Browning 9mm

[Kal]

Thanks for the clarification, Kevin; I didn't think they were manufatured so large for the .45 ACP. 

 

[mudgunner49]

They dont

230gr is the "standard" .45ACP round   -- for .45LC revolvers you can get cast 300gr bullets but they woudl never feed in a .45ACP.

CH1 - Your data is impossible   230gr can be bumped to 925 but it is well above SAAMI - and more importantly NATO pressure (higher than SAAMI) they are definetly unsafe and will rupture the brass and lead to a KABOOM -- your "load" would destroy a pistol.   Period - No if ands or butts.

Further to KevinB's comments, I call BS on this one.   I have some pretty extensive experience with the .45 Super and a couple of it's progenitors and 230gr@1100 is possible, but only in .45 Super brass (or shortened, reamed out .308 Win.) and with a fully supported barrel.   To attempt this sort of thing in an unmodified 1911 chambered in .45 ACP is foolish to say the least, not to mention extremely irresponsible.   There should be a filter for this sort of crap on the Internet - if I could invent one I'd never have to work again!!

I have also used the 255 gr LSWC for the .45 Colt in the ACP and got about 750 FPS out of it, however the gun and mags had to be tuned for this load specifically - for games only, not for "serious" use.   This recipe does clean a table full of bowling pins very effectively.

Stick to the smoke and mirrors on your airsoft forums...


YMMV

Blake

 

[Kal]

Black Hills manufacturers a .45 ACP round of 230gr and a velocity of 950fps.  Is this round no good then?  or for only +P rated firearms?

 

[CH1]

Ok guys, Clarification time!

    Most of the ammo my .45 digests is US issue, circa 1944 - mid 60's because I have access to an almost unlimited amount.  According to the US charts, this is 250 gr, FMJ.  Every once in a while I will chrono a few rounds from each box, and they sit tight around 950 FPS.  The hopped loads are special occasion and not used often.  I have had my armourer check for excess wear and I am ever vigilante.
   
    As I am not a babe in the woods, I am well aware of what can happen & DO NOT reccomend any body use this load.  I build this load for use in this pistol only.  I check headspace constantly, and check all the stress points even under "normal" use.  I use the same procedures across any fire arm.  It is always SAFETY First, whether in the field or RSO on the range.  It has been a long standing habit to check the last casings out of what ever is in my hands at the moment, & do a quick casing check. 

    At this point both the 1911 & 92F have digested a few cases of ammo, & continue to function quite well & accurately.  As for mag capacity, prior to the last bout of gun control, you could buy extended mags.  Years before that we used to build &/or modify mags to fit the occasion.

    Enuff said.  Thanks guys for the come back.

 

[Grunt]

There is nothing wrong with the FN/Inglis Hipower pistol, it is easy to shoot and handles very well (I have one ;D).  The Issued hipower just needs better sights and an ambidextrous safety.

 

[DrSbaitso]

Forgive me if it's already been mentioned, but what about the new Para High caps? I've never used one, but they seem like they would meet all the requirements for a replacement. Sturdy, high capacity, and available in .45, .40, or 9mm. Aaaand made in canada!

 

[KevinB]

Para's QC sucks.

We are much better off going to the Sig P226 or Glock 17 (as much as I dislike Glocks - it is the perfect pistol).

What we need is a pull and bang pistol (given the amount of training the avg soldier gets with the pistol).  Unfortunately with the BHP many get nervous with it cocked and locked and we dont have a good holster for that sort of carry.

In an ideal world we would be shooting a few hundred rounds a month and able to stay competant with the system, as such C&L woudl be nice for you get the same trigger pull ever shot.

 

[big bad john]

I have used the Sig P226 for my last four years in the Marines.  Prior to that I was a tried and true HP35 9mm man.  You can't have my Sig back.  It is perfect.  I am in love with it for accuracy and reliability.

 

[KevinB]

BBJ - I agree that the SIg is an excellent piece of kit - however the decocker is a problem for stupid people - as a result I dont think it is the idela issue gun - guaranteed some moron (insert applicable CF member here) will put it back in the holster still cocked.

