CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Oldgateboatdriver]

We don't talk about certain things to most people, including most in our own community.  This was true on HELTAS, mostly true on the 'A's, and more true on Cyclone.  And its not just capabilities, and its not just passive.

You mean like "Jezebel"? Unless you were a priest or minister referring to the Old testament, just uttering that word in a Halifax bar would get you arrested in the 60's.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The latest from CP, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42) ....

Canada's air force must speed up crew training and the delivery of CH-148 Cyclone helicopters in the next two years to avoid a shortage as five decade old CH-124 Sea Kings are finally retired, says a senior defence official.

A senior defence official has told The Canadian Press they are looking at ways to do both, starting next year.

Concern that the Sea Kings may be phased out faster than the Cyclones have the equipment to be fully capable of replacing them has been around since the former Conservative government announced last June that the old helicopters would be slowly retired by 2018.

The Sea Kings fly off the decks of warships and there is fear that some Canadian naval vessels might have to go to sea without helicopters.

The possibility that the Sea Kings would be pulled out of service faster than they can be replaced is something defence planners are scrambling to mitigate, said the senior official with knowledge of the program.

"We're looking at ways to accelerate the training process to make sure we have enough aircrew available to man the aircraft. And we believe we will," said the official who was not authorized to speak to the media. "We're also looking at having an accelerated delivery of some aircraft in the 2016-17 time frame to give us more aircraft on the ramp in (Canadian Forces Base) Shearwater."

Only four of the 1960s vintage airframes have been retired thus far and the official could not commit to a specific timetable on when the rest would go. The official did say, however, that the decommissioning program was not on hold.

The 28 Cyclones have faced repeated development delays since being ordered in 2004 and are not expected to be fully operational on both the East and West Coasts until 2021.

There are six aircraft at Shearwater, with another two on the way before the end of the year.

Documents, obtained by The Canadian Press under access to information laws, show that in addition to ensuring an overlap between the fleets the road to retiring the Sea Kings will be bumpy.

Many of the setbacks relate to the development of the sophisticated software for the Cyclones that runs everything from flight controls to weapons systems and the documents show defence officials believe not all of the bugs will be worked out by the time the aircraft is declared fully operational.

The software is being introduced in two blocks. The first phase allows the helicopter to fly in a limited capacity including search and rescue, and the second tranche will bring the aircraft up to the full warfighting, submarine-hunting version.

"While Block 2 represents a fully functional, operationally relevant Maritime Helicopter, there is insufficient time within a realistic schedule to inject all remaining Maritime Helicopter Requirement specification elements," said a Nov. 28, 2013 planning document. "Accordingly, it is anticipated that certain capabilities will need to be added during the in-service support (regular maintenance phase), which nominally begins post-Block 2 delivery."

The significance was downplayed by the official who insisted that by the end of the second phase the air force will have the helicopter it ordered in 2004.

One of the significant changes the Harper government allowed was to deem the Cyclone a developmental program, much like the oft-maligned F-35 stealth fighter. That means, as opposed to expecting a fully completed helicopter, the government was willing to accept the risk and delays associated with the trial and error of development.

The official said National Defence believes it has been able to mitigate the risk and the program is on track.

But defence analyst Dave Perry, of the Global Affairs Institute, says the problem of training highlights that project delays are not just an accounting nuisance and they have real consequences.

"On this project, that schedule has been continually slipping further into the future since 2008, which must be presenting a complete nightmare for the RCAF that needs to figure out when it can actually stop training people to operate the Sea Kings and start learning how to use the Cyclone," he said.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The way things are going, there will be a shortage of ships to fly off of.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Article Link

Milestone flight for Cyclone helicopter

News Article / February 22, 2016

By Sub-Lieutenant Patrick McCarthy

Just off the coast of Nova Scotia recently, the sun shone on a milestone achievement for the Royal Canadian Air Force’s CH-148 Cyclone helicopter project.

