Bush vs Kerry

[Spr.Earl]

: Thanks for backing that up. You've changed alot of minds with that little gem ......or stripped yourself of any credibility you had....unless its a joke?

Unfortunately I posted in anger and do apologise as I had just been out with some friends and we had a very heated discussion over a few wobbly pop's.
Yes I should have been more thoughtfull but I still stand by what I said.

I have done my research from all angles from the Conspiracy Nutters to U.S. web sites pro and con.,the best site I found was this one but be carefull reading it as you can get side tracked very easily.

After his statement of " Using his Political Capital" I wish the people of the U.S. the best of Luck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush#Business_and_political_career

P.S. Here another site some here don't agree with it but it's from the ground side of what going on with ground forces in Iraq.

http://www.sftt.org/index.html

Heres David H. Hackworth's C.V.

Military Awards



ENTITLEMENTS OF COL. DAVID H. HACKWORTH
(U.S. ARMY, RETIRED)

AWARDS & DECORATIONS
COLONEL DAVID H. HACKWORTH
(U.S. ARMY, RETIRED)




Individual Decorations & Service Medals:

Distinguished Service Cross (with one Oak Leaf Cluster)
Silver Star (with nine Oak Leaf Clusters)
Legion of Merit (with three Oak Leaf Clusters)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Bronze Star Medal (with "V" Device & seven Oak Leaf Clusters)(Seven of the awards for heroism)
Purple Heart (with seven Oak Leaf Clusters)
Air Medal (with "V" Device & Numeral 34)(One for heroism and 33 for aerial achievement)
Army Commendation Medal (w/ "V" Device & 3 Oak Leaf Clusters)
Good Conduct Medal
World War II Victory Medal
Army of Occupation Medal (with Germany and Japan Clasps)
National Defense Service Medal (with one Bronze Service Star)
Korean Service Medal (with Service Stars for eight campaigns)
Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal
Vietnam Service Medal (2 Silver Service Stars = 10 campaigns)
Armed Forces Reserve Medal
Unit Awards:

Presidential Unit Citation
Valorous Unit Award (with one Oak Leaf Cluster)
Meritorious Unit Commendation
Badges & Tabs:

Combat Infantryman Badge (w/ one Star; representing 2 awards)
Master Parachutist Badge
Army General Staff Identification Badge
Foreign Awards:

United Nations Service Medal (Korea)
Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal with Device (1960)
Vietnam Cross of Gallantry (with two Gold Stars)
Vietnam Cross of Gallantry (with two Silver Stars)
Vietnam Armed Forces Honor Medal (1st Class)
Vietnam Staff Service Medal (1st Class)
Vietnam Army Distinguished Service Order, 2d Class
Vietnam Parachutist Badge (Master Level)
Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation
Republic of Vietnam Presidential Unit Citation
Republic of Vietnam Gallantry Cross Unit Citation (with three Palm oak leaf clusters)
Republic of Vietnam Civil Actions Honor Medal, First Class Unit Citation (with one Palm oak leaf cluster)
World War II Merchant Marine Awards:

Pacific War Zone Bar
Victory Medal

Note: As per a Department of the Army audit conducted by COL Pam Mitchell, Chief Personnel ServiceSupport Division on May 6 1999.

 

[pappy]

Hackworth's a great TRUE American hero, too bad he wasn't running for Pres in 2004.  While I don't agree with him on everything, it's hard to find any faults in what he says.
About the only problem with Hackworth is he wasn't a Marine  lol 

I think if we look at history, at any war we can find faults in the way it's run.
And in many wars the same mistakes are made again.

Personally I don't understand why so many people OUTSIDE the US are so concerned with Who is our President.
I think personalitys are getting too much attention, we (the world) are focusing too much no the personalitys of our leaders
rather then working togather to solve the problems we can solve.  Sadly not all problems have solutions.  But the western nations have too much
common history and dependence on each other to be fighting among ourselves over one leaders personality.  The streotypical conculsions people make
based on these personalitys are the real problem.
As well as the agendas each nation has over the next, as we all fail to work togarther and overcome the problems facing all of us our enemies get stronger.
Islamic extremists have been a problem for the west for many many years, it's not just Bin Laden and the current cicumstances in Iraq.
We are failing to look at the big picture that affects us all.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I think if we look at history, at any war we can find faults in the way it's run.
And in many wars the same mistakes are made again.

Personally I don't understand why so many people OUTSIDE the US are so concerned with Who is our President.

Amen. I just want it done and over with, ASAP and with whatever/whoever it takes.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

OK, this I had to post, check out the line about the election being devastating..etc.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/nyc-suic1107,0,2157220,print.story?coll=ny-nynews-headlines
Man commits suicide at Ground Zero
 

November 6, 2004, 7:11 PM EST

Distraught over the re-election of President George W. Bush, a Georgia man traveled to New York City, went to Ground Zero and killed himself with a shotgun blast, police said yesterday.

The suicide victim, Andrew Veal, 25, was discovered just before 8 a.m. yesterday when a worker for the Millennium Hotel looking at Ground Zero from an upper floor saw a man lying atop the concrete structure through which the 1 and 9 subway lines run.

The worker, thinking the man was sleeping, alerted colleagues and the Port Authority police were notified.

But when they got to Veal's body, they realized he had killed himself with a shot to the head from a .12-gauge shotgun.

No suicide note was found, but according to a Port Authority police source, family members said Veal, a registered Democrat, was despondent over Bush's defeat of Sen. John Kerry. A second source said Veal, who lived in Athens, Ga., and worked for the University of Georgia, was also adamantly opposed to the war in Iraq.

More than three years after the Sept. 11 terror attacks, Ground Zero remains a top tourist attraction, the site rife with symbolism.

Visitors there yesterday reacted in different ways to news of Veal's suicide. Bobbie Jensen, 54, a Republican from Phoenix, said that while she understood how Bush's victory disturbed those who dislike him, Ground Zero is not the place to act on those emotions.

"You can be upset about the war, about Bush, but this is a sacred place," she said. "You got to accept what happened and not kill yourself." But Frank Franca, an East Village artist and registered Democrat, suggested the suicide was symbolic.

"I'm very moved by it," he said. "Obviously, this person was devastated. I can see why he would come here."

Franca's friend, Jeffim Kuznetsov, a 25-year-old student from Russia who lives in Atlanta, said the suicide is evidence of how deeply many Americans were affected by Kerry's defeat.

"It's a national tragedy," he said. "This election is devastating to all who believe in democracy."

Another visitor to Ground Zero, Arushi Raval, 34, a businesswoman who lives in Chelsea, said Veal might have been active in campaigning for Kerry, only to taste defeat.

"Maybe he felt ineffective," she said of the victim. "You feel ineffective if you tried and it all failed.

"I know so many New Yorkers who are depressed over this."
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.

 

[a_majoor]

What a wasted life. If he really wanted to do something, he could have sucked it up, and gone to work bringing the Democrats to an realistic appraisal of the world around them and developing policy alternatives that matched the real world.

I can't believe this was the party of Woodrow Wilson, FDR and John F Kennedy

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Social Darwinism in action ...

 

[winchable]

Eduard Chibas was a Cuban radio announcer who shot himself on the air when Batista siezed power in a coup in 1952.
He did it because the people were complacent and when Batista took power most of them just said "ah well"
He said "Wake Up" or something like that, then shot himself.

It's not often you see North American politics get heated like this.
In general this election is quite interesting because it seems like the American people have stumbled out of a political nap and gotten worked up about democracy and freedom again.
Now if only more people here would stand up and really give the complacent system here a shaking.

Lets not speak ill of the dead anyway gents, regardless of his reasons.

 

[pappy]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm

I suggest everyone take a little look at this link and get some perspective on the 2004 Vote.  Sort of gives you an idea that MAYBE most of the US wanted Bush.

If some Moron wants to kill himself over a Presidential Vote, well he'd do the same over Britney Spears newest divorce, misplaceing hi tin-foil hat etc.

The Gene Pool needs a cleaning from time to time.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Che,
Eduard Chibas was a Cuban radio announcer who shot himself on the air when Batista siezed power in a coup in 1952.
He did it because the people were complacent and when Batista took power most of them just said "ah well"
He said "Wake Up" or something like that, then shot himself.

I don't get the point here, in my opinion based on this info, Eduard Chibas took the cowards way out. So instead of sticking around to try and force change , he became an anecdote.

 

[winchable]

Well that could be argued, a martyr is a valuable thing if you're trying to wake people up or get the hearts and minds of a people switched on.
And I wasn't talking about his effect on the cuban election as such, it was a scam anyhow.
I was pointing it out to say that you rarely find people here who will get that worked up about politics that they will give their life this day in age over something like that. Perhaps not actually gving their life but in the same spirit they recognise that you either live free or die.(God I love those license plates)
Wasn't quite comparing him directly to this guy either. This guy seemed more upset that his guy didn't win in a fair election not that the system was so corrupt that elections couldn't be held.

Anyhow, Chibas did have a profound effect in the longrun I would say, he had a very close friend named Fidel who was moved to action by a plethora of things one of which was the death of Chibas. (another day another thread for that argument if you'd like)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

See I thought you WERE trying to make a comparison and it just didn't fit, in my opinion.

 

[winchable]

Nono, I would say this gent in question was running away from this Issue whereas Chibas was trying to get other people to realise there was an issue.

 

[rw4th]

Re: guy who committed suicide.

Definitely Darwin at work, but what's scary to me is this: If he though killing himself was an effective way to protest, then how much of a leap would it have been for him to strap explosives to his chest and walk into a federal building.

 

[a_majoor]

We already saw what happened when 19 people who "thought that way" boarded various flights on the morning of Sept 11, 2001.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Re: guy who committed suicide.

Definitely Darwin at work, but what's scary to me is this: If he though killing himself was an effective way to protest, then how much of a leap would it have been for him to strap explosives to his chest and walk into a federal building.

*shivers*................I would have never thought about it that way but you are correct.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Quote,
Re: guy who committed suicide.

Definitely Darwin at work, but what's scary to me is this: If he though killing himself was an effective way to protest, then how much of a leap would it have been for him to strap explosives to his chest and walk into a federal building.

*shivers*................I would have never thought about it that way but you are correct.

Timothy McVeigh ...


Just went back to the article: "This election is devastating to all who believe in democracy."

Poor b*****d lost his life due to a misunderstanding ... maybe he could've just bought a dictionary to see what "democracy" actually means.

Or maybe he could have just taken a pciture of himself: http://72.3.131.10/gallery/1/

 

[a_majoor]

"This election is devastating to all who believe in democracy."

It is scary when you take a close look at what happened. Bush supporters were subjected to various forms of abuse (property damage like cars with Bush bumper stickers being keyed, signs destroyed/defaced), Republican offices were vandelized and even shot at, Republican voters reported being intimidated at the polls. The media rolled out a huge campaign to defeat Bush, even resorting to "scoops" of forged documents and attempting to ambush the administration in the closing hours of the campaign with the bogus "missing explosives" story (contradicted by an embedded NBC correspondent who was with the first units on the scene). Senator Kerry wasn't asked any provocative questions about his anti war activities in the 1970s, his Senate record in the 1980s and 90s, his military record (including some indications he may have been released form the Navy with a less than honourable discharge), his contradictory economic pronouncements...

While President Bush had many weaknesses that could have been addressed (spending, immigration policy, Prescription Drug plan, etc.), the Democrats chose to use the tools of a much older political philosophy. The individual and group attempts to intimidate and discourage Republican voters is a small step away from "Brownshirt" tactics, and the Media resorted to versions of the "Big Lie". (Given the Democrat's obsession with implementing a Socialist agenda in American politics, it is well to remember the "other" party I have alluded to was known as the National Socialist German Worker's Party...)

Democracy requires "free markets and free minds" to use an old expression. If one party or group is attempting to shut down the free flow of information, or prevent the free expression of opinion, then there is a great deal to be worried about. The idea of Howard Dean as "Hitler lite" or Kerry as a bumbling Chaplinesque "Great Dictator" may be strange, disturbing or funny; but it won't be too much longer before someone notices the willing tools out there and begins to organize them for real.

 

[Kirkhill]

The media doesn't seem to have given up in the face of the election.  They seem to have adopted the fall-back position that they are now the only effective opposition along with the only source of the absolutes in truth.

I used to watch CNN but I can't bring myself to do it any more.  Any time I click on there is another Democrat being interviewed or another anchor criticising the government.  Credibility???

On the plus side it does seem that others are taking notice.  It is starting to be suggested that the worst thing that could happen to a Democrat in 2008, when they are running against Rudy Giuliani, is that they get endorsed by the New York Times, CNN, CBS and Hollywood.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The only thing democracy really requires is that the losers of each election accept the result.

 

[Infanteer]

Moving along, I notice that Bush has dumped John Ashcroft as the AG.  That is probably the first step into mending fences, that guy was one of the people I never liked in Bush's circle.