Canadian Troops In Norway For Cold Weather Combat Exercise
- Thread starter Sigs Pig
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Sigs Pig said:
And there goes another basket of kittens.....
Please do not post anything related to that author.
MILNET.CA MENTOR
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My apologies to Mike and the rest. I saw the name, just thought because the actual author was a Capt that it should be ok....
Should have spent that extra effort looking for the original storyline.
I do promise when I am back in Canada, I will subscribe to hopefully make up for this error and save other kittens.
Here is a proper link.
ME
Should have spent that extra effort looking for the original storyline.
I do promise when I am back in Canada, I will subscribe to hopefully make up for this error and save other kittens.
Here is a proper link.
ME
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Norway is always nervous that the Russians will try a 'land grab' a la Crimea in their northern regions that border on the Great Bear. So they always tend to take these kinds of exercises very seriously. Especially since they trust the Swedes like the cat trusts the dog.
And it's a tricky climate, as you note, for arctic warriors. I recall many times starting off a long trek on skis, near Narvik and points north, in the rain only have it plunge to minus 30 within about 3 hours. It's a tough place to operate any time of the year .
And it's a tricky climate, as you note, for arctic warriors. I recall many times starting off a long trek on skis, near Narvik and points north, in the rain only have it plunge to minus 30 within about 3 hours. It's a tough place to operate any time of the year .
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PPCLI Guy said:
Agreed, what is the purpose of participating in an exercise like this? What sort of capability are we trying to build by participating? These are questions we should probably start asking ourselves :facepalm:
What ever happened to our "focus on the Americas" anyways? Why aren't we doing something like sending company groups down to South America to go on exchange with the Brazilian Army seeing as how we now have Brazilian LO's in CADTC and supposedly wish to engage more in our own hemisphere? Just a random thought ???
Would probably be a better use of resources then sending guys to Norway to train in cold weather when I can walk out into my backyard and get all the cold weather I need. We have a severe lack of strategic direction.
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As someone who experienced a couple NATO EX's in Norway (80 & 88) I found them to be a great training experience.
A chance to work with our NATO allies and work in a fast paced environment.
As for the environment it differs from Canada. I found far deeper snow & that was back when we generally had more snow cover here in Canada than we have had generally in the last many years.
Also the land is far from flat.
Working with our NATO allies in a northern EX will give many a different view than working with the same allies in other environments.
A chance to work with our NATO allies and work in a fast paced environment.
As for the environment it differs from Canada. I found far deeper snow & that was back when we generally had more snow cover here in Canada than we have had generally in the last many years.
Also the land is far from flat.
Working with our NATO allies in a northern EX will give many a different view than working with the same allies in other environments.
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I did several Norway deployments, both under the ACE Mobile Force Land (AMFL) and NATO Composite Force (NCF). We were deployed in the Bardufoss-Setermoen area, in what was was then 6 (NO) Div's AO for the defence of North Norway. We generally worked alongside Bde North, which at that time was Norway's only standing formation in peacetime
In terms of PD, it was very interesting to see a nation wth a real, living "Total Defence" scheme, with everything from pre-set demolitions under the highways to RNAF hangars cut into the mountainside at Bardufoss, to national plans to mobilize every piece of civilian construction equipment, transport and rotary-wing aircraft in the defence of the country. It was an eye-opener to be reminded that we were part of a bigger alliance, with a potential real-world enemy. For those few unit officers who actually interacted with NATO peers in planning and coordination, there was some value too.
I'm sure that the CAF strategic planners and movers also got some practical value from doing these cross-Atlantic deployments.
