Canada's tanks

[McG]

Why not ? If you do t mind the question

We are not replacing our tank fleet. We are only replenishing its numbers. Canada has learned that a mixed fleet of Leo 2 is bad enough, but at least they are all Leo 2. There is still some commonality.

Adding a micro-fleet of Abrams beside our Leopards will not make things better.

 

[markppcli]

We are not replacing our tank fleet. We are only replenishing its numbers. Canada has learned that a mixed fleet of Leo 2 is bad enough, but at least they are all Leo 2. There is still some commonality.

Adding a micro-fleet of Abrams beside our Leopards will not make things better.

Right I think some here were just hoping for a full change.

 

[McG]

We are not on that path.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We are not on that path.

For now. Things can always change.

 

[Prairie canuck]

I have no doubt that tanks have a prominent role in what is happening on the ground in Ukraine. However, yes there's always a however, with all the video available from there, and it is a lot, I have only seen 2 tank vs tank engagements and very very few tank vs IFV engagements. Tanks and IFVs are predominantly dying from artillery and AT weapons. Now, these are all soviet era tanks but seemingly avoiding engaging directly with each other. Will that change when the NATO Leopards and Abrams join the melee?
Also since artillery and AT weapons are playing a predominant role shouldn't those be the priority to procure before the tanks?
I'm likely over or under thinking this.

 

[markppcli]

I have no doubt that tanks have a prominent role in what is happening on the ground in Ukraine. However, yes there's always a however, with all the video available from there, and it is a lot, I have only seen 2 tank vs tank engagements and very very few tank vs IFV engagements. Tanks and IFVs are predominantly dying from artillery and AT weapons. Now, these are all soviet era tanks but seemingly avoiding engaging directly with each other. Will that change when the NATO Leopards and Abrams join the melee?
Also since artillery and AT weapons are playing a predominant role shouldn't those be the priority to procure before the tanks?
I'm likely over or under thinking this.

I’d caution against using videos for an accurate in the ground picture of what happening in Ukraine. Both sides are largely in control of their media out out and your seeing success, which leads to confirmation bias pretty quickly. That conflict is informing us about a a lot, but we should be wary of making sweeping assumptions until we have a more full, clear picture.

For what it’s worth there are ATGM UOR and longer term acquisition project happening right now.

 

[CBH99]

I have no doubt that tanks have a prominent role in what is happening on the ground in Ukraine. However, yes there's always a however, with all the video available from there, and it is a lot, I have only seen 2 tank vs tank engagements and very very few tank vs IFV engagements. Tanks and IFVs are predominantly dying from artillery and AT weapons. Now, these are all soviet era tanks but seemingly avoiding engaging directly with each other. Will that change when the NATO Leopards and Abrams join the melee?
Also since artillery and AT weapons are playing a predominant role shouldn't those be the priority to procure before the tanks?
I'm likely over or under thinking this.

Highly mobile ATGM teams, especially when deployed in depth, is absolutely a disproportionate capability against Russian armour, and vice versa.


My understanding is that they have enough ATGM systems for now, and have enough missiles coming in each month to replace what's being used.

The tanks are needed for some large offensive operations being prepared now, to attack occupied territories and make a real push.

 

[Kirkhill]

War of the Roses vs Arrows and Civil War vs Muskets

Napoleonic Wars vs Muskets

Boer War vs Rifles and Machine Guns. (Cavalry, mounted infantry and horse artillery)

WW1 vs Rifles and Machine Guns



I don't know where on the timeline we are but I do expect the cycle to repeat.

 

[Halifax Tar]

War of the Roses vs Arrows and Civil War vs Muskets

Napoleonic Wars vs Muskets

Boer War vs Rifles and Machine Guns. (Cavalry, mounted infantry and horse artillery)

WW1 vs Rifles and Machine Guns

View attachment 76596

I don't know where on the timeline we are but I do expect the cycle to repeat.

We are here

 

[Kirkhill]

We are here

Manana ...

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Since they announced another 4 tanks to the Ukraine efforts. I saw this today on line

Canadian military will get new tanks to replace Leopards going to Ukraine: minister - National | Globalnews.ca

Anita Anand says the Canadian Forces will be receiving new tanks to replace the eight fighting machines sent to Ukraine, and they won't necessarily be Leopard 2 battle tanks.

globalnews.ca

 

[Brad Sallows]

Winning the war in Ukraine, 4 tanks at a time.

