CIC Physical Fitness Standards - Split from Transfer from PRes to CIC

[armyvern]

It all boils down to employment in a job they have been trained to accomplish.  Given the limitations to the CICs military training, there are few if any positions outside the cadet movement where they can be advantageously employed.  As stated, requires NDHQ approval for each and every single one - without exception.

Again, the point is "moot" & CIC officers are not required to accomplish a CF Express test as a normal part of their training.

True that -- and here it is "officially":

CANFORGEN 081/05 270938Z APR 05 VCDS: CLARIFICATION ON THE USE OF CADET INSTRUCTOR CADRE (CIC) OFFICERS OUTSIDE THE CANADIAN CADET MOVEMENT

UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. DGRC MESSAGE 488 011853Z SEP 98
B. D RES MESSAGE 311 041411Z FEB 04

1. THIS MESSAGE REPLACES REFERENCE B. THE POLICY ON TERMS OF SERVICE FOR CIC OFFICERS HAS BEEN APPLIED INCONSISTENTLY OVER THE YEARS. WITH THE IMPENDING IMPLEMENTATION OF AN OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE FOR CIC OFFICERS SOME OF THE ISSUES REGARDING PERMISSIBLE USE OF CIC OFFRS WILL BE RESOLVED. THERE STILL MAY BE SOME AGENCIES OUTSIDE THE CCM WHO UNKNOWINGLY MISUSE MEMBERS OF THE CIC. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO REITERATE THE POLICY THAT CIC OFFICERS WILL NOT BE USED OUTSIDE THE CCM

2. THE PRIMARY DUTY OF A CIC OFFICER IS THE SAFETY, SUPERVISION, ADMINISTRATION, AND TRAINING OF CADETS. AS DEFINED IN QR&O 2.034(C), THE RAISON D'ETRE OF CIC OFFICERS IS TO BE EXPERTS IN YOUTH LEADERSHIP ON BEHALF OF THE CF

3. THE PURPOSE OF REFERENCE A WAS TO REMIND EMPLOYERS THAT THE CIC HAT BADGE IS NOT BE USED AS A BADGE OF CONVENIENCE TO ALLOW PERSONNEL TO LEAVE THE REGULAR FORCE OR THE PRIMARY RESERVE AT THE AGE OF 55 AND CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE IN THE CF WHILE WEARING THE CIC HAT BADGE AND CONTINUING IN THEIR SAME JOB UNTIL THE AGE OF 65 - THE CRA FOR CIC OFFICERS. THE MESSAGE STATED, IT IS ONLY WHEN HE/SHE IS EMPLOYED IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF CCO ACTIVITIES THAT A CIC OFFICER OR A SUPP RES MEMBER ATTACHED TO THE CIC MAY BE ON ACTIVE SERVICE UNTIL AGE 65. THE MESSAGE WENT ON TO STATE, ACTION ADDRESSES ARE TO TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION TO ENSURE THAT ABUSES OF THIS TYPE CEASE IMMEDIATELY.

4. REFERENCE B WAS ISSUED TO REINFORCE REFERENCE A AND TO END THE INAPPROPRIATE USE OF CIC OFFICERS IN POSITIONS THAT ARE NOT IN SUPPORT OF THE CCM. IN REFERENCE B, DRES STATED, THE AIM OF THIS DIRECTION IS TO MINIMIZE THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS OUTSIDE OF THE CCO ON NON-CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. EVENTUALLY CIC OFFICERS WILL BE USED ONLY IN CHIEF OF RESERVE AND CADETS DIVISION, CADET UNITS, REGIONAL CADET SUPPORT UNITS OR DETACHMENTS, CADET SUMMER TRAINING CENTERS (CSTCS), GLIDING SCHOOLS, SAIL CENTERS, AS STAFF OFFICERS ON PROJECTS OR IN OTHER STAFF POSITIONS THAT CAN BE DIRECTLY RELATED TO SUPPORT OF CIC OR CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. CIC OFFICERS WERE REMINDED THAT IF THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM, THEY SHOULD REQUEST A TRANSFER TO THE PRES

