CANSOFCOM Search and Rescue?

[Good2Golf]

PJ's are pretty capable in their own right (maybe not the vet stuff 18D's have.)  Just spoke with some PJ's from 33 EMQS from Okinawa currently stationed in Kandahar flying the HH-60's.  These guys aren't just medical folks (you guys know that already) but they are some pretty kick-behind, dare I use the term, "operators"...I hear they have pretty good aim with the M-240 in the Hawk.  Discussions with their CO indicate they're pretty raring to get in the game with our guys in theatre and maybe some of our guys permenantly in KAF could go over and see them.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[JANES]

There's no doubt they are switched on.  It's tough being a jack of all trades as they are.  Its hard to master them all.  So they have to streamline.  They don't need to know clinical patrol medicine.  They don't have to treat crotch itch and soar backs.  But they do have to treat trauma.  So they get cool skills like suprapubic needle cystotomies and things like that, but don't have to know how to identify giardia in feces under their field microscope like an 18D, though those dudes have the trauma skills too, their courses is a lot longer than a PJ's medical phase.  All in all, both excellently trained soldiers, just very different jobs.

 

[Kev T]

Check out this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0eso2CsKjw&search=Pararescue

I don't think this has been posted before. Gives you an idea of what Pararescue is all about. Bit different from SAR Tech I'm afraid. It would just make my day if CANSOFCOM came out with a PJ outfit that did this sort of stuff.

 

[big bad john]

Switched on video.

 

[Zoomie]

So apart from carrying weapons and carrying out squad tactics, what did they do different from our boys in Orange?  All the technical skills that the USAF PJ's conduct are pretty much one in the same for our SARTechs (eg. SCUBA, ice climbing, para, boat hoists, water rescue, etc).

That video just further reinforces what Gully was saying earlier - most ex-combat arms SARTechs would most likely be the best candidate for a PJ-type SF dealio.  Sorry Gully - resistance is futile, the army will re-assimilate you!

 

[Journeyman]

So apart from carrying weapons and carrying out squad tactics, what did they do different from our boys in Orange? 

I agree that the common, non-tac skill sets are there. But you just know that the equivalent "high-speed SAR Tech" video would have the background music by Gordon Lightfoot or Shania Twain 

 

[Good2Golf]

I agree that the common, non-tac skill sets are there. But you just know that the equivalent "high-speed SAR Tech" video would have the background music by Gordon Lightfoot or Shania Twain 

:rofl:

Don't forget Sara McLaughlin or David Foster... :brickwall:

In all seriousness though, I don't see why the SAR Techs couldn't serve as a basis for our own capability...I think it's exactly the kind of capability that Gen Hillier is expecting folks along the chain to put up as clearly contributing to ops primacy.  Perhaps start small, send guys on course and do small unit exchanges, etc... I honestly think that a provisional capability (i.e. a few guys) can be a go in as little as 9-12 months.  I think CSOR would be a great spot for them.  They'd get regular support from 427 SOAS, especially all being under CANSOFCOM...

I'd happily work with CanPJ's when I come back here!

Huah,
Duey

 

[Journeyman]

I tried arguing this point several years back. I was told by the CAS at the time that it would never happen because the CAF could not support the CSAR "system," by which he meant the close air support, the air superiority cover, a combat-suitable helo platform, and some on-scene C2 bringing it all together - - he was thinking only in terms of airframes...and still situating its employment within a Cold War scenario.

He was correct in emphasizing the mission requires more than merely changing SAR costumes from orange to cadpat. Perhaps our transformation-driven new world order is more amenable to considering the possibilities....

 

[JANES]

Where do you expect to get these SAR Techs?  I'm sure there would be a fair share of volunteers, but who is going to fill the void.  They can't even keep up with retirement attrition right now, and you guys think they are just going to let a few more go to do the CSAR thing?  Will never happen.

