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Canadian Sea King crashes off Denmark

Cannoneer No. 4 said:
Montreal's Sea King.  The other pic was Athapaskan's Sea King landing on the Frankfurt Am Main.

I see you're plucking pictures off the internet, I thought for a second you might have actually been there. The picture you posted of Athabaskan's helo isn't the one that ditched, wrong tail number, that helo in the picture is alive and well in Shearwater.

Somebody care to fill me in with the Dennmark comment? They were in International waters and Dennmark happened to be the closest point of land, point is what exactly?

ChopperHead said:
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060202/seaking_crash_060202

"The single-rotor helicopters were first purchased in 1963, and in 2004, 28 were still in use. They often experience flameouts, engine stalls, generator failures, and have been described as "flying coffins" by members of the military.

I liked this little tid bit of info. Has anyone actually heard someone call them flying coffins?
I hope this is a kick in the ass for the new government to get those helicopters and get them as quick as possible and dont let what happened before happen again.

Never heard it myself though I've only been flying them for a little over a year. I love how the media embellishes things, They "often" experience..., BS! I haven't once had a major problem, sure there's been a lot of small problems but I wouldn't qualify that as often. Generator failure is no big deal, the system will automatically transfer all critical systems over to the functioning Generator, mind you, your mission is pretty much over at that point, but it certainly won't put you in the drink unless they both go and it's a pitch black night.
 
Never heard it myself though I've only been flying them for a little over a year. I love how the media embellishes things, They "often" experience..., BS! I haven't once had a major problem, sure there's been a lot of small problems but I wouldn't qualify that as often. Generator failure is no big deal, the system will automatically transfer all critical systems over to the functioning Generator, mind you, your mission is pretty much over at that point, but it certainly won't put you in the drink unless they both go and it's a pitch black night.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story! I swear that they must teach that at journalism school these days.
 
Inch, totally guessing here, but perhaps the Denmark comments are about Hann's Island, which folks knowing where the SNFL was sailing will also know was thousands of nautical miles away...heck Hann's Island is probably closer to Alert than these guys were to Copenhagen (well, almost?)

Cheers,
Duey
 
First off good to hear the crew is allright.

Let me qualify my comments below by stating that I am reserve member (Army) who knows pretty much bugger all about choppers.

I was watching a documentary a few weeks back on the 10 best Helicopters of all time. I think the Sea King came in at number 5 on that list. Given what I have read on them here in Canada I was really surprised to see the Sea King on the show as the #5 all time best helicopter.

It showed the British Navy flying them for the show, and the Brit pilot went on and on about what a great helicopter it was.

Is the Sea King's reputation/image in Canada of being a lemon unwarranted?
 
Devlin said:
Is the Sea King's reputation/image in Canada of being a lemon unwarranted?

It has a very fine reputation......it is just so old that there are problems keeping the Airframes airworthy.
 
So it's just a matter of a piece of equipment that has put in it's time and is showing it's age then.

I have a rule I apply when dealing with what the media puts out, believe none of what you "hear", half of what you read and all of what you know.

Just seems anytime a Sea King is involved the press jumps all over them as being thousands of loose parts flying in close formation, that can come apart at anytime.

I've never been in one or even seen one in person to make any sort of judgement so thought I would put the question to those in the know. Thanks for the reply.
 
The problem with our Sea Kings is the same problem we have with most of our military equipment.  Canada has a history of buying very good equipment, but not buying the proper maintenance packages or service contracts and/or spare parts that are required to keep them in fighting trim.  Good examples include the CF18's, and our Sea Kings.

Good helicopter, but ours are OLD.  Same as our Hercs.  The Herc is the de facto military standard, but ours are old, and I believe they are looking for replacements right now.

Just out of idle curiosity, which government was it that last brought in effective equipment?  The libs gave us leaky subs, and NO helicopter replacements, the conservatives gave us trucks you can hear braking formiles...what was our last really kewl purchase?  Frigates?
 
Devlin said:
I have a rule I apply when dealing with what the media puts out, believe none of what you "hear", half of what you read and all of what you know.

Well now, aren't we living that right now, eh?  ;)
 
Gunnar said:
The problem with our Sea Kings is the same problem we have with most of our military equipment.  Canada has a history of buying very good equipment, but not buying the proper maintenance packages or service contracts and/or spare parts that are required to keep them in fighting trim.  Good examples include the CF18's, and our Sea Kings.

Good helicopter, but ours are OLD.  Same as our Hercs.  The Herc is the de facto military standard, but ours are old, and I believe they are looking for replacements right now.

Just out of idle curiosity, which government was it that last brought in effective equipment?  The libs gave us leaky subs, and NO helicopter replacements, the conservatives gave us trucks you can hear braking formiles...what was our last really kewl purchase?  Frigates?

Gunnar, I couldn't agree more.  This idea that "now we have the kit, we're good to go 'ad infinitum'..." is just wrong.  How many examples out there...5/4's, M113s, Sea-King, 18, Aurora, Frigate, BHP 9mm, the list goes on.  Ironically, one of the few capabilities I can think of that never made it past mid-life was the Chinook...removed from service after only 13 years...but, at least "we" (the CF) chose to cease operations with it vice upgrade properly and carry on...in a perverted way, at least that didn't drag out another 15 years of improper support. 

IMO, the Liberals should have immediately approved a mid/end-life upgrade to the Sea King as soon as Uncle Jean signed, "No helicopters, zero, zip" on the bottom line in 1993.  Some improvements came along, including upgrading the T-58 engines to a -100 capability, but without an upgraded main transmission to handle the increased power, the full potential of the upgrade was never met.  That the old gal has lasted as long as she has is a testament to the maintainers to keep them flying and the operators who climb aboard something that, in the majority of cases, is older than any of the aircrew themselves.  BZ folks!

Cheers,
Duey
 
Not true, Duey.  We got a 25K series gearbox to go with the -100 engines.  IMHO, we have a pretty solid drivetrain/powerplant combo going on right now.  We have just let the spare parts situation and sensors/avionics slide for so many years, we are hopeless behind the power curve.

The Sea King is/was a brilliant design leap in helicopters.  Alot of the stuff old Igor Sikorsky did in designing it (with a slide ruler, mostly) has never been bettered in 40 since.  It is a class act as a helicopter and will always be my favorite.  But alas, ours are old and getting tired.  Time to jump two full generations of technology in one single bound!

And I have never heard a serving Sea King crewmember refer to the aircraft as a "flying coffin".  The reporter is talking out of his @$$.

Cheers,
 
Armymatters said:
Is the Sea King repairable?  :( I am hearing from the CBC that the Sea King is under 16 metres of water. Good luck to whoever is going to try to recover it.   :salute:

At least the crew is ok...

Are you high?  Leave the friggin thing down there and get these guys some reliable equipment!  God will only give so many freebee's to us in the way of non fatal crashes. 
If it has to be recovered, maybe one of our ultra useful subs could find it... ::)
 
Apparantly, the military are thinking about grounding the entire Sea King fleet until they figure out what went wrong...
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/02/03/seaking060203.html
 
zipperhead_cop said:
Are you high?  Leave the friggin thing down there and get these guys some reliable equipment!  God will only give so many freebee's to us in the way of non fatal crashes. 
If it has to be recovered, maybe one of our ultra useful subs could find it... ::)

Yes, you're quite right, leave it down there so that we can't find out what happened to it. I know that as a Sea King pilot, I wouldn't want to know what the problem was so that it can happen again to more of my friends or even me. Good thinking.  ::)

Armymatters,

I know your posting habits on this site, so I'll tell you that grounding a fleet after a crash is only prudent. If this is a systemic problem, why endanger more aircrew? This is standard practice after any aircraft accident. We grounded the Griffons after that one lost the tail rotor in Goose Bay, we grounded the Sea Kings after #401 crashed on the deck of the Iroquois, and I'm sure there's multiple examples of this practice. The only time I would think that grounding is unwarranted would be aircraft accidents due to weather.

 
Acorn said:
I'm surprised no one has associated the fact that this occurred off Denmark

Coincidence?

Inch said:
Somebody care to fill me in with the Dennmark comment? They were in International waters and Dennmark happened to be the closest point of land, point is what exactly?

The Muslim world is outraged because a Danish newspaper published offensive cartoons about the Prophet Muhammad, then European media published them again as a show of free speech.  The Muslims are now burning Danish flags.  These two events followed one another on the CTV news last night, and I too wondered about the coincidence of Denmark being in both stories.