In terms of tactical training, it was really not a good use of money, at all. There was almost nothing that we did there that we could not have done as well, or much better, in Canada, either in a training area such as Valcartier or Chilcoten (both of which resemble that part of Norway quite closely), or on land clearances. Due to Norwegian civilian sensibilities and environmental regulations, we were heavily restricted in what we could do, and where/when we could do it. Cutting trees, building any sort of serious defences, driving off the roads or doing any meaningful live fire traibning were all out of the question. We learned far less about cold weather operations than we learned on comparable winter exercises in Canada (that part of Norway has a climate similar to central coastal BC, due to the Gulf Stream effect)
In retrospect, IMHO the real value of the activity was not at the tactical level at all, and only secondarily for any kind of training. It was to show the Soviets that NATO would stand with the Norwegians, to reassure the Norwegians themselves, and to help keep the alliance wheels greased. And those were all useful outcomes.
In terms of PD, it was very interesting to see a nation wth a real, living "Total Defence" scheme, with everything from pre-set demolitions under the highways to RNAF hangars cut into the mountainside at Bardufoss, to national plans to mobilize every piece of civilian construction equipment, transport and rotary-wing aircraft in the defence of the country. It was an eye-opener to be reminded that we were part of a bigger alliance, with a potential real-world enemy. For those few unit officers who actually interacted with NATO peers in planning and coordination, there was some value too.
I'm sure that the CAF strategic planners and movers also got some practical value from doing these cross-Atlantic deployments.
In terms of tactical training, it was really not a good use of money, at all. There was almost nothing that we did there that we could not have done as well, or much better, in Canada, either in a training area such as Valcartier or Chilcoten (both of which resemble that part of Norway quite closely), or on land clearances. Due to Norwegian civilian sensibilities and environmental regulations, we were heavily restricted in what we could do, and where/when we could do it. Cutting trees, building any sort of serious defences, driving off the roads or doing any meaningful live fire traibning were all out of the question. We learned far less about cold weather operations than we learned on comparable winter exercises in Canada (that part of Norway has a climate similar to central coastal BC, due to the Gulf Stream effect)
In retrospect, IMHO the real value of the activity was not at the tactical level at all, and only secondarily for any kind of training. It was to show the Soviets that NATO would stand with the Norwegians, to reassure the Norwegians themselves, and to help keep the alliance wheels greased. And those were all useful outcomes.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Now that the 'Cold War' may be back, I'm thinking Norway - and NATOs northern flank against Russia - is going to be back as a theatre of some importance. Of course, that includes us.
Back in 1973 when I was BC of the AMF(L) Battery, I did a mountain firing attachment to the Field Artillery Battalion Brigade North (FABN.) I hit it off with the CO and his ops officer so well that they invited me to attend the brigade annual FTX which followed immediately after my original attachment. Long story short, it was very interesting. I worked in the COs Tac and picked up enough Norske to be able to follow normal traffic on the regimental net, especially after I learned the call signs and the fire discipline and artillery fire orders they used.
The brigade deployed well to the east by a combination of road move and LST lift. The terrain was very restrictive with mountain slopes on one side and fiords on the other and tactics were based on cutting the advancing enemy columns into pieces by inserting battalion blocks along the road then mopping up the cut off element rear to front.
Who knows, maybe what goes around, comes around.
Loachman, their aviation was a combination of L19s and B model Hueys. FABN used German model M109s and the tank battalion had Leopard 1s, while the infantry were foot borne.
The brigade deployed well to the east by a combination of road move and LST lift. The terrain was very restrictive with mountain slopes on one side and fiords on the other and tactics were based on cutting the advancing enemy columns into pieces by inserting battalion blocks along the road then mopping up the cut off element rear to front.
Who knows, maybe what goes around, comes around.
Loachman, their aviation was a combination of L19s and B model Hueys. FABN used German model M109s and the tank battalion had Leopard 1s, while the infantry were foot borne.
- Reaction score
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Yup.
They thumped an L19 in during my first visit in early 1983. It got caught in a down-draught. I saw it being trucked back home - interesting-looking wreckage. It looked like it had just been swatted into the ground, which it had been.