The first Cyclone helicopter, fully manned by Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) personnel, successfully landed on a Canadian warship at sea on January 27, 2016. Her Majesty’s Canadian Ship Halifax, the ship on which the first Cyclone landing occurred, has been involved with CH-148 testing and training for the past year.

HMCS Halifax began “ship helo operating limits” (SHOL) trials in January 2015 and spent five months working with the Cyclone helicopter conducting tests and trials in order to determine operating limits and best practices for the new helicopter. Recommencing SHOL trials in January 2016, the crew of Halifax were happy to [be] a part of this milestone flight for the RCAF.

“This milestone achievement represents a great step forward towards full integration of the Cyclone helicopter into [Royal Canadian Navy] operations,” said Commander Graham Roberts, the commanding officer of HMCS Halifax. “Halifax has been extremely impressed with the capabilities of the Cyclone over the past year and we look forward to continuing to work with helicopter at sea in the coming months.”

Aircrew and ship’s crew shared similar sentiments. Captain Thomas Munro of 423 Maritime Helicopter Squadron, located at 12 Wing Shearwater, Nova Scotia, was the landing signals officer for the first landing. He said he was excited to be a part of the ongoing integration of the Cyclone helicopter and noted: “This week was an excellent opportunity for pilot force generation and an important milestone in the maritime helicopter project.”

Personnel at the Helicopter Operational Test and Evaluation Facility (HOTEF) at 12 Wing have been working very hard to ensure milestones such as this one are achieved.

“The CH-148 Cyclone landing on HMCS Halifax is a tangible representation of the hard work and foundational effort the Helicopter Operational Test and Evaluation has invested since acceptance of the aircraft. The HOTEF continues to lead the introduction of the CH-148 weapon system by proving the operational capabilities of the aircraft and its in-service support structure,” said Major Travis Chapman, the HOTEF’s commanding officer.

HMCS Halifax will continue to operate with the Cyclone helicopter fleet for the remainder of the winter, conducting SHOL trials and furthering the ongoing integration of the Cyclone helicopter into naval operations.

Sub-Lieutenant McCarthy is a member of HMCS Halifax’s crew.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

good job to all involved

 

[CBH99]

Colin P,

I was thinking that same thing the other day.  When we first started to acquire the Cyclone, I was thinking that 28 helicopters was such a small number that it wouldn't be enough.  (The government of the day did order the absolute bare minimum required, if I'm correct.)

But now, with the way things are looking - I share your thoughts.  At this rate, there may very well be a lack of ships to fly them off of.

 

[jmt18325]

Well, between the frigates, the Resolve, and the AOPS (I know it won't always carry them) there's 18 - 19. 

 

[Baz]

Well, between the frigates, the Resolve, and the AOPS (I know it won't always carry them) there's 18 - 19.

That's not how it is calculated, because ship's in low readiness don't have dets; plus there needs to be ones for training and maintenance.

12 Wing is organized for 15 det equivalents in 11 dets.  That means there are 15 aircraft deployable, but 4 of the dets are two helo dets.  If you do the standard 1 in 4 out the door, it means you can get 1 two helo dets and 2 single continuously, plus a 3 single helo most of the time.

That is where the true numbers come from... to keep two available in a Task Group you need four serviceable,  which means 5-6 embarked.  The numbers let you be able to keep a Task Group available to surge.  Sort of... it's more complex due to the x ships in xx days, y ships in yy days, etc...

Put another few in maintenance, and retain some for training, and you get 28, the minimum.  35 was the original number, to allow for attrition.

However it won't be helos or decks that is the LIMFAC for quite a while, it will be personnel.  In the core sea going trades 12 Wing is currently manned at approx 6 dets, which will be impossible to maintain through transition.  The pipeline will take a while to regen from that.

As well, some of the core det REMARs have been "borrowed" to support trades, some of which were "lost" to CFB Halifax and Shared Services Canada,  so they are short REMARs.  The hope is the size of the maintenance det will shrink to accommodate the difference.