 

[kj_gully]

CSAR will end the domestic SAR tech. half our trade will leave, the money will be way better, for sure. Reserve sartechs will have to man the home front if the Airforce wants to keep it, and the operational boys will be assigned to overseas duty, along with reserve call ups . That's kinda the way they do it down South the way I understand it.

 

[JANES]

Reserve SAR Tech's?  Am I missing something here.  I thought there was only one, in Gander.  How long do you think it would take to train enough reservists to operational SAR Techs, including Team Leaders?  This is quite a fantacy, especially if you talk to the CSOR "officials" and they say that CSAR may be a task of the DA or SOF company, but there are no official plans any other direction.  And if by chance there may be, it does not involve the SAR Tech trade.  This keeps getting revisited because someone wants that free ticket in there, but I'll say it again.  It's not going to happen.  Lets keep it real.

 

[Good2Golf]

Reserve SAR Tech's?  Am I missing something here.  I thought there was only one, in Gander.  How long do you think it would take to train enough reservists to operational SAR Techs, including Team Leaders?  This is quite a fantacy, especially if you talk to the CSOR "officials" and they say that CSAR may be a task of the DA or SOF company, but there are no official plans any other direction.  And if by chance there may be, it does not involve the SAR Tech trade.  This keeps getting revisited because someone wants that free ticket in there, but I'll say it again.  It's not going to happen.  Lets keep it real.

???

I don't think it's fantasy at all...I was talking with someone well up that chain two days ago about some of the other capabilities that can be brought into theatre...I and my LCol discussed exactly that issue.  By "not official" I would agree with you that there hasn't been any "paperwork" start on the issue...discussion, however....that's a different thing.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[kj_gully]

;D

 

[Good2Golf]

Gully, come to the dark side...glossy yellow and red aircraft will cramp your stylin' 'tivities!  You want to op out of something that's painted (or will soon be painted) IR-flat black! 

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Zoomie]

  It's not going to happen.  Lets keep it real.

That's a pretty bold statement to be making - General Hillier, is that you?

Let's re-watch that USAF PJ movie and you tell me what other trade is even close to achieving that skill-set with little advanced notice?

I prefer a level field when it comes to these discussions, fill out your profile and we can discount the thought that you are a 12 year old with opinions about the CF.

 

[JANES]

Where is this immediate requirement coming from?  From the new operational tempo?  This immediate requirement, though it exists has never been officially stated.  We don't have planes falling out of the sky over the desert.  I'm not saying it's not going to happen tomorrow.  I've never heard any brass say, "oh my god, we need PJ's right now!".  Its not something they are going to develope in haste.  Duey even stated the US PJ's on the ground are eager to work with the CDN's.  Thats who's been watching our back so far. 

I ask you again, who is going to fill the void, when they grab half the SAR Techs and send them off to war.  The trade is red, under manned, and that is holding only domestic SAR requirements.  I'll tell you who else will be able to fill the bill in short amount of time.  (besides the USAF PJ's)  The guys that would do it if that requirement arose tomorrow, or today;  DHTC, CSOR SOF Coy, also known as...well you get my point.  Those are the dudes that are going to deal with it, while they sort out the capability properly, not in haste.  If however, by some miracle, they say, ok SAR Tech's who was in the infantry?  Ok you guys dig out your CADPAT, here's a C7, you remember how to use it?  No?  Thats ok, I'll show you on the plane ride into Kandahar.  If that happens.  I'll eat my hat. 

 

[Good2Golf]

There IS an immediate requirement in theatre as borne out by the fact that there are PJ's here now.  They just don't rescue fighter pilots you know, Janes...they are an effects-based provider of PR capability, and also contribute recovery capabilities to QRF forces here.  They are, however, dealing with an op-tempo themselves that will not support the USAF CSAR cap in theatre forever...other folks will have to step up and provide the capability (or do without?) if/when the American forces pull out of MNB(S).

Let's just say "if" (although I think it's a "when") CF aviation comes to K-har, either for it, itself or the TF, there will be a need to recover CF and other coalition force personnel in the AOR and given that the area is not always permissive, PJ-like cap is clearly in line with the CONOP of the current cap within TF Knighthawk.