We worked closely with 339 Squadron, who were the UH1B guys. They were nuts. They had a small ops building in Bardufoss, single-storey with a peaked roof like a house. On one side, there were two rotor blades anchored in concrete to make a large V, connected at the top by a large chain from which their Squadron badge hung. I was inside, late in the afternoon of our first day there, when I heard the thumping sound of a Huey approaching at speed. It got louder and closer. The building began to shake. And then I saw skids flash paste the window. The window was well below the top of the blade V and the peak of the roof. The helicopter's blades could not have cleared either by much more than a foot as the fuselage went between them. Apparently, the last crew down on a Friday afternoon had to do a low pass over Ops or buy beer for all Squadron members in the Mess that evening. At Norgie prices, risking death may have been preferable.
I tried a few dry fire missions with their M109s during the actual ex on that visit. Radio relay down the valleys was an excrutiatingly long process, and we were never able to actually crank one up.
It's a simple language, once one gets used to some bizarre pronunciations and learns a little vocabulary. Asking one of our hosts how to say something was always amusing, though - "It's *** **** *****." "No - don't listen to him. He's from *****************. It's really ***** **** ***." "No, they're both wrong. It's..." Lots of ocal dialects, plus there was a movement to institute Nynorsk ("New Norwegian", but more a rebuilt version of the traditional Norwegian language) and push back Bokmal ("Book Speak", more Danish as a result of Denmark's former control of Norway.
Great people. Good parties, too. Recycle a Newfie joke as a Swedish joke, and you're in.
I loved the place.
Oh, and every house looked like an Ikea display on the inside.
They thumped an L19 in during my first visit in early 1983. It got caught in a down-draught. I saw it being trucked back home - interesting-looking wreckage. It looked like it had just been swatted into the ground, which it had been.
We worked closely with 339 Squadron, who were the UH1B guys. They were nuts. They had a small ops building in Bardufoss, single-storey with a peaked roof like a house. On one side, there were two rotor blades anchored in concrete to make a large V, connected at the top by a large chain from which their Squadron badge hung. I was inside, late in the afternoon of our first day there, when I heard the thumping sound of a Huey approaching at speed. It got louder and closer. The building began to shake. And then I saw skids flash paste the window. The window was well below the top of the blade V and the peak of the roof. The helicopter's blades could not have cleared either by much more than a foot as the fuselage went between them. Apparently, the last crew down on a Friday afternoon had to do a low pass over Ops or buy beer for all Squadron members in the Mess that evening. At Norgie prices, risking death may have been preferable.
I tried a few dry fire missions with their M109s during the actual ex on that visit. Radio relay down the valleys was an excrutiatingly long process, and we were never able to actually crank one up.
It's a simple language, once one gets used to some bizarre pronunciations and learns a little vocabulary. Asking one of our hosts how to say something was always amusing, though - "It's *** **** *****." "No - don't listen to him. He's from *****************. It's really ***** **** ***." "No, they're both wrong. It's..." Lots of ocal dialects, plus there was a movement to institute Nynorsk ("New Norwegian", but more a rebuilt version of the traditional Norwegian language) and push back Bokmal ("Book Speak", more Danish as a result of Denmark's former control of Norway.
Great people. Good parties, too. Recycle a Newfie joke as a Swedish joke, and you're in.
I loved the place.
Oh, and every house looked like an Ikea display on the inside.
- Reaction score
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I like that stuff. I only wish that we could buy it at the same strength here.
Their moonshine, though...
Especially when doctored with the artificial flavours. Those tasted most repugnant. Plain was much better.
Their moonshine, though...
Especially when doctored with the artificial flavours. Those tasted most repugnant. Plain was much better.
- Reaction score
- 290
- Points
- 980
Old Sweat said:
Ah! FISKEPUDDING!!!
Roughly five-inch-square slabs of glistening-white gelatinous... stuff. I had never seen whale blubber before, but that was all that I could think of.