5. HENCEFORTH, CIC OFFICERS WILL ONLY BE USED ON CADET-RELATED ACTIVITIES AND ONLY IN THOSE POSITIONS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH FOUR. NO CIC OFFICER CURRENTLY ON RESERVE SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM (OR FORMER CIC OFFICERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY ON THE SUPP RES OR ATTACHED FROM THE SUPP RES) WILL BE EXTENDED BEYOND THE COMPLETION OF HIS OR HER CURRENT ONE YEAR TERM OF SERVICE. QUESTIONS REGARDING PERMISSIBLE EMPLOYMENT ARE TO BE DIRECTED TO THE DRES STAFF AT DGRC. FURTHER, ALL REGIONAL COMMANDERS ARE TO CONDUCT A STAFF CHECK TO CONFIRM THAT ALL CIC OFFICERS ON THEIR ESTABLISHMENTS OCCUPY CIC POSITIONS AND THAT ALL THOSE CIC OFFICERS ARE WORKING IN POSITIONS THAT DIRECTLY SUPPORT THE CCM. YOUR STAFFS ARE TO INFORM BOTH DRES AND DCDTS OF THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BY 31 MAY 05.THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BE COMPARED WITH EXISTING RPSR DATA TO CONFIRM THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS WHO REMAIN EMPLOYED OUTSIDE THE CCM

 

[armyvern]

There are no such current directive! It is not forbidden to employ CIC officers outside of the cadet program in activities in support of other component or sub components of the CF.

...
See Section 2.8c This is the instruction

CHIEF MILITARY PERSONNEL INSTRUCTION 20/04

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/docs/word/instruction_20_04_e.doc

2.8.c.  CIC.  A mbr of the CIC shall not be employed for non-cadet related activities unless approved by NDHQ/Directorate of Reserves (D Res).  If approved, the mbr may:(1) remain on the strength of their home unit and be att post to the host unit; or
(2) be posted or att post to another unit within the command and control of the CIC.
(3) Mbrs who wish to be employed outside the CIC may request a sub-component transfer to another Res F sub-component.

...

Uhmmmm, as per my posted CANFORGEN below - it IS forbidden unless in very exceptional (AND pre-approved) circumstances.

Your ref quoted above is from 2004 - Not only does a CANFORGEN outweigh it officially, but the CANFORGEN suspercedes it as the most recent directive.

 

[rwgill]

Then we have DAOD 5023-1 (dated 2006) which again makes the "to meet the minimum operational standards if attached, seconded or transferred on consent to the Reg F or P Res" statement.  This outdates the CANFORGEN.

Should it happen, probably no.

Does it happen, yes.  A friend of mine, currently a CIC officer, will be attached posted for a short time.  He has already applied for component transfer but that could take a while.  The position is required to be filled immediately, and he is the only person with the expertise.

 

[armyvern]

Then we have DAOD 5023-1 (dated 2006) which again makes the "to meet the minimum operational standards if attached, seconded or transferred on consent to the Reg F or P Res" statement.  This outdates the CANFORGEN.

Should it happen, probably no.

Does it happen, yes.  A friend of mine, currently a CIC officer, will be attached posted for a short time.  He has already applied for component transfer but that could take a while.  The position is required to be filled immediately, and he is the only person with the expertise.

As already stated NUMEROUS times:

IF attached or seconded to a PRes or Reg posn.

IF NOT - there is NO PT standard.

And, IAW with the CANFORGEN ... the number of CIC seconded to the Pres or Reg F will be ONLY in exceptional AND pre-approved circumstances.

There is ZERO conflict between that CANFORGEN and the DAOD. None. Squat. Nil.

That DAOD does NOT superscede the CANFORGEN - the DAOD amplifies how those CIC officers in exceptional circumstances (as per para5  the CANFORGEN) are to be handled.

 

[rwgill]

Gosh.  All that I am doing is contributing, not arguing. 

 

[armyvern]

Gosh.  All that I am doing is contributing, not arguing. 

I realize that.

It was not for your benefit in as much as it was for the benefit of another who seems to miss the "IF employed with PRes or RegF" in all the refs.

And the bit about "superceeding" was to point out that the DAOD is an amplification on treatment of CIC "during employment in those exceptional circumstances", but in no way "superceedes" the CANFORGEN outlining "the rarity and circumstances in which CIC can be seconded to ResF or RegF posns."

IE:

The CANFORGEN is the direction wrt to legality and authority to second CIC to Res/RegF "when and how" (only in exceptional and pre-approved circumstances); and
The DAOD is "while seconded in those exceptional and rare Reg/Res F posns, a CIC Officer shall ..."

