CH-146 Griffon

[PMars]

439 new deployment role?

What does that mean?

. The 439 Combat Support Squadron at Canadian Forces Base Bagotville, Que., will be expanded and redesignated as an "expeditionary" unit to better support domestic and international operations. In particular, the squadron would support deployments of the military's rapid-reaction Disaster Assistance Response Team.

From a news story on new defence posture. The interesting question to me was why 439 and not 430? I suppose it is because of 439's national rescue role? It does suggest, however, that Griffons will go on interesting deployments in the future.

 

[PMars]

MG, you da joint-integrated-interoperational-combat operations understanding man!  I-BRUH leading to BRUH as MHLH comes on line with an MHLH/BRUH/SOA package of operators, yup....sounds about right.  8)   Don't know what's going to happen with the non-tactical folks, though....  ???

PMars, do you mind if I ask why you started your mission analysis with the CSS squadrons having priority?  To end your analysis with 16 Griffon left over for the combat operators seems a bit strange.  That's a COA that is not at the head of the pack for presentation to CAS or the CDS methinks.
G2G

I started with the CSS and AF requirements as they will probably remain relatively static as part of the national rescue role. The end result, 16, is what struck me as well and is why I posed the question.

Someone posted that 200 Griffons were acquired and this is not so. There were 100, two were lost with 444, leaving 98.

Someone else posted that the "missing" Griffons were going to the Wings course at Portage. Interesting. I posted that possibility last year and was corrected that would not happen. I wonder if the SAR training will be carried out by the contractor, as it is with the RAF, leaving 403 to concentrate on tac helo. It would seem to make sense to transfer the sim to the Wings course as well but I was also told the sim would stay where it is. If the contractor is doing conversion to type training, which 403 used to do, then maybe Portage is the right place for the sim.

Finally, someone else posted elimination of the air res squadrons. I am not sure if that would become a political issue or not. And finally, there is the SERT requirement for up to two Griffons which 427 used to be responsible for. Could that role be taken on by the air res (438) with a flight at Ottawa?


I will look to others to comment and correct the above.

 

[KevinB]

The only reason I posted 200 is in the intial "hype" when the CH135 was being replaced the number 199 popped up in several areas  as the number of airframes being acquired -- the only reason the number stuck with me was it was identical the the intial Bison buy.
  I never expected the CF to get 200 (ish) airframes - and I must admit I may have misses a comment about the other airframes going elsewhere non CF related.





 

 

[Sf2]

The 439 Combat Support Squadron at Canadian Forces Base Bagotville, Que., will be expanded and redesignated as an "expeditionary" unit to better support domestic and international operations. In particular, the squadron would support deployments of the military's rapid-reaction Disaster Assistance Response Team.

That's the first time i've ever heard of that, although I'm not one to really pay attention to what CSS squadrons are doing.  Should they deploy, who would perform base rescue?

there is the SERT requirement for up to two Griffons which 427 used to be responsible for.

Incorrect.  427 doesn't, and never has, supported SERT.

Could that role be taken on by the air res (438) with a flight at Ottawa

Absolutely not

 

[eurowing]

Wow, I was worried someone ran over a small brown dog.  Whew.  ;D

 

[hollywood13]

The only reason I posted 200 is in the intial "hype" when the CH135 was being replaced the number 199 popped up in several areas  as the number of airframes being acquired -- the only reason the number stuck with me was it was identical the the intial Bison buy.
   I never expected the CF to get 200 (ish) airframes - and I must admit I may have misses a comment about the other airframes going elsewhere non CF related.


http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/equip/ch-146/intro_e.asp#top

States the quantity in the CF being 85, and total number of Griffons: 64 in 1 Wing, and 11 in the rest of Canada. Two have been destroyed in crashes in Labrador (1996 and 2002).



 

 

[magnumcharger]

Lets see...As an AVN I've been posted to two TacHel Squadrons, 403 in Gagetown, and 408 in Edmonton.
I much preferred 403, as it was a good Squadron to work in, home every night, and regular hours regardless of working servicing or maintenance.
408 was a much more difficult Squadron to be at, what with the deployments, releases, divorces and generally negative attitude. So much so, that I remustered out of AVN just to get out of the Squadron.
Suffice to say, I'd return to 403 in a heartbeat (but can't, none of my trade there!)