I was sitting with some guys from 337 Squadron on my second visit, in September 1983, some of whom I knew from earlier in the year.
With great suspicion and trepidation, I lopped a small corner off with my knife, which met no resistance. I put it in my mouth. No flavour whatsoever. I spludged it between my tongue and the roof of my mouth.
"What is this?" I asked.
"[Norwegian accent] Fiskepudding [/Norwegian accent]" (fish pudding), they all said.
"How do they make it?" I asked. My real question was "why do they make it?", but I did not want to cause offence by insulting a national delicacy. But why take a perfectly good fish and turn it into that?
"[Norwegian accent] The cooks run over it in their cars on their way to work in the morning [/Norwegian accent]."
"So you don't like it either."
"[Norwegian accent] Oh, no. We hate it [Norwegian accent]."
"Then why do you eat it?"
"[Norwegian accent] It's all there is [Norwegian accent]"
I skipped lunch the next day, because lunch was usually the previous dinner's leftovers, but fried, which at least gave it some flavour.
Old Sweat said:
I think that they've been bred out.
- Reaction score
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loved Norway; I was with 1RCR in the early to mid 80's before I LOTPed. Been to Norway a couple times; first time in 83 (or could have been 84) as an AVGP grizzly driver and turret gunner; which was 'fun' careening down a Norgie 'highway': mountain on one side of the road; on the other a flimsy guard rail & then a gawd awful drop to a fjord below. Beautiful country, beautiful women, beautiful people. Though the MAKO beers 1, 2 & 3 gave me a killer headache hangover a few times....well, just the 3 & some Norgie liquor might be to blame.
- Reaction score
- 290
- Points
- 980
Mack Ol. Traditionally consumed with seagull eggs. We passed on the tradition.
We were buying it directly from the brewery, not too far away, for 1 Krone a bottle for our canteen (there were seventeen of us there, with three Kiowas), wherein we were selling it for 3 Kr. It was 10 Kr in the Officers' Mess, 23.50 in the Bardufoss Hotel in nearby Andselv, and 26.00 in the Andselv Disco. Somebody was getting rich.
I drank almost half of a 40 ouncer of cheap Scotch, out of my trusty yellow Melmac cup, on my second-last night there in order to help out our techs, who'd decided that they didn't like it. It was NATO duty-free for only $5.00, after all. And then I wandered over to the Mess and drank with the Officers of 41 Squadron, RAF. We finished off the beer there, and then worked on other stuff. It took me a while to reassemble my flying clothing the next day, some of which was still at the Mess.
And the sun was soooo bright. And my sunglasses were in my flying jacket, hanging in the Mess cloakroom.
We were buying it directly from the brewery, not too far away, for 1 Krone a bottle for our canteen (there were seventeen of us there, with three Kiowas), wherein we were selling it for 3 Kr. It was 10 Kr in the Officers' Mess, 23.50 in the Bardufoss Hotel in nearby Andselv, and 26.00 in the Andselv Disco. Somebody was getting rich.
I drank almost half of a 40 ouncer of cheap Scotch, out of my trusty yellow Melmac cup, on my second-last night there in order to help out our techs, who'd decided that they didn't like it. It was NATO duty-free for only $5.00, after all. And then I wandered over to the Mess and drank with the Officers of 41 Squadron, RAF. We finished off the beer there, and then worked on other stuff. It took me a while to reassemble my flying clothing the next day, some of which was still at the Mess.
And the sun was soooo bright. And my sunglasses were in my flying jacket, hanging in the Mess cloakroom.
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Old Sweat said:
Yep, although when I last visited in 2010, it seemed like all of the (natural, at least) blondes were Swedes, not Norgies. It's like the entire country's women decided to dye their hair black/brown at once. Very strange.
Still love the accent though, although for some reason it sounds like they're speaking while driving down a small dip in the road. Don't ask me why.
Their P-3s go to Halifax quite regularly according to my Norgie friends' FB pages.
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