 

[the 48th regulator]

Gosh.  All that I am doing is contributing, not arguing. 

I think then, you will agree, that your information was then disputed by Vern.

That is not arguing, that is called being corrected.

Let's not lose track of things folks, and let passion get in the way of common sense.

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff

 

[gwp]

That is not arguing, that is called being corrected.

Then let's talk about being corrected
These are the current and sole references regarding the employment of CF personnel. CANFORGEN 81/05 only clarifies permitted employment while re-inforcing the definition of inappropriate employment i.e "badge of convenience" and employing people in positions they are not qualified for such as "artillery spotter" with a half-hour brief. 

CHIEF MILITARY PERSONNEL INSTRUCTION 20/04
Administrative Policy Of Class “A”, Class “B” And Class “C” Reserve Service
Date of Issue 1 December 2004, Amendment 3, 24 May 2006
Application This instr applies to all Res F sub-components: the Primary Reserve (P Res); the Supplementary Reserve (Supp Res); the Cadet Instructors Cadre (CIC); and the Canadian Rangers (Cdn Rangs) and to any organization where reservists are serving
Supersession NDHQ Instruction ADM(Per) 2/93, 1 April 1993
Approval Authority CMP
Enquiries DPGP 3-3
Document Content Administrative Policy of Class “A”, Class “B” and Class “C” Reserve Service
References: A. NDHQ Instruction ADM(Per) 2/93, 1 April 1993
B. A-PM-245-001/FP-001 Chapter 19, Class “A”, “B” and “C” Reserve Service
C.  CANFORGEN 032/06 240916Z Feb 06
D.  CANFORGEN 012/06 CDS 007/06
E.  CANFORGEN 013/06 CDS 009/09
F.  CANFORGEN 017/06 CDS 012/06
G.  CANFORGEN 019/06 CDS 014/06
H.  CANFORGEN ON Active Service

The assertion is that employment of CF CIC personnel outside the cadet program is "prohibited" .  Clearly it is not prohibited.  It is approved on a case by case basis by DGRC/DCdts in accordance with the requirements of the service.  CF CIC members are to meet the physical fitness standards when they are so employed.   There are no absolutes here. 

It is prohibited to cross the street when the light is red.  When it turns green you are approved to cross the street.  The CF will do what is in its best interests when it comes to human resources management ... and does.

If you take issue with this point of view ... speak to Chief Military Personnel who is responsible for the policy or DCdts Col Craig Fletcher who ultimately makes the decision.

 

[aesop081]

Where is that "beating a dead horse" emo ?

 

[the 48th regulator]

Then let's talk about being corrected
These are the current and sole references regarding the employment of CF personnel. All previous CANFORGENs etc. are superceded.

CHIEF MILITARY PERSONNEL INSTRUCTION 20/04
Administrative Policy Of Class “A”, Class “B” And Class “C” Reserve Service
Date of Issue 1 December 2004, Amendment 3, 24 May 2006
Application This instr applies to all Res F sub-components: the Primary Reserve (P Res); the Supplementary Reserve (Supp Res); the Cadet Instructors Cadre (CIC); and the Canadian Rangers (Cdn Rangs) and to any organization where reservists are serving
Supersession NDHQ Instruction ADM(Per) 2/93, 1 April 1993
Approval Authority CMP
Enquiries DPGP 3-3
Document Content Administrative Policy of Class “A”, Class “B” and Class “C” Reserve Service
References: A. NDHQ Instruction ADM(Per) 2/93, 1 April 1993
B. A-PM-245-001/FP-001 Chapter 19, Class “A”, “B” and “C” Reserve Service
C.  CANFORGEN 032/06 240916Z Feb 06
D.  CANFORGEN 012/06 CDS 007/06
E.  CANFORGEN 013/06 CDS 009/09
F.  CANFORGEN 017/06 CDS 012/06
G.  CANFORGEN 019/06 CDS 014/06
H.  CANFORGEN ON Active Service

The assertion is that employment of CF CIC personnel outside the cadet program is "prohibited" .  Clearly it is not prohibited.  It is approved on a case by case basis by DGRC/DCdts in accordance with the requirements of the service.  CF CIC members must meet the physical fitness standards when they are so employed.  There are no absolutes here. 

It is prohibited to cross the street when the light is red.  When it turns green you are approved to cross the street.  The CF will do what is in its best interests when it comes to human resources management ... and does.

I am not interested in being dragged in to this tit for tat.

I will reiterate, do not allow passions take over, and assume that someone is attacking.

Clearly, you required me to correct you on that.  Further to that, where was anyone adviocating a complete priohibition of CIC working with groups outside of cadets?  No One.  However, would you agree, that everyone has shown that only with extreme prejudice, can a CIC be allowed to do so?

I think, CDN A hit the nail on the head, and I will reiterate, do not allow passion to cloud your judgement of other posts on this thread.

dileas

tess

 

[armyvern]

...

The assertion is that employment of CF CIC personnel outside the cadet program is "prohibited" .  Clearly it is not prohibited.  It is approved on a case by case basis by DGRC/DCdts in accordance with the requirements of the service.   CF CIC members must meet the physical fitness standards when they are so employed.   There are no absolutes here. 

It is prohibited to cross the street when the light is red.  When it turns green you are approved to cross the street.  The CF will do what is in its best interests when it comes to human resources management ... and does.

Ref the BOLD - which is EXACTLY what we have ALL been telling you since the start of this thread.

"Exceptional cases: pre-approved" ... (as per para 5 of that CANFORGEN)

NONE of which negates the FACT that CIC Officers are NOT subject to ANY Physical Fitness standards (UNLESS seconded to one of those exclusive and elusive RegF or PRIMARY [of which the CIC is not part of] ResF posns) ... also exactly what we've been saying all along.

And again - there's that (I changed to yellow in your ref) "when they are so employed" bit ... EXACTLY the same as that "IF" that you keep on missing.

Are you done yet?

 

[gwp]

Where was anyone adviocating a complete priohibition of CIC working with groups outside of cadets

 

Earlier in the thread it was stated --- there are several directives prohibiting the employment of CF CIC with other components. That is simply not correct.  It was re-stated with an attempted to back it up with a dated CANFORGEN.   

No One.  However, would you agree, that everyone has shown that only with extreme prejudice, can a CIC be allowed to do so?

I know of a CF CIC member who was employed this past weekend in direct support of the RegF and PRes.    It is not a rare occasion.  It is measured and approved. 

It is the "extreme prejudice" of some here that causes the passions to rise.

 

[armyvern]

 

Earlier in the thread it was stated --- there are several directives prohibiting the employment of CF CIC with other components unless under exceptional circumstances and pre-approved.   It was re-stated with an attempted to back it up with a dated CANFORGEN.   

I know of a CF CIC member who was employed this past weekend in direct support of the RegF and PRes.    It is not a rare occasion.  It is measured and approved. 

It is the "extreme prejudice" of some here that causes the passions to rise.

My additions added in yellow font. Re-read all the previous posts and have a gander for yourself.

Unfortunately, what you miss ... is essential to the discussion. NO ONE said it was prohibited. They said it was prohibited UNLESS in exceptional and pre-approved circumstances.

Your earlier ref btw was ammended to reflect that CANFORGEN's direction that I quoted. It doesn't say a damn thing different than the CANFORGEN (which is not cancelled/superceeded btw - else the hyperlink on the VCDS site that I provided in that same post would state such ... just as the links to any CANFORGENs that are cancelled/superceeded do). As a matter of fact, the ref you gave was an ammendment made as a result of that very CANFORGEN - you can even see it listed as a "ref" in your ref.

My "knock head against brick wall" little icon doesn't seem to want to work for me right now -- please pretend it's here:

**~Vern knocks head against brick wall~**

 

[Neill McKay]

Perhaps this is one of those discussions in which everyone should confine his or her remarks to areas in which he or she has current knowledge based on branch and position.

 

[armyvern]

Perhaps this is one of those discussions in which everyone should confine his or her remarks to areas in which he or she has current knowledge based on branch and position.

Neill,

As the Det Comd of a Reg Force Unit who was responsible for ensuring this implementation/verification/enforcement of new policy direction wrt the employment of CIC Officers outside of the CCM only in exceptional and pre-approved circumstances in a certain province ...

I can assure you that I am within my lanes, but - nice try regarding the "Branch" / "Position" bit.  :

 

[the 48th regulator]

And that's a lock.

I see nothing more than a mushy mess of pulp, that was once a dead horse.

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff