CANFORGEN on Pay and PIL

[George Wallace]

WOW! Is that the way we're expected to treat our people now?

If you don't like the questions just shut them off.... it's attitudes like that from the Admin staff that has our Jr NCOs so upset. As a Sr NCO I have to bring some resolution to things. This is what leaders do. We support our people to meet the needs of the CF.

Ignoring points because you don't want to deal with them isn't exactly in keeping with our proud military customs.

When you registered today, did you do your due diligence as a Snr NCO and read the required joining instructions?  Did you notice that this is not an "Official DND or CAF" site?  Do you think that unofficial statements posted here will hold any authority in your workplace?  I might also point out that many of the members of this site may/often do outrank you, so tone down your sense of entitlement/authority/superiority.

 

[brihard]

WOW! Is that the way we're expected to treat our people now?

If you don't like the questions just shut them off.... it's attitudes like that from the Admin staff that has our Jr NCOs so upset. As a Sr NCO I have to bring some resolution to things. This is what leaders do. We support our people to meet the needs of the CF.

Ignoring points because you don't want to deal with them isn't exactly in keeping with our proud military customs.

I'm a senior NCO too. From the outset I've only ever been told by higher to expect these payouts to potentially take a considerable amount of time, and that's what I communicated to my troops.

There is a finite number of people processing these files, and a great many to process. And this is only one of myriad administrative demands the CF faces that require adequate staffing from an inadequate pool of personnel.

Speaking as an admin here for a second, I see no need to lock this thread. Other admins may disagree. I think it serves more value as a source of accurate information, and once in a while as a forum for one person to say to another 'give your head a shake'.

 

[Jungle]

As a Sr NCO I have to bring some resolution to things. This is what leaders do. We support our people to meet the needs of the CF.

I can see your Troops being frustrated if you told them about the assumptions you made above:

Lets do some math:
- approx 20 pay clerks in the cell
- 4 months of work (20days*4months) = 80 days
- 1600 man days (80*20) or 12800 man/hrs
- approx 75,000 CF Mbrs
- Suppose half applied = 37500
That means that so far .341 hrs should have been invested per member (on average).

Are you telling me it takes more than 20 minutes per mbr to do a review when the Local ORs have already assembled the files?

"Yeah, the sarge said it only takes 20 minutes per file... WTF are these clerks doing with my money over there ??"

Lead by example; be patient, and explain to them that they should be too.

 

[George Wallace]

Just back to this one:

Several of them put in their election on the first day back in December and were thinking they'd be at the top of the pile when payments begin.

Many have done that prior to Christmas, and had to redo them in the New Year, so that top of the pile is quite large; probably in the number of 60K. 

I have been lucky to have a couple of very knowledgeable RMS Clerks brief us as to how, when, etc. the process will be carried out and how priorities are set depending on the members circumstances.  Suffice it to say, anyone anticipating their PIL payout to be in close proximity to 1 Apr 2013, should go and buy a Loto ticket as well.  Their dreams are unrealistic at most. 

 

[AirDet]

You guys really miss the point of forums. They are for discussion. I love your assumptions that I told my guys the math above. If you think they haven't run the numbers themselves then you've truly underestimated the intelligence of those coming in to the service these days.

My comments above were only my opinion as a Canadian citizen. What I say while in uniform is always supported and IAW policy.

Perhaps if the Admin branch understood the pressure (spousal or otherwise) our members are feeling they wouldn't be so callous. Perhaps if they explained how many steps each file must go thru...

I can tell you that one of the best leaders our service has had in the last few years was Rear Admiral Buck. He wasn't popular with the admin branch because he demanded they treat CF mbrs as people.

 

[George Wallace]

If you haven't told them the math, perhaps you should.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

This fiasco appears to be a product of the same wizards that brought us the Reserve Pension :

I can definitely relate to this statement.

Right from the start I put myself in the boat that it would take a long time and to not even have it in my mind to expect this money until 2014 and beyond, this way if it does somehow come earlier it's a nice surprise.