So the Navy has some time to regen decks while 12 Wing builds up manning... the real worry is it doesn't be one a race to the bottom!

 

[CBH99]

Baz,

I know the potential for this answer to be long is high, and I don't want to ask anything that will cause you to fall asleep out of boredom just by typing it.

But you had mentioned various factors, re: manning and organizational issues, regarding the force generation for the CH-148.  Is there any way you can elaborate (Just a bit) on what you mean?

For example, when you say 12 Wing will need some time to build up manning?

I was under the very wrong & simplistic idea that the old Sea Kings would be swapped on a 1 for 1 basis with the new Cyclone as the new airframes came online.  (It's never that simple though, is it?)

 

[Sub_Guy]

All this news about the Cyclone.  I will get excited when we have choppers with a mission suite. 

 

[Baz]

All this news about the Cyclone.  I will get excited when we have choppers with a mission suite.

They have a mission suite; unfortunately it's suffering from some serious issues; quite a few of them are different takes of the same issues Block III suffered from.

Full disclaimer: I am involved in the delivery of the mission suite.  However, I also had been working on the transition to Cyclone well before I retired... literally since last century.

I do hear what you're saying... but almost everyone agrees 12 Wing needs to start the process... it's going to take some work, and not just the mission suite.

 

[Baz]

Article Link

... were happy to [be] a part of this milestone flight...

...The HOTEF continues to lead... the HOTEF’s commanding officer.

Good pickup adding the "be," but the "the HOTEF's" in the article drove me nuts...

 

[Baz]

But you had mentioned various factors, re: manning and organizational issues, regarding the force generation for the CH-148.  Is there any way you can elaborate (Just a bit) on what you mean?

For example, when you say 12 Wing will need some time to build up manning?

It's not just 12 Wing, it's all of them to varying degrees; the RCN is also suffering from similar issues.  The details are different but the theme is the same (it's why when Canada was thinking of the Mistrals my plan was to use them as training ships for a couple of years).

The Wings are FG pipelines, there is a continuous flow of people out the back, to other postings and releases, so there needs to be a continuous flow in the front, through the training squadron and then the ops squadron for advanced FG.  The stated highest priority for 12 Wing is FG, and if you read between the lines, for the RCAF as a whole.  12 Wing has some particular challenges as advanced FG is dependant on the RCN providing sea time.

This shouldn't come as no surprise : it's easy to argue that the Allies number one priority in Jun 44 was FG, even as the assault divisions were crossing the beach.  By Mar 45 all the line units were feeling why...

Two things have created the particular issues for MH:
- waiting for the (on paper) more effecient Cyclone pipeline to start; and not keeping Sea King O&M high enough because "Cyclone is right around the corner"
- blowing the FG stagger for Operation Apollo in the early 2000s

When I first started (finished the OTU at 406 Dec 92) we had around 10-12 det equivalents in 8ish dets.  Now they've officially dropped below 5, although holding at 6 has been problematic for a while.  As I said, the establishment is for 15 in 11.

However, it's worse than that... all three squadrons had robust standards, readiness, and ops cells, which also provided depth of manning to the dets.  We actually kept a small manning pool in readiness.  As well, 406 was more robustly manned (although for back enders maintaining the two aircraft types, A and B, was biting), as was Wing Ops.  All of that was centralized and made smaller in or around 2005 by Op Transform, in order to free up pers for transition.  But it was done too early (to be more precise, delays set in), and  those extra pers were whittled away.

The abortion that started as SCTF also bit into the FG, and planning model, especially for the back end crew.

Unfortunately all of this hasn't resulted in a robust HOTEF either... when I retired last fall they were really at 3 crews (1.5 dets) plus overhead, although I hear they've bulked up.  When I was in HOTEF on OJT in 90-91 we were the same (EH-101 was "coming"), and when I was there in both 98-00, 06-07, and 09-11 the manning was always about the same.