 
Please leave the speculative conspiracy theories out of the discussion.
 
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060203/sea_kings_update_060203

Crashed Sea King recovered and raised onto barge

CTV.ca News Staff
 
Updated: Fri. Feb. 3 2006 4:26 PM ET

A Sea King helicopter that crashed into the ocean off Denmark Thursday has been recovered and raised onto a barge.

Cdr. Chris Dickinson said the downed aircraft was hoisted from about 16 metres of water late Friday afternoon.

The Sea King is expected to be ferried to the Danish port of Arhus, where it will be met by a Canadian flight safety investigation team which is en route to Denmark and due to arrive sometime this weekend.

The Sea King went down 50 kilometres off the east coast of Denmark after trying to land on HMCS Athabaskan.

The five crew members were recovered safely before the chopper sank, and they were taken to the Athabaskan, which serves as the base to the helicopter and its crew.

The crew was treated for "minor injuries" but are otherwise fine, according to officials in Halifax.

Over the weekend, military officials will assess what happened to cause the helicopter to crash.

The commander of the Sea King squadron, Col. Al Blair, will consult with personnel at the Shearwater air base near Halifax whether to ground the entire fleet of aging Sea Kings.

For now, the air force is not flying any of the choppers, and training exercises will be delayed likely until next week while the investigation is underway.

"These three days are giving us a chance to take the information we have and assess where we're going to go in the future," a spokesperson from Shearwater told CTV.ca

"We've got to look at all options. There are options of replacing aircraft for the ship, or replacing the crew on the ship; and also whether we are going to be flying, and if so, when?"

The incident occurred during a night operation while the crew practiced landings at the rear of the Athabaskan. The navy says the Sea King tried initially to land on the warship but flew off to try again. It was making a second pass when it suddenly went into the water.

Speaking at a news conference Thursday, Blair said the "aircraft was making a standard night approach to the ship when it contacted the water and rolled inverted."

"It was quite dark when the incident happened," Cmdr. Chris Dickerson told CTV Newsnet, speaking from the Athabaskan.

The Athabaskan has a crew of about 300 military personnel, and is the flagship for a NATO squadron of five destroyers and frigates from five different nations.

The decades-old Sea King fleet has been fraught with problems for years.

The single-rotor helicopters were first purchased in 1963, and in 2004, 28 were still in use. They often experience flameouts, engine stalls, generator failures, and have been described as "flying coffins" by members of the military.

In 1993, Jean Chretien's newly-elected government cancelled a Tory plan that would have replaced the Sea Kings by 2000.

The Liberal government said the plan was too expensive, but pulling out of the deal cost Canada $500 million in cancellation fees.

Last year the government contracted to purchase 28 Cyclones to replace the Sea Kings, but the first aircraft won't be delivered until late 2008.

The last Sea King is expected to retire in 2011.

With files from Canadian Press
 
heres another link regarding the SeaKing.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050529/seaking_report_050529?hub=Canada&s_name=&no_ads=


found this one kinda interesting. Not about the one that when for a swim but still it's relevant.


Just out of curiosity here. how does a Sea King sink anyway? I thought they were supposed to float?


 
Panther said:
The Muslim world is outraged because a Danish newspaper published offensive cartoons about the Prophet Muhammad, then European media published them again as a show of free speech.  The Muslims are now burning Danish flags.  These two events followed one another on the CTV news last night, and I too wondered about the coincidence of Denmark being in both stories.

Oy, don't sprain anything jumping to conclusions.

My "Denmark" comment was a tongue-in-cheek reference to our late dispute with the Danes over a piece of rock up North. I shouldn't be suprised that the humour didn't take - it's the Internet, after all.
 
Inch said:
Yes, you're quite right, leave it down there so that we can't find out what happened to it. I know that as a Sea King pilot, I wouldn't want to know what the problem was so that it can happen again to more of my friends or even me. Good thinking.  ::)

Easy, there Captain Sensitive.  I meant junk the things and get you guys some new kit that doesn't break.  By all means, pull it out of the water and find out that the duct tape holding the patch onto the replaced whatzahoozits came loose.  But by pulling it out, I would hate that to mean that it was going to be fixed and put back in service. 
Is the problem not simply they are old and need to be replaced?  I don't use them, so I don't presume to know anything about them.  I just read about them when they go splash or crunch.
 
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