 

[Sf2]

Lets see...As an AVN I've been posted to two TacHel Squadrons, 403 in Gagetown, and 408 in Edmonton.
I much preferred 403, as it was a good Squadron to work in, home every night, and regular hours regardless of working servicing or maintenance.
408 was a much more difficult Squadron to be at, what with the deployments, releases, divorces and generally negative attitude. So much so, that I remustered out of AVN just to get out of the Squadron.
Suffice to say, I'd return to 403 in a heartbeat (but can't, none of my trade there!)

Its pretty difficult to compare a training squadron to an operational squadron.  Of course there's going to be different working hours, varying deployment levels etc....

 

[magnumcharger]

Its pretty difficult to compare a training squadron to an operational squadron.  Of course there's going to be different working hours, varying deployment levels etc....

Quite true.
It all depends on what you want from your job.

 

[Good2Golf]

Nobody should be under the mistaken impression that life at an operational tac hel sqn is a 8-4 job...

G2G

 

[goldwing]

Kelowna Flightcraft has been awarded a contract to train pilots at Portage la Prairie in Manitoba.  Nine CF-412's are being used for advanced helicopter training.  These a/c are formerly known as Griffons as they have had some conversions back to civilian configurations (such as the cyclic) and are getting glass cockpits.  They will be used as lead-in trainers for the CH-149 Commorant and the CH-148 Cyclone, which have glass cockpits.

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/17wing/squadron/3cffts_e.asp

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/17wing/news/releases_e.asp?cat=170&id=764

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Anyone know what "routine access" means?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060914/canada_dutch_060914?s_name=&no_ads=

Canada loans Dutch comrades armoured vehiclesUpdated Thu. Sep. 14 2006 11:29 PM ET

Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- Canada has loaned its Dutch comrades five heavily-armoured Nyala patrol vehicles for use in southern Afghanistan.
And in an exchange steeped in irony, our European ally has offered up flight time on helicopters -- some of which more than likely belonged to Canada and were sold to the Netherlands by the Mulroney government in 1991. ...

While there is no specific exchange outlined in the memorandum between the two countries, the Dutch Defence ministry noted Canadian troops need help getting around the far-flung desert battlefield and have put forward routine access to CH-47 Chinook helicopters.

Gaudet was asked whether it was a formal exchange.

"Yes and no," he replied. ...

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Anyone know what "routine access" means?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060914/canada_dutch_060914?s_name=&no_ads=

Maybe it means when we call for a Chinook we will get one  ???

 

[Scoobs]

NO - the hooks are new off the assemly line

Secondly the CH146 Griffon buy was for 200 airframe -- what happened to the others -- or did the other 100 never happen?

This is my lane as I'm a former D/SAMEO of a Tac Hel Unit.  We never bought 200 Griffons.  We only bought 100.  Two crashed and were unrecoverable.  We reduced our overall fleet (including Tac Hel and CSS) to 85.  The a/c that were reduced were put into storage in Edmonton for a while.  I'm not sure if all were sold to the company doing helo trg, but I know that some were.  The a/c being used in Trenton for backfill for the Cormorant were drawn from this 85 and I believe that most units operating the Griffon had to lend at least one a/c.  The 85 a/c are currently distributed among all Griffon operators in Canada and I will not post numbers per unit so as to not compromise op security.

I'm not sure if anything has been finalized, but a reduction in the number of Griffons will occur when the Chinooks come online as we simply do not have enough pilots or maintainers to absorb 17 Chinooks and maintain status quo for the Griffon.  I know this as I heard this when I was physically in 1 Wing HQ.

What will happen with our Griffons I do not know as I'm currently out of 1 Wg (hope to get back in in couple of years).  Please note that the max velocities spoken of in this thread are exactly that, max velocities.  Aircraft rarely, if ever, fly at their max velocity.  Whether or not the Griffon can effectively "cruise" with the Chinook is up to the operators (pilots) and I'll leave that to them as they're the experts on that one.

