CIC Physical Fitness Standards - Split from Transfer from PRes to CIC

[mysteriousmind]

 
That being said, it is desirable and important that as a member of the CF one "looks the part".  After all the aim of the cadet program includes "promote physical fitness".   

Yes, there are some extreme body types

Ive seen often some over 300 pounds CIC, who would never in a million year pass the CF physical fitness test or do the 13km. and if we had to take out all of the  physically-unfit member of the CIC, it would possibly crumble...due to lack of officer.

and as to "promote physical fitness" if you only take whats in the mandatory instruction, it wont be that way that you promote, but this is and entire whole story, and we would go off track of the subject.

 

[gwp]

if we had to take out all of the  physically-unfit member of the CIC, it would possibly crumble...due to lack of officer.

 

That's an uncalled for and unsupportable over statement.  There are extremes across the CF. 

The CIC along with the entire CF is no more or less fit that the Canadian population. And the CF has the studies to prove that. 

 

[Neill McKay]

From being former CIC, I speak in knowledge of cause.

Your comment is a gross exaggeration.  If you're speaking in good faith, I can only speculate that you've served in a very statistically abnormal region.

 

[Neill McKay]

And I continue to stand my ground. a majority of CIC, perhaps not a big majority, but never the less a majority of CIC would not pass the CF express test, It is not required to join in as a CIC and it should be mandatory, after all they are member of the CF and they are officers.

Then I have to disagree as I doubt that you have seen anything like the number of CIC officers necessary to make up a valid sample from which to draw your conclusion.  I recently pointed out in another thread, and will do so here as well, that there are about 7000 CIC officers in the CF.  In my nine years of involvement with the cadet programme I haven't laid eyes on enough of that number to be able to draw any valid conclusions.  But of those I have seen, by no means would I describe a majority as having been of poor enough shape as to be unable to pass the Expres test.

This:

these members stand out to such an extent that they overshadow the fit ones and give an erronious perception that most of the CIC is out of shape. 

is bang-on.  It's human nature to see one representative of a group and form an opinion of the group on that basis.  But such an opinion isn't especially valid or reasonable.

There are plenty of CIC officers that are in good shape, and I would hazard a guess that these form the majority.  I find most of the CIC in this category are former cadets.

The overwhelming majority of CIC officers are former cadets, enough that I would guess that the majority of almost any group within the CIC  -- including the athletes, the average-sized ones, the slightly pudgy ones, and the most out-of-shape ones -- would also be former cadets.  What you're probably seeing is that the younger officers (regardless of background) tend to be in better shape -- a trend that I expect exists all though the adult population both in and out of the Forces.

 

[gwp]

Ok, this has all been a good read,but I have heard that the CFRC is going to apply the CF fitness standard to all new CIC applicants regardless of where they are coming from,civillian or Forces. Is this the truth? I have no idea... but it is supposed to match the current fitness standards of the Forces in all of its elements. Any body heard the same? If it the truth then I will hanker a guess that the enrollment proceedures for CIC applicants will get alot harder to do,and as such the ranks will thin for it. The CIC are volunteers as much as any other element of our Forces, but are drawn mainly from the civil sector for resources..correct? Ubique

They apply the CF fitness standard -- this is the standard
Minimum medical for CF CIC is V4 CV3 H3 G3 O3 A5  Same as for general officers.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/engraph/cfp154_annexEappen1-2_e.pdf

d. meet the medical standards prescribed in CANFORGEN 070/07. Normally, the applicant must have a medical category no lower than V4 CV3 H3 G3 O3 A5. An applicant with a medical category below this standard but not lower than V4 CV3 H4 G4 O4 A5 may be accepted if the command surgeon approves the medical limitations and certifies that any medical condition will not be aggravated by military service;
CATO 23-01 OAIC 23-01
Ch 14/07 2/5 Mod 14/07

 

[Neill McKay]

Ok, this has all been a good read,but I have heard that the CFRC is going to apply the CF fitness standard to all new CIC applicants regardless of where they are coming from,civillian or Forces. Is this the truth? I have no idea... but it is supposed to match the current fitness standards of the Forces in all of its elements. Any body heard the same?

There's been nothing through official channels to suggest that there will be any change in enrolment standards or procedures.

The CIC are volunteers as much as any other element of our Forces, but are drawn mainly from the civil sector for resources..correct?

All newly-entered CF members are drawn from the civilian community.  How could it be any different?  Everyone is born a civilian.

