to confusion. For overseas operations, Army Res are often employed by units and HQs to whom they are complete strangers, unlike the smaller and more compact Naval world in which there are only two operational formations, and a small number of Res units with no intervening formation or regional HQs.

Still, all that aside, we need to do better where Class C admin for Res is concerned, especially when responding to an emergency. Cheers.

 

[Gunner]

HollywoodHitman,

I have abit of experience (and horror stories) with Class C issues (domestic and international).  What seems to be the problem.  If you need advice/sober second thought, you can post it here or PM me.

Cheers,

 

[HollywoodHitman]

Gunner, rather than publish whats happening to me on the forum, I'm simply going to redress the problems and seek solutions through the chain for now. It's not an issue which can be addressed by my unit CO, so I will wait and see how far up the chain it goes. My faith in the system is almost non-existent at the moment, but I can only do my best to wait patiently for the system to mess it up. The responsibility is likely to be shifted from one group/person to the other until it falls into oblivion, or until it takes so long they will hope I give up on it and move on. Classic. After my recent tour, I was ready to go for another one, excited at the possibilities and opportunities. I am almost to the point where rather than pursuing a commission as was recommended to me after my tour, turning in my soldier suit altogether. For some reason that idea saddens me, and I am not a quitter, so I will not likely do the effortless and easy thing and walk away.

Once I have a reply to my redress, I will consider posting the specifics of the issue. When asking about solutions, I indicated that I was less inclined to seek compensation for my situation ( a major financial shafting) than I was interested in helping to ensure this didn't happen to other soldiers.

PBI......You're right that the Navy often uses individuals as augmentees more often than the Army does. I do not disagree. However when you look at the level of incompetence (strong word yes, but more than applicable) in administrating individual augmentees and soldiers to missions such as Palladium etc. It seems as though each time an individual soldier is supplied, the system seems to be so uncertain what the proper procedures to follow are, that it is like they are the first Canadian soldier deployed, ever. There is simply no excuse. Why would they not have a central processing facility where ALL soldiers go through prior to deployment, regardless of their base or unit of origin? It seems that CFB Trenton might be a good place to start. Thats the hub!!!   I do not have the experience with Admin issues to offer a better suggestion or come up with a viable solution, but as a non-com with a small bit of soldiering experience, I know when the troops are getting screwed unneccessarily in the long run. We clearly have a system which is ineffective, so why after so long has it not been fixed?

After something in the neighbourhood of 50,000+ soldiers rotated into and out of BiH since the early 90's, you'd think they'd have SOMETHING they can use as a guide, as it is highly unlikely that each augmentee has a unique deployment situation. I think it is more likely that the same problems occur over and over again, without being properly addressed, the classic 'It's not my problem, I'll let the next guy deal with it'.........Who suffers? The troops.........There seem to be re-ocurring themes of 'its not my problem' or 'it's just the men' in the military today, and I'd submit that when a soldier reg or reserve leaves their families to serve, the last thing they need on their minds is the fear that their and their families' interests are not being taken seriously or cared for.

I'd love to get some more feedback and stories on here, and stats for the poll.

Anyway, slowly ideas and whatnot are coming on the page here, so thanks for that all......Please keep them coming.

TM

 

[Scott]

While on Op Persistence I, the lowly Private, was paid as a lofty M/Cpl. How and why is not known to me. It took me months to sort that issue out. And, by the way, when YOU owe the CF money, they just take it, they don't tell you, they just take. I had to work for free for 9 months as I did not want to pay it back in a lump sum. You see, my thoughts were that if they taxed me on the initial payment and they tax me on my pay before they deduct to get back the difference then I may get away with one on Revenue Canada. Alas it all worked out the same, but it was fun.

 

[pbi]

And, by the way, when YOU owe the CF money, they just take it, they don't tell you, they just take

Scott: if that is what happened to you, then you were screwed over. I've  been recovered against a couple of times over the years, for considerable amounts both times. The normal practice for a recovery should be that your pay office informs you of the overpayment and intent to recover. Then, you should be able to discuss repayment with them, so that you do not experience unnecessary financial hardship while paying back the Crown. In the last resort your CO can get involved to authorize a repayment plan: it is up to the CO not the pay office, as long as there is a reasonable plan to repay the Crown.

Cheers.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Every time I've had an overpayment I send a memo to the CO claiming financial hardship. It's stood every time, and the Army gets their money back at $25.00 a pay.

 

[Scott]

Chalk another tick for the CF then. Buggers. They told me that I could pay it all back lump sum or pay it back in Class A days. I would never agree to going a couple weeks without pay on Class B but at the time I had a good job and knew I wouldn't miss a few months of A Days and Weekends. I did some checking though, and found out that the reason I was paid as a M/Cpl is because there was another in the unit at the same time with the same last name but with different rank. Funny, his MOC was 811, mine was R031, you'd think they'd notice. It was also hard to go after the paymaster as she was married to the OC :-X

EDIT: God, now that I think of it more, I recall we had one poor Newfoundlander who went all the way through his QL2 (Eight wks) Two weeks of leave and then halfway through his QL3 (4 weeks) without receiving one red cent from the CF. 14 weeks of Class B time they had to sort that out and couldn't, plus you'd think he had some Class A days prior, drawing kit, etc. I recall one of the higher ups from LFAA visiting us while we were on the range and one of our staff making a snarky comment about how the pay system was really arsed up, they used this poor young troop as an example. The General stormed off the range and had someone up to give that man an advance within the hour. Good reaction but way too long in the making.