 

[peaches]

Why are we wasting military pers and equip to conduct base rescue, should this not be the sort of thing we ASD.  They do not deply outside or within Canada, why not ASD this out.

As for Tachel, this should be an easy solution.  We have assault helos, the Grifs, we are getting heavy lift helos, the Chinooks, lets buy some attack helos and we're done. 

Each brigade gets a Tachel squadron with an atttack flight with 8 helos, an assault flight with 8 helos and a heavy lift platoon with 4 Chinooks.  The Spec Ops squadron gets 8 assault helos and 4 heavy lifters also.  Tarining, establish join tarining squadrons/units with teh RAF, RAAF, Dutch and Singapore militaries that train in the USA.  Or we could set up a Canadian tarining unit in Ft Rucker to train our folks.

Example:

1 CMBG Edmonton, 408 Sqn
2 CMBG Petawawa, 403 Sqn
CSOR Petawawa, 427 Sqn
5 CMBG Valcatier, 430 Sqn

Attack Helos 24+4 spares= 28
Assault Helos 32 +4 spares= 36 (Grifs or perhaps purchase more H92's, do training with 406 Sqn)
Chinooks = 17
Total = 72 + spares for Tachel, doable...  Add the 14 SAR helos and 28 maritime birds is only 123 aircraft, we can do that.

 

[Strike]

peaches,

The guys in Trenton using the Griffon are not doing base rescue.  They are using them for SAR.

As for your example, what about Gagetown?  Each Army base should ideally have access to a tac hel unit.  Although Pet might have a little less acces with 427 now being under the CANSOFCOM umbrella, 400 Sqn is only a quick jaunt away.

Your numbers wrt helos required certainly make sense.  But as cool as it would be to have attack helos, we simply don't have the people (forget the money) to pull it off.  Getting attack helos would mean a reduction in all the other Army aviation support to man this.  The current plan (as I understand it) is to work on getting the Griffon to act as escort for the Chinook when it comes in.

 

[GAP]

Way out of my lane here, but is the Griffon armed, or just supplying an alternate target?

 

[Strike]

Way out of my lane here, but is the Griffon armed, or just supplying an alternate target?

;D

On a serious note, you can put door guns on the thing, and it is a smaller target than a Chinook!

 

[midget-boyd91]

The Griffons are able to support MGs as door guns for protection at all times. Back when this "article" was written the Griffons were being considered for updating arms to include laser target designators... etc. I'm not sure if they are armed ATM, but this might be able to shed some light.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_03/iss_4/CAJ_vol3.4_10_e.pdf

 

[peaches]

peaches,

The guys in Trenton using the Griffon are not doing base rescue.  They are using them for SAR.

As for your example, what about Gagetown?  Each Army base should ideally have access to a tac hel unit.  Although Pet might have a little less acces with 427 now being under the CANSOFCOM umbrella, 400 Sqn is only a quick jaunt away.

Your numbers wrt helos required certainly make sense.  But as cool as it would be to have attack helos, we simply don't have the people (forget the money) to pull it off.  Getting attack helos would mean a reduction in all the other Army aviation support to man this.  The current plan (as I understand it) is to work on getting the Griffon to act as escort for the Chinook when it comes in.

Forgot about YTR, sorry.  With ref to Gagetown, it is a training unit, if we establish co-training with the US Army we would no longer need it, that is why I said 403 Sqn to support 2 CMBG.

Here's another idea, how about consolidating 1Wg on a single base, perhaps Borden or North Bay (NB is under used).  At Borden/NB, with perhaps 28 attack helos, set up an attack helo squadron of 20 a/c, an assault squadron with 20-24 Grifs, and a Chinook squadron of 12.  These three squadrons would support 2 & 5 CMBGs and CSOR, and also conduct type training.  Then stand up a fourth TACHEL sqadron, with the last 8 attack helos and 4 Chinooks out west in Cold Lake to support 1CMBG. By closing down the TCHEL squadrons at the brigade bases and consolidating them on existing airbases we could reduce their need for support services such as fire, ATC, medical, log etc... as these services already exist on these bases.  It is a radical idea I know, and I understand the manning issue, just throwing out some new ideas......