CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split

[jollyjacktar]

An MI is not necessarily a bad thing.  If one were to be held, it might shake some of the shit loose that is hobbling the system by means of identifying what's broken and compelling a repair job.

 

[medicineman]

No argument there...just as long as it points out the likelihood that this guy was hoist by his own petard as well.  Kharma is pretty funky that way sometime.

MM

 

[TCM621]

Recruiting is one of the biggest problems we have had in the last decade. A lot of the press is focused on our aging equipment, and rightly so but even if we got brand new stuff tomorrow we would have a hard time finding the people to use them.

Remember when the government  promised to increase the reg force by 5000 people back in the early 2000s? Vice admiral Buck stood up in the Senate and had to tell the government we couldn't do it. It is even worse now. I would argue that almost all the problems are of our own making. If we keep it up all the Gucci kit in the world won't help us.

The one thing we have always have had going for us was  the quality of our people and training. Yet we are chasing away the most qualified people away with increasingly ridiculous wait times. Our training has suffered for lack of instructors and cost cutting measures such as learning how to use tools or weapons through CBT.

Something has to change and I don't see it happening until someone of sufficient rank stands up and publicly states we can no longer meet our basic commitments.

 

[George Wallace]

:goodpost:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think people may place more hope that a MI will fix recruiting; the expected vice actual results don't necessarily line up nicely.  I would expect it would be CFRG and perhaps several CFRCs that do the initial staffing of the draft.

The letter back to the applicant would acknowledge that timelines are indeed long for some people and then go on to point out all the details the news article doesn't, as well as the ones that posters here have noted (official residence in one province, living in another one).

 

[Jarnhamar]

Almost 500 days and 200 emails (or pages of emails? ). 

Well done CFRC.

I stopped trying to get people to join the CAF (and I was awesome at it)  after I finally got embarrassed enough and fed up with the stupidity from CFRC. 

I've said it before,  I lose someone's memo and Im (rightly) hammered for it.  Whole personal files go missing over there not only endangering peoples persec  but causing people to waste their most valuable resource; time.  Do they get disciplined?  Considering the frequency of mistakes I doubt it.

 

[a_majoor]

It should not be so difficult.

I recall that I was 2I/C for a co-op course 5-6 years ago where we had a cap of 30 candidates for all the units in London. When I spoke to one of the high school counselors, she told me that that her one school alone had 100+ applicants for the program.  So the pool of possible applicants is out there, but *we* are hamstrung in our ability to take advantage of these opportunities.

Stop and think: if one school has 100 willing applicants for Reserve employment, then all the schools in London together probably have enough applicants to fill every reserve unit (1H, 4RCR, 31 SVC BN, 705 Comms) not only to their current reserve establishment strength, but to a full unit establishment (say a 550 man battalion in the case of the Infantry). Since many reservists go on to the Regular Forces, this is a spectacular recruiting pool for them (see Infanteer's comments of 3VP being vastly undermanned in another thread), plus a means of making the Reserves relevant. If we believe that only 1 in 3 Reservists are able and willing to step up to the plate outside of parade nights, then 1/3 of 550 still allows you to realistically carry out tasks like forming a TDB in a Brigade, or man an Arctic Response Company, or do all the other things which *we* say need to be done.

True there are many other issues that would need to be addressed (training facilities and supplies, equipment and O&M for a full battalion, leadership), but the point is we are killing ourselves and strangling both the Regular and Reserve forces by this constant penny pinching and bureaucratic red tape.

 

[dapaterson]

A few thoughts:

One hundred interested candidates does not translate into one hundred folks who are willing to follow through, or one hundred who will pass the physical, medical and aptitude testing.

The authorized strength of the Reserves is less than the establishments of all Reserve units.  Therefore, there is no requirement to fill units.  Therefore, there needs to be prioritization to ensure the proper capability mix is maintained - and not necessarily the sustainment of the existing Order of Battle.

Units are not all of equal value.  Different types of soldiers should be prioritized; if the CAF Reserve is short of basket-weavers, then we should be recruiting basket-weavers, and not trying to fill the Hip-Hop Dancing positions just because they are easier to recruit.  Meaning that the Glorious 76th Bn, Royal Hip Hop Regiment of Burlington ON may not get as large a SIP as the 19th Independent Basket Weaving Platoon of Wadena SK, regardless of their battle honours from the Windsor Dance-Off of 1996.

 

[runormal]

Since many reservists go on to the Regular Forces, this is a spectacular recruiting pool for them (see Infanteer's comments of 3VP being vastly undermanned in another thread), plus a means of making the Reserves relevant.

There have been several potential applicants who have posted on here that "I'm in grade 11/12 whatever and I want to join unit XYZ and then transfer to the reg-f shortly thereafter". Several people (myself included), have told these people not to waste their time because the amount of time it would take to get qualified, and then CT they might as not apply because they will be further ahead applying off the street. Even as an INF -> INF transfer.

I agree that the reserves is a very good recruiting ground. You essentially get to assess someone, get them some courses and hopefully get some ROI if they stay in the same trade/element. Even if they want to change elements after trying it, you have someone who "knows" what they are getting into and hopefully will stay longer than the initial contract.

However if you want to recruit the reg-f from the reserves, you need to be able to hire reservists in weeks and the reserves need to understand needs to be structured in such a way that they will be able handle loosing more people to the reg-f. Likewise CT's need to processed much quicker (should vacancies exist) because if the reg-f won't take them someone else will. I know lots of reservists who want to go reg-f and are waiting on CT's. I also know several who just said screw it, found another a job and released.

I've loved my time in the reserves and met down with several young highschool students (my mom works in education) and I've told them all about the reserves, I try to be as neutral as possible, but I would never tell someone to join the reserves to "try" the army unless they plan on doing full time post-secondary education on the side.

Edit: see strike out

 

[expwor]

Back when I joined the Militia (1979) the Canadian Forces had a program called SRTP (Summer Recruit Training Program) It was targeted at high school students.  I applied May 1979, went through aptitude testing, security screening and PT testing. End of June got told to show up at the Armouries to swear in.
Raised my right hand and took the oath (btw no big ceremony) After swearing in, told the date (before SRTP started) we needed to show up at the Armouries. We were all loaded in vehicles, went to CFB Kingston, and got our kit (web gear 51 pattern) went back to the Armouries and were told how to wear it, including how to shape and wear our berets.
If memory serves, the first Monday after the July 1st holiday we were working...and contrary to the recruiting ads, we worked at least part of our weekends too. We came out of SRTP with GMT (General Military Training) and TQ1 (Trade Qualification 1) Infantryman.
Most members of our SRTP group stayed with the PWOR (Princess Of Wales Own Regiment)
Some joined the Regular Force and who knows, if life hadn't thrown me a curve, I'd likely have joined the Regular Force too
Anyhow posted for whatever it's worth.

Tom

 

[Dale Denton]

Perhaps with a modern fleet that is well equipped and a government that makes joining the navy an attractive proposition as a career and at the same time recognises and honours its military establishment the manpower shortage will disappear.

Agreed. Plus, more public exposure = more awareness of issues = more money.

Why I secretly think Haida should be sail-worthy again...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Huh? We have 7 of 12 Frigates, Asterix, and 4 MCDVs all at sea right now. Tell me again how we can't crew our ships, or that we have very little demonstrable maritime power?

We cannot sustain that tempo with our current availability of fit sea personnel.  Right now pier head jumps are keeping those hulls deployed.

At a very recent divisions one of our Flag Officers stated that we (the RCN) are 700 people short.  That's 3.1 CPF crews manned at 225 pers (as per wikipedia).

That also does not include our staggering amount of unfit sea / unfit alongside yard stanchions holding down shore postings.  That number was hinted at being about the same as the above statistic.

 

[MilEME09]

We cannot sustain that tempo with our current availability of fit sea personnel.  Right now pier head jumps are keeping those hulls deployed.

At a very recent divisions one of our Flag Officers stated that we (the RCN) are 700 people short.  That's 3.1 CPF crews manned at 225 pers (as per wikipedia).

That also does not include our staggering amount of unfit sea / unfit alongside yard stanchions holding down shore postings.  That number was hinted at being about the same as the above statistic.

So in theory you need more then 700 probably more like double that?

 

[FSTO]

We cannot sustain that tempo with our current availability of fit sea personnel.  Right now pier head jumps are keeping those hulls deployed.

At a very recent divisions one of our Flag Officers stated that we (the RCN) are 700 people short.  That's 3.1 CPF crews manned at 225 pers (as per wikipedia).

That also does not include our staggering amount of unfit sea / unfit alongside yard stanchions holding down shore postings.  That number was hinted at being about the same as the above statistic.