I will not dispute that the SAR Tech trade may be in a hurt locker...however, so are lots of other trades and occupations as well.  If people did not have vision and look to the future requirements and say this is a valuable capability, lets find a way to provide and sustain it in operations, then I would say we're not doing things right.  If, on the other hand, folks are content to say it's only a nice to have, let someone else always provide the capability, not us...well then, I suppose you get what you get.  Perhaps the SAR Tech trade is in a hurt locker because there's only so much of doing the same thing (overall, I know that each rescue is challenging in its own right) and that having something else to do within an expanded community would make for higher retention of those in the group?

Not having worked with SAR Techs in Canada and only having seen things from here in Afghanistan and talking with coalition PJ types, perhaps I am not seeing things correctly.  I would like to think, however, that my assessment is correct that such a capability, a Canadian capability, is not only a good thing but a necessary thing as part of a well trained and well equipped force.

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Journeyman]

I guess the grass will always be greener elsewhere.....

When I was a SAR Tech, the PJs wanted our job because the civie-rescue role meant we were usually busy with real missions. Many of us, predominantly ex-Cbt Arms, wanted their's because they were doing Combat Rescue. Back in the '80s however we had a large number of SAR Techs who simply could not have done the PJ role. They were the old RCAF-bred, "SAR is just a fancy Safety Systems Tech or Medic," for whom PT was just a nasty rumour....with all that that mindset entailed.  Mind you, that did create some good situations - when we started doing trials on steerable reserves and square chutes, for example, it was "you new guys do that." "Fine by me"   That started changing for the better in the early-80s, with the influx of new blood - - perhaps arrogantly, infantry, engineers, and clearance divers.

My primary motivator for leaving the trade when I did was simply seeking other challenges.1 It got to the point that I was doing dopey things (hmmm.....how can I do a back-flip off the ramp without getting tangled in the static-line....)
Having a PJ-type role would certainly have kept me around longer.

When I left SAR, coming back to the army via UTPNCM, there was some minor debate on a requirement for SAR officers, which garnered a resounding "NO!" With the PJs creating a Combat Rescue Officer classification in 2000, perhaps this too may be revisited, but that would be another thread.

-------------------
1 It's been pointed out elsewhere that I have "career attention deficit disorder"; every few years, I get bored and remuster/reclassify 

 

[JANES]

I will not dispute that the SAR Tech trade may be in a hurt locker...however, so are lots of other trades and occupations as well. 

That maybe so, but what other trade has only 140ish members and has to hold a SAR capability for all of Canada (hows that for an AOR?)  24/7/365.  How's that for an operational tempo.  What makes the overseas requirement more important than the domestic one to take away the capability at home, and the safety of all the domestic aviators and mariners and hikers and hunters etc in Canada? 

I'm just playing devils advocate here.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge supporter of gaining this capability in the CF.  I think we just need to look at it realistically. 

 

[kj_gully]

Me too. I guess my fear is Ottawa ( that's Cf speak for "the man") will/is blowing off the requirement to rescue Duey's unfortunate comrade with a SAM in the exhaust, thinking they'll cross that bridge when they get there. JANES guys are busy, and though not the type to turn down a hot mission, are probably busy enough  bandaging up their own guys. Now it is probably best to task this to a CAN PJ, who does not exist. No arguement from me. Lots of our guys will switch to the cool new trade, and domestic SAR as a CF trade will take  a fatal hit. Give the task to SAR Tech, Duey sees orange Cadpat overseas, and they close the 4 man SAR det in Goose Bay,Bagotville and Cold Lake. The 12 billets in the Combat Support role could be "allocated" to Can sof, and a couple of those troops would go in the atts and dets section of the "Op Duey Repat" patrol orders, obviously along with a lot more ass kickin, gun totin, CSOR dudes. I dunno, maybe that's better than nothing. I know there's lots of troops that can do this besides "my" guys, I just don't want anyone thrust into it last minute and half assed like usual.