The sad reality is that even after all of the briefings and discussions that were given to the clerks and then passed onto us information was still incorrect.  It's to be expected though due to the very large nature of this entire undertaking.  Example: Member has 10 years service but a 5 day break at roughly the 5 year mark because of a transfer from the RegF to the PRes and the dates didn't match up side by side.  We were told that the member would still get the full 10 years for their PIL because only the few days in between would not be counted.  Unfortunately this turned out to be wrong and all service prior to that break is now lost because the exemption for a break in service (ED&T etc.) did not apply.  Still looking into this, but the end result is that everyone needs to be patient and understand the significant workload there could be in processing and understanding all pieces of the jigsaw puzzle.

 

[brihard]

You guys really miss the point of forums. They are for discussion. I love your assumptions that I told my guys the math above. If you think they haven't run the numbers themselves then you've truly underestimated the intelligence of those coming in to the service these days.

My comments above were only my opinion as a CF member. What I say while in uniform is always supported and IAW policy.

Perhaps if the Admin branch understood the pressure (spousal or otherwise) our members are feeling they wouldn't be so callous. Perhaps if they explained how many steps each file must go thru...

I can tell you that one of the best leaders our service has had in the last few years was Rear Admiral Buck. He wasn't popular with the admin branch because he demanded they treat CF mbrs as people.

So it does not suffice to tell them 'because of how the system works, it may take a year or two to get this'? And our troops aren't big boys and girls who can tell their spouse 'we'll see this money when we see it, and not until then'? When a shortage of clerks is causing the CF to hire infantry reservists on Class B to process pay in lieu of severance, perhaps it's inappropriate to dump blame on the 'admin branch'.

I assure you I'm well aware of the intelligence of our troops, and I sure as hell get the point of a forum. Not among the points of a forum is to have a place where you can dump your thoughts and not have them challenged if other equally informed members think you're missing something.

 

[AirDet]

You know George, I think that's all people want to know... those steps you spoke of. People know it won't happen over night. They're just trying to understand the process. I guarantee 90% of the frustration would vanish if someone explained the whole process to them. If payments take 2 months or 2 years most people would be ok with it as long as they understand why.

That in a nutshell is all I'm trying to say. The suggestion by one of the posters that they're tired of reading this post so it should be shut down shows complete disregard for our people.

 

[AirDet]

Not among the points of a forum is to have a place where you can dump your thoughts and not have them challenged if other equally informed members think you're missing something.

Agreed. But it does go both ways.

 

[stokerwes]

I think pers with straight time be put in priority files to be processed first. Then pers that have a little more complicated situation will be looked after a little more quickly, and by quickly I don't mean two months from now.
I think the biggest dissatisfier about this whole evolution is that they had already sent out the time served (like a convict ) calculations. If people had issues they could bring them to the BOR and get it sorted out. But if someone, for example, has served 24.36 years consecutively as it states on the calculation that was sent out I really don't see the need to reevaluate that yet again if it is already complete. I am not sure why or where this three year time frame has come about. It may be the fact for a few complicated situations, and yes the reserves are going to be a majority of that group, but the majority of RegF and Class B/C members that have unbroken time are a straightforward calculation.
Years ago my pay was audited. The first audit came out I owed something like $75.00 I asked to have it checked again. The second audit ended up the CF owing me around $700.00, so a third audit was done because of the large discrepancy and the third audit showed I was owed $1200.00. Then my file was yet again audited by a "Tiger Team" and they discovered I owed the CF $75.00. I paid and it was done with. The point I am trying to make is that the original audit was the same as the fourth audit the only difference was that it took three more times to get there. I find the CF likes to overcomplicate things when it comes to pay.
If the initial time calculation is/was correct it should be a simple matter of placing the time served into the formula along with your monthly pay rate on the cut off day and a review by senior staff and then your money should show up in the bank.
Last I have heard is that just a bit more than 30% of CF members elected for PIL. As most either had too little time in for it to be any great amount, or they were getting close to retirement and knew they would be getting it soon regardless if they applied for PIL or not.