This is a direct result of a broken recruiting system. A system that seems to be unable to get out of its own way and a double wammy of focusing recruiting on groups of people who seem to have no desire to join in great numbers. I have no idea how to get more women, first nations and POC's through the door that isn't already been done. Unless we get Michael Bey to make a movie about our Navy fighting aliens (hey we could get HMCS HAIDA off the wall just like USS MISSOURI!) off the Toronto waterfront. That might spur some recruitment! Who knows? None of our other campaigns seem to work. :rofl:

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This is a direct result of a broken recruiting system. A system that seems to be unable to get out of its own way and a double wammy of focusing recruiting on groups of people who seem to have no desire to join in great numbers. I have no idea how to get more women, first nations and POC's through the door that isn't already been done. Unless we get Michael Bey to make a movie about our Navy fighting aliens (hey we could get HMCS HAIDA off the wall just like USS MISSOURI!) off the Toronto waterfront. That might spur some recruitment! Who knows? None of our other campaigns seem to work. :rofl:

My brother has been waiting months to get in to the Navy as a NESOP.  He is 30 years old, supremely fit and wants to get stuck in.

The recruiting centre had some issues with a couple of tattoos he has and have been giving him the run around with waivers for the past four months.

It is absolutely unacceptable and I'm considering making a phone call to someone.  He is getting fed up and is probably going to look elsewhere soon if he doesn't hear.

 

[donaldk]

This is a direct result of a broken recruiting system. A system that seems to be unable to get out of its own way and a double wammy of focusing recruiting on groups of people who seem to have no desire to join in great numbers. I have no idea how to get more women, first nations and POC's through the door that isn't already been done. Unless we get Michael Bey to make a movie about our Navy fighting aliens (hey we could get HMCS HAIDA off the wall just like USS MISSOURI!) off the Toronto waterfront. That might spur some recruitment! Who knows? None of our other campaigns seem to work. :rofl:

Oh the internal bullshit within CFRG is absolutely nigh which was showcased with their stupid ever changing qualification policies for their post-in positions (which apply equally to NAVRES NRD recruiting positions upon post-in).  It was news to me when I suddenly found out yesterday that the coursing/OJT omnibus TD for a potential File Manager was no ******* good without a lengthy 2-3 month OJT at a CFRC det (closest one 700km away).  This essentially led to one of my PRes mbrs pulling the pin on taking a 3 yr contract in any recruiting position ever due to CFRG's ineptness with it's training program.  Shortly thereafter, I nominated him for an upcoming vacancy in my RSS pool since he is a VERY hard worker that didn't deserve the ******* around he got from CFRG (and raised my three fingers in the direction of Borden and Toronto for them to 'read between the lines').  Someone at CMP needs to wake up to the morning coffee and take the damn hint that when both major PRes orgs (CA and NAVRES) have or are implementing measures to make CFRG obsolete they should just chop the head off the dying horse that is CFRG/MILPERSGEN. As for someone's staffing suggestion that came out-of-line from the south end of the province...  I will enjoy my popcorn when PCC Quebec goes grenadier on the originator  :Jedi:

Back to the thread topic on CSC... crewing concept wise, yes, certain recruiting intake projections are in the project scope for its analysis phase but my rant and the others above mine specific to CFRG issues might need to be split into another thread...

 

[Czech_pivo]

A lot of talk has been about low crew levels and inability to staff the current (larger?) fleet size.  Out of curiosity, what, if anything, would an across the board 10% pay raise in the navy (and entire armed forces) for all ranks below, say Captain (or say Colonel in the Army/Air Force).  Would this do anything at all in addressing low recruitment numbers and retention.  I read a lot about creating new opportunities and better accommodations on the new ships coming online in the future, but nothing at all about salary/compensation.  Interested in knowing if this would address the issue of not enough crew.

 

[dapaterson]

CAF has better retention than most allies.  Problems are mostly with training pipeline to OFP, not with recruiting (some occupations excepted).

 

[blacktriangle]

My brother has been waiting months to get in to the Navy as a NESOP.  He is 30 years old, supremely fit and wants to get stuck in.

The recruiting centre had some issues with a couple of tattoos he has and have been giving him the run around with waivers for the past four months.

It is absolutely unacceptable and I'm considering making a phone call to someone.  He is getting fed up and is probably going to look elsewhere soon if he doesn't hear.

Really? If I may ask, is it location or content they have an issue with? It's not like there are no NES Ops with tattoos...

 

[Halifax Tar]

So in theory you need more then 700 probably more like double that?

More than likely.

I am not sure why my post was moved out of its original thread.