Canadian military’s template for perfect recruits outdated: Vance

[blacktriangle]

With the money these guys can make for cyber warfare skills civvie side.....rest assured they will likely make more than us....not less.

Correct. Good luck retaining competent Cyber Ops with Spec 1. Even similar jobs in the public sector pay more with less BS.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Am I missing something?  While there has been some previous announcements discussion from CAF leadership about possible changes to service models, this latest article does not report anything new other than quoting Vance while he was discussing "diversity" as the "token" male on one of the panels at the Halifax Security Forum.  It wasn't from a speech or public announcement about any new initiatives, it was only reiterating as part of a panel discussion the realization that the way things worked in the past will likely not work in the future.

Video of the panel is here (go down the page a bit), the bit that was quoted from Vance is near the beginning.
https://halifaxtheforum.org/forum/2018-halifax-international-security-forum/saturday-november-17/#agenda

 

[Jarnhamar]

Correct. Good luck retaining competent Cyber Ops with Spec 1. Even similar jobs in the public sector pay more with less BS.

We could try something radical and stop treating people like shit.

 

[blacktriangle]

We could try something radical and stop treating people like crap.

 

[JesseWZ]

We could try something radical and stop treating people like crap.

Slow your roll... you know senior officers lurk these boards...

They may actually try it... and then where would we be?!  :tsktsk:

 

[AbdullahD]

I do not think lowering fitness standards is the correct way to go. I think integrating a "fit-to-fight" model would be best, a person can hire on for a specific role then spend 'x' amount of time of the work week in the gym. Once they are 'fit' they start bmq either how the reserves do it or full time. Now the harsh realization is some people who may really desire to be in the forces, be competent to do a specific job may need a year or more to get fit.. so have an addendum to the contract that time spent not bmq qualified and in the 'fit-to-fight' program only counts as half time.. so if you sign on for say four years.. but take two getting fit your in for 5 or so.

Also looking at pay specs for a lot of trades.. I do think pay raises are in order.. but i could be out to lunch here.

The culture and mentality I cant speak to, so I wont really.. but if it is as bad as some here lead me to believe by their posts.. then asking a person to take a pay cut or deal with drama and bs may not be worth it for them. Heck I'm 32 and I am very curious if I can handle the drama of bmq and military life..  or if it is just not worth it (no i am not looking to apply CN is taking care of me right now quite well and this last year I've been lazy so yeah lol just wanted to put a disclaimer on that).

A lot of the educated, skilled people the CAF needs to attract may not be interested due to perception and stereotypes in the CAF. Now a targeted advertising campaign, enforcement of a new culture (possibly) and a realization that north Americans are typically over weight and becoming fit doesnt happen over night needs to happen. Telling someone if they get fit (however long that takes), they can take a 5 grand pay cut and serve their country.. does not seem to be working.

I'd be in the CAF right now and not at CN if these things were implemented.. but I got the job offer at CN before I was ready for the CAF.. so i chose CN because i couldn't wait. Now i have a career and yea i want to get fit.. but now is it worth it?

This is my bias from my experience take as you will.
Abdullah

Ps I personally do not care about targeted recruiting regarding minorities, women etc. I think the best person should get the job, regardless of sex, race or religion.. so the minorities thing is a meh point to me but address the other issues and that gets addressed to, to an extent.

 

[Furniture]

One huge problem with reduced standards is how far do they go?

I'm a weather guy, but when I was in Afghanistan with D Bty they didn't ask whether I was "ok" when it came time to dig mortar pits, or hump ammo.

Does Met now qualify because we can't attract enough people? We are shot, and projected short next year. Maybe we need to lower standards, then we can fill trade with even more troops collecting a full salary, yet failing to do the expected jobs.

There is no good end to this, just damage control.

 

[dapaterson]

To my mind, the CAF's problem is not entry standards, but excessive training pre employment.  We need a cull to focus training to get pers out of the training system faster.  This means accepting lower initial skills for Ptes, and understanding the need for ongoing PD once in units.

Or, to quote a friend about his recent course, "It was a typical Army course, with two weeks of content crammed into four."

 

[PuckChaser]

Sigs tried to do that with ACISS. It failed miserably as the line units couldn't dedicate time to teach skills that should have been mastered at a DP1 level. All we did was end up creating troops that had to be babysat at the units instead of being trusted that their training was sufficient to operate independently.

 

[RCDtpr]

The reality for this new cyber trade is they can lower the fitness, deployment, whatever standards all they want.  Until they start paying their people commensurate to their skill level etc. they will always have issues hiring and retaining people.

Take a look at the MP’s.  They can’t keep up with attrition because a huge number realize getting paid 65-70k as a spec Cpl when they can go get paid 100k as a first class Constable (before overtime) without the military headache is too enticing.  That’s only 30-35k pay gap......in the cyber trades they think they can pay an NCM of any rank well under 100k when those guys can go make 150+ to start, to do private consulting etc and retain people?

I’m no expert and I could be wrong but I think NOTHING the military does short of paying those guys/girls a ton of money will retain them.

 

[Remius]

We need a more asymmetrical approach to it.  In house VOTs could get a few and create a core.  Sell the cyber stuff as a stepping stone into civy life for others.  Come do a VIE and get valuable real life experience.  Pay may be an issue but it can be mitigated with some creative stuff.  Preferential postings,  optional VOTs and interesting secondments etc

If cyber is that important then put it on par with SOF. 

 

[PuckChaser]

Let's be honest, folks coming right out of school trained in cyber defense are not making 150k to start. Those high paying jobs need experience. 5 years after working in cyber at DND, absolutely. But off the bat spec 1 Cpl is fine. Especially with the job security (ironclad unless you're a rapist), which is worth quite a bit in salary offsets.

 

[RCDtpr]

Let's be honest, folks coming right out of school trained in cyber defense are not making 150k to start. Those high paying jobs need experience. 5 years after working in cyber at DND, absolutely. But off the bat spec 1 Cpl is fine. Especially with the job security (ironclad unless you're a rapist), which is worth quite a bit in salary offsets.

I agree with you....but the trade will have the same problems as the MP’s.  People join to get experience and courses with zero intention of staying for a career, meaning the CAF lacks experienced leadership in the trade as well as having to constantly pay to train new people.

So like I said, until the CAF makes pay competitive with civvie side opportunities, they will have huge problems retaining people in that trade as the pay gap for experienced cyber warfare specialists is just too massive for for say a Sgt with 10 years experience making less than 80k with spec.

 

[Remius]

Let's be honest, folks coming right out of school trained in cyber defense are not making 150k to start. Those high paying jobs need experience. 5 years after working in cyber at DND, absolutely. But off the bat spec 1 Cpl is fine. Especially with the job security (ironclad unless you're a rapist), which is worth quite a bit in salary offsets.

Yeah, that number seems to be in the lower range for CISOs (Chief information Security Officers).

Here is a site that shows the average starting salary to be around 42,000$ a year with 87,000 being the average in Canada.  150,000 is at the top end of the spectrum.

https://neuvoo.ca/salary/?job=cyber+security

 

[daftandbarmy]

I agree with you....but the trade will have the same problems as the MP’s.  People join to get experience and courses with zero intention of staying for a career, meaning the CAF lacks experienced leadership in the trade as well as having to constantly pay to train new people.

So like I said, until the CAF makes pay competitive with civvie side opportunities, they will have huge problems retaining people in that trade as the pay gap for experienced cyber warfare specialists is just too massive for for say a Sgt with 10 years experience making less than 80k with spec.

I occasionally work with IT focused departments in government as clients. They know they'll never be able to compete with the private sector on pay.

However, they know that the millennial generation aren't all about 'working ourselves to death for cash' so are, instead, focusing on the impact that passionate public servants can have on the lives of citizens through designing  and implementing enhanced digital services. A good impact that is.

 

[Remius]

I occasionally work with IT focused departments in government as clients. They know they'll never be able to compete with the private sector on pay.

However, they know that the millennial generation aren't all about 'working ourselves to death for cash' so are, instead, focusing on the impact that passionate public servants can have on the lives of citizens through designing  and implementing enhanced digital services. A good impact that is.

Part of that is accepting that the 25-35 year career might be become (unless it hasn't already) the exception rather than the norm. So maybe a new model is needed to deal with that.

 

[Underway]

I agree with you....but the trade will have the same problems as the MP’s.  People join to get experience and courses with zero intention of staying for a career, meaning the CAF lacks experienced leadership in the trade as well as having to constantly pay to train new people.

So like I said, until the CAF makes pay competitive with civvie side opportunities, they will have huge problems retaining people in that trade as the pay gap for experienced cyber warfare specialists is just too massive for for say a Sgt with 10 years experience making less than 80k with spec.

So make a cyber warfare specialist a civilian "contractor" job.  For cyber warfare the military only needs a seat at the table.  Perhaps at the head of the table but cyber is going to require a system that is more akin to the SAR job than with traditional warfare, where all the players sit together at a table.  Cybersecurity might rotate to who takes lead depending on the situation.  CSIS, RCMP, CAF etc...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Does Met now qualify because we can't attract enough people? We are shot, and projected short next year. Maybe we need to lower standards, then we can fill trade with even more troops collecting a full salary, yet failing to do the expected jobs.

  Maybe try giving people, like, Remedial Measures to help them correct deficiencies before going right to the firing squad solution?

;D

 

[dapaterson]

I agree with you....but the trade will have the same problems as the MP’s.  People join to get experience and courses with zero intention of staying for a career, meaning the CAF lacks experienced leadership in the trade as well as having to constantly pay to train new people.

So like I said, until the CAF makes pay competitive with civvie side opportunities, they will have huge problems retaining people in that trade as the pay gap for experienced cyber warfare specialists is just too massive for for say a Sgt with 10 years experience making less than 80k with spec.

We need some long, hard decisions about what needs to be in a CAF uniform, and what does not.  PW handling and base / wing security (especially when deployed)?  Uniformed.  PMQ patch patrols?  Perhaps not so necessary.  I'd argue that the problem with MPs is that we badged them...

 

[stellarpanther]

I don't think there is a clear answer to the problems as everything I have read here is accurate and I've heard all of these reasons mentioned when mbr's come in for release appointments.  One of the big reasons I hear is that the CoC treats them like crap, lies to them and has an old school way of thinking.  The CDS can issue all the directives he wants and I like and agree completely with what he is doing but the problem is his Sr NCO's and Lt-Maj's are not always following his directives.  There are other things that people don't like either like all of the secondary duties. Most mbr's work extremely hard and they want to enjoy their time off, not do things like WASF or BDF or whatever you want to call it. Most HRA's, FSA, cooks etc didn't join to guard the base or stand in a field guarding a plane.  The would have applied to be an MP if that was the case.  Also hearing the line "that's what you signed up for" pisses me off to no end.  I know what I signed up for and don't need someone telling me.  Sorry for the rant but this stuff gets me worked up.