 

[PMedMoe]

They apply the CF fitness standard -- this is the standard
Minimum medical for CF CIC is V4 CV3 H3 G3 O3 A5  Same as for general officers.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/engraph/cfp154_annexEappen1-2_e.pdf

d. meet the medical standards prescribed in CANFORGEN 070/07. Normally, the applicant must have a medical category no lower than V4 CV3 H3 G3 O3 A5. An applicant with a medical category below this standard but not lower than V4 CV3 H4 G4 O4 A5 may be accepted if the command surgeon approves the medical limitations and certifies that any medical condition will not be aggravated by military service;
CATO 23-01 OAIC 23-01
Ch 14/07 2/5 Mod 14/07

Normally, I wouldn't jump into a Cadet/CIC thread as I have never been either one.  Just wanted to point out that fitness standard and medical standard are two completely different issues.  If the CIC is the same (or similar) as the PRes, then why not hold them to the same fitness and medical standards?

 

[gun runner]

Probably because the main applicants are like myself..36 year old former troops who are willing to step up to the plate and give a little back to the organization(s) that helped to get us where we are now. Ubique

 

[gwp]

Normally, I wouldn't jump into a Cadet/CIC thread as I have never been either one.  Just wanted to point out that fitness standard and medical standard are two completely different issues.  If the CIC is the same (or similar) as the PRes, then why not hold them to the same fitness and medical standards?

Where it is required, they are.  It is the same for members of the Sup Res and Rangers

See DAOD 5023-2
CF members are required, unless exempted from evaluation (see the Exemptions from Physical Fitness map), to meet the mandatory physical fitness standard …

Regular Force, Primary Reserve -on an annual basis.

Cadet Instructors Cadre-
Supplementary Reserve-
Canadian Rangers-
on an annual basis if attached, seconded or transferred on consent to the Regular Force or Primary Reserve.

 

[gun runner]

Ok, so hypothetically, a 58 year old former soldier( Pres or reg force) with a bad ticker or shot lungs from smoking all his/her life,or some other affliction, could still get into the CIC if and only if they meet the current physical and medical requirements of the forces enrollment?Not flippin likely! It sounds like the CF is trying to get around the hiring of these types of individuals (older and not in such great shape) in favor of younger and healthier prospects. I was always under the assumption(we all know that rule,right) that the CIC would be staffed by everyday volunteer people( John/Jane Blow ) from the communities that the units reside, and commission them into a sub unit of the primary reserves ( to instill a sense of CF involvement) to eliminate the need for full time involvment of the CF( at the local levels). Am I correct in this assumption? When I was in the cadet program in the 80's, my CO was a mountain of a man, a smoker, probably loved his rye whiskey( who doesn't), and still found the time to sucessfully run a 55 member cadet sqdn. I guess all I am saying is that the general public has about a snowballs chance of ever being able to contribute to these organisations if they do not match the countries largest health clubs standards for BMI and C/V health, for starters. The cadets for me was the next step from scouts, and was the logical one for those of us who chose to pursue a career in this countries armed services. And now that I have the abilities to return the favors to this unit, I find that the corps needs live bodies in uniform and cant seem to find a suitable applicant due to some minor infirmity that would keep me off the battlefield sure, but why I cant teach cadets to march, or map amd compass, or shoot an air rifle while in uniform, is a little confusing to me. It would seem that the CFRC has finally found a way to keep mom and dad from helping little Johnny or Jane in a way like this. Sad really.. just my thoughts. Ubique

 

[gun runner]

I guess I was trying to hard to confirm my frustrarions at the CF for imposing the standards of an organisation on a group of adults who will never see the hallowed ground of a field of combat. It is difficult to think that the leaders of tomorrows leaders are placed in a difficult situation for only attempting to get involved in what they feel is the right thing to do. Maybe the CF should only use former soldiers, sailors and airmen/women to staff cadet units instead of civillian volunteers.Ubique

 

[rage]

Let's do a hault here boys. The orignal post was Transfer from PRES to CIC; I think we may have started a new thread here on CIC fitness standards.

 

[Burrows]

Split from http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/70389.0.html - Transfer from Pres to CIC Officer

army.ca staff

 

[gwp]

Ok, so hypothetically, a 58 year old former soldier( Pres or reg force) with a bad ticker or shot lungs from smoking all his/her life,or some other affliction, could still get into the CIC if and only if they meet the current physical and medical requirements of the forces enrollment?

Yes, if his medical doctor attests to his fitness.

I was always under the assumption(we all know that rule,right) that the CIC would be staffed by everyday volunteer people( John/Jane Blow ) from the communities that the units reside, and commission them into a sub unit of the primary reserves ( to instill a sense of CF involvement) to eliminate the need for full time involvment of the CF( at the local levels). Am I correct in this assumption?

No your are not correct.  First the CIC is not a sub unit of the primary reserves.  The Primary Reserve and the CIC are both sub-componenets of the Reserve Force ... along with the Canadian Rangers and the Supplementary Reserve.  And like the entire CF - members of the CIC are recruited from everyday volunteer people (John/Jane Blow) 

I guess all I am saying is that the general public has about a snowballs chance of ever being able to contribute to these organisations if they do not match the countries largest health clubs standards for BMI and C/V health, for starters ....... now that I have the abilities to return the favors to this unit, I find that the corps needs live bodies in uniform and can't seem to find a suitable applicant due to some minor infirmity that would keep me off the battlefield sure, but why I cant teach cadets to march, or map amd compass, or shoot an air rifle while in uniform, is a little confusing to me. It would seem that the CFRC has finally found a way to keep mom and dad from helping little Johnny or Jane in a way like this. Sad really.. just my thoughts. Ubique

How did you get to that conclusion?  The CF is enrolling people in their 50's into the Regular Force if they meet the medical and fitness standard for their particular MOC. 

 

[gwp]

I guess I was trying to hard to confirm my frustrarions at the CF for imposing the standards of an organisation on a group of adults who will never see the hallowed ground of a field of combat. It is difficult to think that the leaders of tomorrows leaders are placed in a difficult situation for only attempting to get involved in what they feel is the right thing to do. Maybe the CF should only use former soldiers, sailors and airmen/women to staff cadet units instead of civillian volunteers.Ubique

Every member of the CF, including those in the CIC were civilians before they volunteered for the CF. 
About 28 % of Cadet Instructors have RegF experience (an average of 5.3 years)
About 17 % of Cadet Instructors have PRes experience (an average of 2.7 years)
Others are Canadians enrolling in the CF some former cadets but all members of the community at large ... the same recruiting base as the entire CF. 
While administering a cadet corps or squadron does result in a lot of volunteer time, CF members of the CIC are remunerated for their authorized paid attendance.   

 

[geo]

There is a distinction between "medical" fitness AND "physical" fitness.  You can have one but not the other.

Then, there is the fact that, over 55, there are NO physical fitness standards.
CIC are not required to pass a fhysical fitness test - at any time...

 

[gwp]

There is a distinction between "medical" fitness AND "physical" fitness.  You can have one but not the other.

No one would disagree with that.

Then, there is the fact that, over 55, there are NO physical fitness standards.

That doesn't mean you don't challenge the test.

CIC are not required to pass a fhysical fitness test - at any time...

Not correct.  See DAOD 5023-2

Cadet Instructors Cadre-
Supplementary Reserve-
Canadian Rangers-
on an annual basis if attached, seconded or transferred on consent to the Regular Force or Primary Reserve.

 

[geo]

... IF ATTACHED to the Regular force or the Primary Reserve.

Given that there are several directives that forbid the employment of CIC officers within Pri Reserve units, then your comment is a "moot" point.

 

[gwp]

... IF ATTACHED to the Regular force or the Primary Reserve.

Given that there are several directives that forbid the employment of CIC officers within Pri Reserve units, then your comment is a "moot" point

There are no such current directive! It is not forbidden to employ CIC officers outside of the cadet program in activities in support of other component or sub components of the CF.

When it comes to human resources the CF will do what is in the best interests of the CF. There are policies and procedures for component/sub-component secondment, attachment and transfer regardless of the component sub-component. They are found here.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/DAOD/5002/3_e.asp

The moratorium that was placed on CF members of the CIC not being employed outside of the cadet organization was brought about when it was discovered that Primary Reserve Units were employing (and paying) the officers that supervised their affiliated cadet corps inappropriately.  (i.e. a person acting as an artillery spotter after a short briefing.) 

The authority to employ CF CIC officers outside of the Cadet Organization now rests with DGRC/DCdts on a case by case basis. It is approved for short term assignments when it makes sense, where the person is currently active in the cadet program, the cadet program will not be disadvantaged and the person has the required skills/training.  For long term assignments a component transfer from the CIC to the PRes is encouraged the terms of which are negotiable iaw the reference above.

See Section 2.8c This is the instruction

CHIEF MILITARY PERSONNEL INSTRUCTION 20/04

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/docs/word/instruction_20_04_e.doc

2.8.c.  CIC.  A mbr of the CIC shall not be employed for non-cadet related activities unless approved by NDHQ/Directorate of Reserves (D Res).  If approved, the mbr may:(1) remain on the strength of their home unit and be att post to the host unit; or
(2) be posted or att post to another unit within the command and control of the CIC.
(3) Mbrs who wish to be employed outside the CIC may request a sub-component transfer to another Res F sub-component.

 

[geo]

It all boils down to employment in a job they have been trained to accomplish.  Given the limitations to the CICs military training, there are few if any positions outside the cadet movement where they can be advantageously employed.  As stated, requires NDHQ approval for each and every single one - without exception.

Again, the point is "moot" & CIC officers are not required to accomplish a CF Express test as a normal part of their training.