Knowing some assaulter type fellows - several of them wish for a 1911 style .45 - why 1) If you have to shoot someone with a pistol use a .45 2) Single action every time - even a fellow who shoots 50k a year now and then has the occassional hic-up with the double/single trigger pull transition - not a big deal for regualr folk - but doing HR surgical missions that could cost (and is why the US team use custom 1911's for that role)

So given that regular troops will never get the rounds count to before familiar with the pistol - the Glock is the best choice - draw, goes bang, reholster - no safeties, decockers etc.  and it works in 9mm (the other calibre Glocks have some issues)

I am very happy with the BHP - I have my own custom Novak gun - that I put at least 10k down range a year from - so my transition to a work T series Inglis is not big deal - add some skateboard tape and put my own grips on it and voila same fell as my home gun.

Givne that we have no money for a pistol replacment the sight shoudl be replaced with Trjicon Tritium sights - much better under any background or lighting condition.

 

[big bad john]

The Sig had one of the same qualities that endeared the BHP to me.  You can abuse it and it still functions. 

 

[NATO Boy]

keep it as is, replace with a PDW (like the FN P90, HK PDW), replace with a 5.56mm weapon (perhaps like a C8 or even shorter) or replace with another pistol.

In terms of filling in the blanks, here's some interesting options:

1. Keep it as is: Well, haven't we been doing this since 1944 since it's a proven design...? It's now 2005, and the Inglis HPs are getting harder to maintain.

2. Replace with a PDW: The Sterling used to be in huge numbers; why not bring back the war stocks (unless they're gone? HK SMGs are expensive and thus difficult to issue in mass; special PDWs like the FN P90 and HK MP7 use non-NATO Standard ammo (5.7X28 and 4.*X** mm respectively.)

3. Replace with a 5.56 weapon: The C8 is what first comes to mind (since it's in the system now) but it's too bulky for replacing a pistol. One interesting weapon I've seen is the Olympic Arms OA 93 AR Pistol or even a Select-Fire model(Antonio Banderas used one in desperado a small AR design with the gas and spring system mounted forward of the upper receiver (like a ZM LR 300) but it's only about 12 - 16" overall length. Logistically, it's great; it uses 5.56, it's fed by any STANAG/M-16 mag, uses most m-16 parts, and it's got a better range than most 9mm sidearms.

4. Replace with another pistol: The Sig 226 (or is it the 228) is in the system now; the Glock 17 or Glock 19 are rugged Polymer Pistols that fire 9x19mm and even have slightly higher mag capacities.

Unfortunately, all these options cost money. The Sig seems to be getting a good start (considering my unit won't see them for another decade, lol) and funding trials on a new 5.56 weapon or PDW becomes moot when CTS and other pronects are underway.

"Sigh" but it would be nice to have a Glock 17...

 

[Bomber]

Some day the PDW project might will ramp up again, and we could be in for some really fancy guns.  The MP7 is a wicked weapon, 40 rounds in your hand, held in the mag in your palm.  Plus it is light enough for someone with "healthy" upper body strength to wield easily.  fitted with the EOtech, it would probably make the best CSS weapon.  The P90 is to "out there" for me with that crazy mag system, 50 rounds is nice, but it felt awkward to change the mag.  And with the woes this board has with the tac vest, wait until you try to find a place to put an 11 inch long magazine.  I have no experience with pistols other than the HP on the range once or twice a year, but if the FN 5.7 is up to its hype, and i think it is, I think they might want to look at adopting it.  Punching through body armour at 100m is pretty impressive.  Though this might be a little bit politically unsavoury, apparently the cops won;t even entertain this weapon for fear of it getting into the hands of criminals.

 

[NATO Boy]

if the FN 5.7 is up to its hype, and i think it is, I think they might want to look at adopting it. Punching through body armour at 100m is pretty impressive. Though this might be a little bit politically unsavoury, apparently the cops won;t even entertain this weapon for fear of it getting into the hands of criminals.

Not only that, but apparently FN Herstal prohibits the export of 5.7x28mm to Western Countries; as well, most of their Five seveN products are only being marketed to Law Enforcement...a shame if this is true.

 

[KevinB]

The 5.7 is all HYPE

The round sacrifices terminal effects to gather penetrative qualities.   The round is about as effective as stabbing someone with an icepick.

Now you may kill someone with an icepick after a few dozen stabs - but it will take them time to bleed out - this time is the crucial variable in a CQB scenario.
To quote a rather respected US military ammuntion guru LCdr Gary Roberts USNR

Terminal Wounding Effects of FN 5.7 x 28 mm Projectile.

1. Clearly the 5.7 x 28 mm serves NO purpose. I have personally
fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue
destruction is far less than we see with 5.56 mm 62 gr M855 FMJ fired
from M4's;.45 ACP 230 gr FMJ fired from M1911's will crush more tissue
and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is
a good way to ensure mission failure.
2. Copies of several papers which have described the incredibly poor
terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90 are enclosed.
· Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: â Å“Wound Profile of the FN
Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound
Ballistic Review . 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
· Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review .
1(1):46; Winter 1991.
· Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound
Ballistic Review . 3(1):44-45; 1997.
· FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests
1989-1995 . Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau
of Investigation.
· Hayes C: â Å“Personal Defense Weaponsâ ”Answer in Search of a
Questionâ ?, Wound Ballistic Review . 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
· Roberts G: â Å“Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance
of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 ,
Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulantâ ?, AFTE Journal .
30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
· Roberts G: â Å“Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190
FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.â ?,
AFTE Journal . In Press.
3. The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had
insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but
the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small
permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch
cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, it
offers the same wounding potential as a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9
mm NATO M882 FMJ makes a larger wound.
4. Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and
military special operations applications, such as the 9 mm 147 gr JHP,
.40 S&W 180 gr JHP, .45 ACP 230 gr JHP, several .223 60-87 gr JHP/JSP,
12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better
penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to
reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28
mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement
agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to
avoid adoption of any 5.7 x 28 mm weapon system.
5. Additional information on wound ballistics is enclosed. If you
need further information, I can be reached at:XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

If you want contact info for LCdr Roberts hit me up on the DIN




FWIW FN does sell the 5.7 pistols and civilian legal (semi auto) P90 in the US...

and in case anyone is wondering Dahlstrom and Powley are RCMP depot folk at the fireams cell there, the others quoted do similar things for their departments or units - any one unit looking at this system that has put some sort of testing into it has made the same determination -- DON'T DO IT

 

[mudgunner49]

Not only that, but apparently FN Herstal prohibits the export of 5.7x28mm to Western Countries; as well, most of their Five seveN products are only being marketed to Law Enforcement...a shame if this is true.

Not true - it is the Canadian gov't that has made the 5.7 ammo "prohibited"...

Bomber, if you are engaging with a pistol (ANY pistol) at 100m, you brought the wrong gal to the dance... go stand in the corner!!


Blake

 

[Kal]

Kevin, spot on as usual.  I believe I said the exact same thing about 3 months ago in a similiar thread.  Springfield XD thread, I think...  Interesting enough, stabbing with the icepick would actually be more effective.  There's an FBI statistic that uncovered that about 80% of people stabbed, die from their wounds, compared to only 20% when shot. 

 

[LordOsborne]

As i understand it, the P90 has found its way to some law enforcement agencies. i even found an article where a Texas SWAT trooper managed to kill a suspect during an altercation. (granted the suspect was also hit from 5.56 ammo as well) give it a read over:

http://www.trmagonline.com/Spring2003TR/spring2003experienceswiththefnp90.htm

 

[Bomber]

KevinB, thanks for the info.  I will ask the small arms guys if they are still even entertaining weapon, this if all this is written about its ability to not be effective.  MudGunner, I can't even formulate a snappy comback, I have delete about 30 lines trying to incorporate shooting, 100m, and dancing girls, but I can't.  If am soldier only has a PDW and is competent enough to shoot it, it may come down to a point where they have to shoot out to 100m.  I don;t know what I am really trying to say, other than maybe the bad guy will be forced to lie down dead, or duck, giving you a chance to also hid, run away, or trust in your PT and charge him, screaming, till you get closer for a better shot.l

 

[badpup]

And you won't have to continue paying the HP a 6 figure income for the rest of it's shelf life 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

And you won't have to continue paying the HP a 6 figure income for the rest of it's shelf life  

Huh?