 

[George Wallace]

I can definitely relate to this statement.

Right from the start I put myself in the boat that it would take a long time and to not even have it in my mind to expect this money until 2014 and beyond, this way if it does somehow come earlier it's a nice surprise.

The sad reality is that even after all of the briefings and discussions that were given to the clerks and then passed onto us information was still incorrect.  It's to be expected though due to the very large nature of this entire undertaking.  Example: Member has 10 years service but a 5 day break at roughly the 5 year mark because of a transfer from the RegF to the PRes and the dates didn't match up side by side.  We were told that the member would still get the full 10 years for their PIL because only the few days in between would not be counted.  Unfortunately this turned out to be wrong and all service prior to that break is now lost because the exemption for a break in service (ED&T etc.) did not apply.  Still looking into this, but the end result is that everyone needs to be patient and understand the significant workload there could be in processing and understanding all pieces of the jigsaw puzzle.

So?  Imagine my surprise to find out that I am only entitled to 2 out of the 8 years as a Reservist, because I already have a pension for 28 years service as a Reg.  30 years is the max number that anyone is entitled to.......And yes, recceguy is probably correct in his deductions of whom is responsible.   

 

[dapaterson]

So?  Imagine my surprise to find out that I am only entitled to 2 out of the 8 years as a Reservist, because I already have a pension for 28 years service as a Reg.  30 years is the max number that anyone is entitled to.......And yes, recceguy is probably correct in his deductions of whom is responsible.   

Incorrect.  Your 28 year pension is irrelevant.  Your 28 years of previously-paid severance, on the other hand...

 

[jollyjacktar]

For those of us who are taking 50% our PIL has been processed at the unit and it will be in the bank at the end of this month. 

 

[Halifax Tar]

Incorrect.  Your 28 year pension is irrelevant.  Your 28 years of previously-paid severance, on the other hand...

He would have received his severance for his 28 years of previously-paid severance upon release from the Reg Force, no ?

 

[AirDet]

For those of us who are taking 50% our PIL has been processed at the unit and it will be in the bank at the end of this month. 

That's exactly the sort of thing our people would love to her from the CofC. People just want to know that the system is moving forward.

 

[dapaterson]

He would have received his severance for his 28 years of previously-paid severance upon release from the Reg Force, no ?

Yes - I'm just pointing out that it's not the 28-year pension that disqualifies him, it's the prior receipt of severance for those 28 years.


Pedantic, but precision is important.

 

[DAA]

That's exactly the sort of thing our people would love to her from the CofC. People just want to know that the system is moving forward.

Well not really love to hear.  It only leads to the banter of "Why did they get their's and we haven't got ours?"  Which I am sure will be the next round of complaints.

Things could be much much worse!  They could have just said "Severance entitlements are frozen.  But don't worry, your accumulated time will be paid out when you retire."

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

So?  Imagine my surprise to find out that I am only entitled to 2 out of the 8 years as a Reservist, because I already have a pension for 28 years service as a Reg.  30 years is the max number that anyone is entitled to.......And yes, recceguy is probably correct in his deductions of whom is responsible.   

Don't understand the "So?" part of your post. You received a severance for your 28 years and are getting an additional 2 years, you haven't really lost anything (although Im sure you disagree because of the 6 years over the 30 year cap). In my example those 5 years are totally lost money that should be included in the calculation.

 

[DAA]

Don't understand the "So?" part of your post. You received a severance for your 28 years and are getting an additional 2 years, you haven't really lost anything (although Im sure you disagree because of the 6 years over the 30 year cap). In my example those 5 years are totally lost money that should be included in the calculation.

I can "one up you" on that one.  I asked that specific question, broken service, service that involved component transfers, etc.  My interpretation of it was that it wouldn't be counted but was told it would all be counted,

And that was from someone "well" up the food chain and in a position to determine that.

Can you say "blind leading the blind".....    :facepalm: