Changes to Clothing Online point system

[1feral1]

All, I've read the entire thread, and just wanted to say feel lucky with what you have, here you don't get anything for free, aside from initial issue for shirts, trousers, socks, ties etc, we must pay for everything, including dog tags. A uniform allowance of $500/yr is added on to ones pay (regular army - reserves get SFA), and it's taxed, but anything one buys is a tax deduction.

Aside from the Reserves entirely tax free pay, a service allowance (not uniform) of about $11/pde night, and a petrol allowance of about $10/per pde (this can vary) is added.

OWDU

 

[SeanNewman]

OWDU,

Until a few years ago we were given money as well, whatever it was a month I don't remember but I don't think it was quite $500/yr.

This new points system is all new, but what makes it confusing is that it is only for some clothing items (the dress-type stuff), everything else you still need to go to the QM to get.

 

[armyvern]

OWDU,

Until a few years ago we were given money as well, whatever it was a month I don't remember but I don't think it was quite $500/yr.

This new points system is all new, but what makes it confusing is that it is only for some clothing items (the dress-type stuff), everything else you still need to go to the QM to get.

When the CUA was revoked circa 2004, I believe that the going rate was $18 (and change) for the gents and $26 (and change) for the ladies. CUA was a Treasury Board Allowance that we received to "maintain and upkeep permanent kit allotment uniforms". Thus, it was for maintaining/replacing DEU as well.

The reason that we changed from a CUA to points was, quite simply, because troops were not using the allowance as intended. They spent it on other things and some would show up to parades in DEU 5 times to small because they just didn't bother to replace it.

Of the millions of dollars paid out to us each year in CUA --- roughly only 1.5 million dollars per year was ever used by the people getting that allowance to replace and maintain their DEU. DEU was only available for purchase via Clothing Stores at that time.

There's a thread on this site somewhere with the actual Clothing Stores Cash Sles expenditures totals vice "CUA paid out" figures in it --- probably started circa 2005 --- when troops were pissed that they were "losing money off their pay every month" because of the "new policy". Unfortunately, when TB asks for validation and verification that an Allowance from the taxpayer is still justified/warranted and the financial data and figures clearly show that only a small percentage of what was paid out in that allowance was "used as intended" --- we lose it. Like all allowances: what the hand giveth, the hand can also taketh away.

 

[dapaterson]

Like all allowances: what the hand giveth, the hand can also taketh away.

And, as always, if you don't like it, talk to the hand.

 

[SeanNewman]

Vern,

None of the points you made are under debate (at least I don't think so), and I can certainly vouch for all of them.  Nobody I knew was spending that money on DEUs; it was just a slush fund that got merged with the rest of their pay.  And yes, everyone griped when we lost it.

Now though, I think the program would get a lot more support if you could just get all clothing on it.  While I make no attempt to speak for the CF, a lot of the conversations I have overheard on the matter seem to suggest that direction.

I'm sure at some point someone has made the decision that there can only be X amount of combats in the world, though...lest they end up on Ebay sold to paintballers.

 

[PuckChaser]

Do you really wear your PT gear when you do PT?!

I don't know about him, but I sure do.  And they are always short on T-Shirts everything.

My unit's approved PT gear is grey t-shirt and grey/blue shorts, so I was using the free one's from Logistik Unicorp.

 

[armyvern]

Vern,

None of the points you made are under debate (at least I don't think so), and I can certainly vouch for all of them.  Nobody I knew was spending that money on DEUs; it was just a slush fund that got merged with the rest of their pay.  And yes, everyone griped when we lost it.

Now though, I think the program would get a lot more support if you could just get all clothing on it.  While I make no attempt to speak for the CF, a lot of the conversations I have overheard on the matter seem to suggest that direction.

I'm sure at some point someone has made the decision that there can only be X amount of combats in the world, though...lest they end up on Ebay sold to paintballers.

During our Army Op Clothing conferences and many WGs ... we discussed moving op clothing to a direct delivery as well; in the earlier thread that I referred to, there were problems with that in that this kit is "operational" and thus controlled IAW with CTAT, ITAR and TB guidelines and directives. There would be no way to control what a troop did with his "old op stuff" when his new stuff arrived ... other than that it would still be on his docs until he physically returned it to Clothing Stores for proper disposal processing; the consensus was: Well, since he's still got to come to clothing anyway to dispose of his old stuff, you may as well continue to stock his replacement kit at that level. 1 trip, no waiting.

The reason that op clothing isn't "stocked or issued" by Logistik is also referred to in this earlier post in this thread by me:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/93024/post-923079.html#msg923079

So, we'd have to pay someone else to do that for us (op kit is manufactured and supplied to the CF by a great many contractors and suppliers unlike our DEU clothing) ... why pay another place to stock and ship on behalf of all those op contractors & suppliers, when the troop is still going to have to come in to clothing stores to properly dispose of the op kit that he is replacing?

That, in a nutshell, is the reason as to "why" op clothing & equipment is not "online".

 

[SeanNewman]

I appreciate the answer, thank you.

To offer you some insight on things from the other side of the fence, the perception is that every time we make our way over there we will be faced with one of a few things:

1. A ridiculously long line because of some course/deployment;

2. We somehow manage to show up the one morning/afternoon per week that there's a sign on the door that reads "Closed for regularly scheduled ___________ (re-stocking, inventory, whatever) as per the basewide e-mail."

3. Being out of the size anyway (or wait in line the whole time to find out not entitled to it anyway).

Not in any way saying that this is the ground truth, just the perception.  I've been to clothing perhaps 100 times in my life, and have personally had those happened to me many times each, but overall it's probably 75% success rate.

 

[armyvern]

I appreciate the answer, thank you.

To offer you some insight on things from the other side of the fence, the perception is that every time we make our way over there we will be faced with one of a few things:

1. A ridiculously long line because of some course/deployment;

2. We somehow manage to show up the one morning/afternoon per week that there's a sign on the door that reads "Closed for regularly scheduled ___________ (re-stocking, inventory, whatever) as per the basewide e-mail."

3. Being out of the size anyway (or wait in line the whole time to find out not entitled to it anyway).

Not in any way saying that this is the ground truth, just the perception.  I've been to clothing perhaps 100 times in my life, and have personally had those happened to me many times each, but overall it's probably 75% success rate.

1. Courses in Gagetown must submit a TSR requesting a "block-booked" appointment for their candidates. Otherwise, we'll have three 90 pers courses showing up all at once ... screwing up their course trg schedules. There is, however, always one counter pers dedicated to those who "walk-in" and are not part of the courses booked in. There should be a sign on the back of his screen (ie: facing you) that states "Walk-Ins Here" ... no need to wait in line behind the candidates, simply walk-up to the staff looking after the walk-ins. CSG Gagetown routinely process circa 1 million more transactions per year than any other location; they are extremely busy just due to the high op & trg tempo at that location - Home of the Army and all that.

2. Closed for "stocktaking" (that's only 2 weeks every third year in Gagetown). If they need to "close" due to unforeseen circumstances, they do cut base-wides. That happened only 4 times during my 3 years there ... and those were due to TF1-07 deployment requiring our full attention over a two day period, the unforecasted deployment of 4ESR to DART duties, the deployment of unforecasted deployment of 2RCR to Op Halo Haiti and another 2 day closure for Hurricane Katrina because we pulled every avail sleeping bag etc to package, load, transport and ship to new Orleans. We never closed for sports days etc. Their hours are 0800-1500hrs daily; their redemanding of stock and filing of paperwork etc happens from 1500-1600hrs; restocking of shelving with kit from the warehouse occurs before they open in the morning.  They are the only clothing stores in the country that is open "to customers" for such a large number of hours each and every day of the week. Folks suffering in Winnipeg can certainly attest to that. Given that CSG Gagetown also routinely goes through 2 tractor trailors full of kit a week at their location ... I think they're doing a pretty good job of it. Perhaps the "perception" would change out there if people realized that that CSG directly supports 8800 personnel and Units of all 3 enviornments as well as having to handle the full initial issue of all Army Op Clothing to all pers of zero trades, officers and all Army DEOs going through it's schools. There's a reason they are the largest Sup Coy in the nation ... and a reason why clothing stores there has 25 people working in it (there are some bases in Canada that don't even have as many Sup Techs posted there as clothing stores Gagetown has working there daily.) Just some "context".

3. They do their best. Remember, you're at a location where there is a 100% inventory turn around each and every week. The depot run comes in to refill us on Thursday afternoon ... thus if we run out of your size on Thursday morning ... 100% every week. That's crazy busy. If the depot in Montreal were somehow located IN Gagetown - life would be grand indeed. But, there's only so much space ... Not sure if these replenishment figures hold now, being that they just moved into B10 where they have larger facilities to work with.

Front counter is 2563: I'll recommend to you what I recommend to everyone - call them first and let them know what you need and your size; they will tell you whether they have any in or not. They will give you an RDD if there's a nil stock occuring. They'll also tell you if it's a "good" time to come down. And, if you don't call first, and there's a course in-house just ask "Who's looking after the walk-ins" if you can't see the sign through the mass of candidates at all the other counters.

Vern

 

[SeanNewman]

Vern,

I almost feel bad now that you took so much time to reply to my response...because I didn't mention that my comments were based on my experiences in Petawawa.

Sorry!

In Gagetown there is only one thing...nay one man...who is everyone's nemesis.