 

[Kirkhill]

Why not ? If you do t mind the question

When does a CCV become a Tank? When ASCOD becomes a Griffin II MPFS?

If dreaming it would also be nice to have 4 NEMO-120 turrets with every Combined Arms Sub-Unit (Tanks and LAVs) - DFS/Indirect/MRSI - 8 to 12 km

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Winning the war in Ukraine, 4 tanks at a time.

seems like a good number to send, we sent 4 M777s, that is almost 1/10 of of total guns. So 8 tanks, and 80 some odd tanks, 30 some odd are running we are sending 10% of the tank force. If we sent 10% of the air force or navy that would have real impacts.

 

[Kirkhill]

seems like a good number to send, we sent 4 M777s, that is almost 1/10 of of total guns. So 8 tanks, and 80 some odd tanks, 30 some odd are running we are sending 10% of the tank force. If we sent 10% of the air force or navy that would have real impacts.

Likewise if everybody else contributed 10% of their active fleets.

Maybe the Ukrainians would also like 66 LAVs and 50 TAPVs?

 

[armrdsoul77]

I don't know where on the timeline we are but I do expect the cycle to repeat.

Hopefully we don't get a hard reset.

 

[Lumber]

I have no doubt that tanks have a prominent role in what is happening on the ground in Ukraine. However, yes there's always a however, with all the video available from there, and it is a lot, I have only seen 2 tank vs tank engagements and very very few tank vs IFV engagements. Tanks and IFVs are predominantly dying from artillery and AT weapons. Now, these are all soviet era tanks but seemingly avoiding engaging directly with each other. Will that change when the NATO Leopards and Abrams join the melee?
Also since artillery and AT weapons are playing a predominant role shouldn't those be the priority to procure before the tanks?
I'm likely over or under thinking this.

You know who is best situated to assess and inform the rest of us of whether or not MBTs are still relevant and needed in modern peer-on-peer full-spectrum warfare? The Ukrainians.

You know who's asking for more MBTs? The Ukrainians.

Enough said.

 

[Brad Sallows]

seems like a good number to send, we sent 4 M777s, that is almost 1/10 of of total guns. So 8 tanks, and 80 some odd tanks, 30 some odd are running we are sending 10% of the tank force. If we sent 10% of the air force or navy that would have real impacts.

Maybe. It complicates logistics, though. Be better to give them full battalion's worth of any particular major equipment.

 

[Kirkhill]

Likewise if everybody else contributed 10% of their active fleets.

Maybe the Ukrainians would also like 66 LAVs and 50 TAPVs?

Hmmm....

Minus 4 M777s
Minus 8 Leo2A4
Minus 4 AEVs?
Minus 39 ACSV

Restock with 56 Tracks?

Plus up by donating

Minus 66 LAVs
Minus 50 TAPVs

Also restock with Tracks (116?)

Total Tracked element of 162 new vehicles?
To accompany remaining fleet of 34 Leo 2A4, 20 Leo 2A4M and 20 Leo 2 A6M plus AEVs and ARVs.

That's 236 Heavy Tracks.

With

550 LAV
321 ACSV
500 TAPV (suitable for factory refit)

Some unknown number of BvS10 Viking/Beowulfs?

 

[Kirkhill]

You know who is best situated to assess and inform the rest of us of whether or not MBTs are still relevant and needed in modern peer-on-peer full-spectrum warfare? The Ukrainians.

You know who's asking for more MBTs? The Ukrainians.

Enough said.

The Ukrainians are also asking for fighter jets.

Apparently they don't need them. Which begs the question of what point is an Air Superiority Air Force if their capabilities can be met by other means.

But Biden officials have been adamant that Ukraine does not need F-16s based on the current state of the war.

“[The Ukrainians are] about to mount a significant counteroffensive,” White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan said at a CNN town hall event on Thursday night. “From our perspective, F-16s are not the key capability for that offensive. It is the stuff that we are moving rapidly to the front lines now.”

Biden rules out sending Ukraine F-16s ‘for now’

President Biden in a new interview said he is ruling out providing F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine “for now,” despite pleas from Ukrainian leadership for the planes in their war against Russia. “He do…

thehill.com