12 Wing Mission Support and Ops Support are also a pressure on manning, and will need to bulk up over time.

So, it us imperative that the 1.1 acceptance goes well, they pull of a mini miracle with OT&E, and they get the pipeline started.  Once they can bulk up the whole issue of capability development becomes easier...

Ediited to add: I remebered a quote from a recent article that illustrates the challenges of FG, albeit from a diffeent fleet.  Ref Espirit De Corps Volume 23 Issue 1 Feb 16 page 3: '... the acquisition o fthe fleet of Chinooks was a rare procurement success in that Boeing deliver the 15 choppers on time and on budget.  In fact, the rapid rate of delivery has to date outpaced the RCAF's ability to train qalified Aircrew.  "At present we have eight and a half trained crew," said 450 Squadron Commander...'

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Once the Cyclones are in service I think you find retention a bit easier, less frustrations keeping the Sea Kings going "just a bit longer" , that would get tiring year after year.

 

[Baz]

Once the Cyclones are in service I think you find retention a bit easier, less frustrations keeping the Sea Kings going "just a bit longer" , that would get tiring year after year.

Probably yes, but it isn't the main pull out the back end.  The reality I've witnessed is get your 3-4 year ops tour, then maybe a 3-4 year training or other Wing tour, so that we can post you to Winnipeg, Ottawa, or maybe even the Expeditionary Wing in Bagotville.

It often felt the whole purpose of the Wing was to provide that back end flow, not to fly helicopters...

A little different for the maintainers, but a certain amount is just "flow."

 

[Eye In The Sky]

maybe even the Expeditionary Wing in Bagotville.

:boke:

It often felt the whole purpose of the Wing was to provide that back end flow, not to fly helicopters...

Not a feeling limited to MH line Sqn's, if that is any comfort...

 

[macknightcr]

Curious to see how the Cyclone project is going to affect newly winged aircrew coming in to the community.  There is a lot of talk concerning careers being stalled for 2-4 more years after receiving ones wings. 

Baz, do you have any insight in to what is happening with the new ACSO's and Pilots being sent to Shearwater or Pat Bay?  Or are these individuals the start of building up the manning within the squadrons?

 

[Baz]

Curious to see how the Cyclone project is going to affect newly winged aircrew coming in to the community.  There is a lot of talk concerning careers being stalled for 2-4 more years after receiving ones wings. 

Baz, do you have any insight in to what is happening with the new ACSO's and Pilots being sent to Shearwater or Pat Bay?  Or are these individuals the start of building up the manning within the squadrons?

I released in Oct and it's a moving target right now, so anything I did say would just be conjecture.  But yes, I think there will be issues.

However, in my experience in the last few years, careers were generally more important than the right people in the right places.  As we talked about in this thread, the pipe has got to keep flowing or it breaks.

On some good news, however; there are two Cyclones at sea right now doing trials!

Link removed IAW site policy

Edited to add: my apologies, I wasn't aware... unfortunately I don't have another link to the pictures.

 

[CougarKing]

Sigh...

Canadian Press

Deck mishap damages miltary's new Cyclone helicopter during testing

Michael Tutton, The Canadian Press

March 8, 2016

HALIFAX - One of Canada's new CH-148 Cyclone helicopters had to be winched off a ship after a small piece tore off while it was being parked, an unexpected problem that sent engineers back to the drawing board.

Access to information documents say a metal ring on the helicopter's nose snapped as crew tried to get it lined up for a tow into a hangar originally designed to hold the vintage Sea King helicopters that are being phased out.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You have a habit of selectively picking parts of an article that 'sensationalize' your post, and leaving out other little important facts such as...

The incident — which wasn't noted in any news release — occurred during testing last year before the former Conservative government announced on June 19 it had accepted ownership of the choppers.

The helicopter was owned by Sikorsky at the time, and a spokesman for the company says the firm took the decision not to fly the aircraft as a precaution and the issue was rapidly repaired.