 

[SupersonicMax]

All, I've read the entire thread, and just wanted to say feel lucky with what you have, here you don't get anything for free, aside from initial issue for shirts, trousers, socks, ties etc, we must pay for everything, including dog tags. A uniform allowance of $500/yr is added on to ones pay (regular army - reserves get SFA), and it's taxed, but anything one buys is a tax deduction.

I don't think we have to feel lucky.  It's all part of the benefit package we get as CF members.  You are in a different military, on a different continent.  You can't compare. 

We are entitled to it, therefore we should get it if we ask for it.  If, one day, they decide to go with the "I give you 500$ a year and you buy what you need", then so be it, it'll be part of the pacakge then.  Till then, we are entitled to it and we don't have to feel lucky about getting it.

 

[SeanNewman]

Till then, we are entitled to it and we don't have to feel lucky about getting it.

But can we still gripe about what we think we're entitled to but aren't getting?  Because that makes up about 90% of the conversations I hear at work.

 

[1feral1]

I don't think we have to feel lucky.  It's all part of the benefit package we get as CF members.  You are in a different military, on a different continent.  You can't compare. 

We are entitled to it, therefore we should get it if we ask for it.  If, one day, they decide to go with the "I give you 500$ a year and you buy what you need", then so be it, it'll be part of the pacakge then.  Till then, we are entitled to it and we don't have to feel lucky about getting it.

Ya, and free shipping too. They could charge you a handling fee.

Mate, we all have opinions, and I think its valid to share information for comparing how different countries Defence Forces handle this sort of thing. You telling me I CANNOT compare is BS. I've learned something for how Canada does it.

I think the Cdn system is a bonzer way of going about it, but would I rather get $500/yr, which is taxable income, less 30% to spend in the clothing store? No. I view your system superior. Much more user friendly w/on line svc, and it gets shipped right to your door.

So, in comparison to those who were around with the old CF system, which do you prefer, dealing with points/mail order, or the additioanl income for a uniform allowance?

If this system was adopted here, I would feel lucky, as I would be getting more bang for my buck.

OWDU

 

[SeanNewman]

I am all for learning how other people do things, because we get too fixated in our own worlds.

I'm in the Infantry School but the Armour School might have something to teach me.

I'm in the Army but the Air Force might have something to teach me.

I'm Canadian but an Australian might have something to teach me.

That is very different than implying that "just becauesy ou do something your way doesn't make it right for us".

 

[SupersonicMax]

OWDU:  My point is if you want to compare, you have to take into account everything: pay, medical benefits, retirement benefits, family benefits, allowances, leave, etc.  You can't say we are lucky just from this point, if you get something else that offsets that.

Personally, I would have prefered the 500$ a year.  I would be 2950$ richer today.  Since the introduction of the program, all I ordered is an extra wedge.

 

[scas]

But guys like me, and a few in our shop, we have to order a new beret every few months.

 

[TN2IC]

But guys like me, and a few in our shop, we have to order a new beret every few months.

One for work in the office/meeting.. one for in coveralls..  one for DEU's and one for the car..  ;D

MSE Op S.M.R.T.  ;D

 

[CountDC]

Personally, I would have prefered the 500$ a year.  I would be 2950$ richer today.  Since the introduction of the program, all I ordered is an extra wedge.

Which is why they switched to the points.

I think the current system was a good move.  It would have been nice if they gave notice but figure they didn't in order to avoid the mad dash of people logging in to order things just for the sake of it.  Crappy deal for some but also understandable.  We tend to shoot ourselves.  CUA went because we didn't use it, points reduced and not allowed to carry over because they were not being used.  if we don't properly use the points we have now I have no doubt they will be cut even more.  What is really sad is that I still see people showing up to parade with uniforms that do not fit. If your uniform gets tight order a new one, if it gets loose order a new one.  There is no buy out for your points so stop saving them.

 

[dapaterson]

CountDC:

Which is why the dot COMs and Land Staff have abandonned DEU - it takes too much effort to press shirts, polish shoes, and keep the uniform up to snuff.  In a word, lazy.

Instead, they wear operational clothing, much more expensive to the Crown, and wear out CADPAT pants ass first, from being parked in a chair all the time.


Wouldn't it be nice to see NDHQ back in DEU - since Startop and the Land Staff, despite their illusions, are deskbound, not operational.

Or, barring that, ADM(Mat) should bill the dot Coms and Army for the NP pressure they create by wearing operational clothing all the time.  Because it's seen as free, they exploit it.

 

[CountDC]

yes - that is so much effort. 

But let's not forget the Navy members that have to wear CADPAT simply because they are posted to an Army unit even though they never or hardly go to the field.  How about CADPAT when needed not simply because I want to.