Browning 9mm

[armd_recce]

Yes, my heretical opinion is that we‘d do well with a flat top C8 with an Aimpoint Comp ML2 or compact ACOG to replace the C7 outright. Would still be effective out to 300m and weigh about 7.5lbs loaded. Maybe even split the difference and go with a 16" bbl...profiled for the M203 of course.
The Glock 19 is the compact version of the Glock 17. The select fire model is the Glock 18. Nifty noisemaker, but not really useful IMHO.

 

[vember0]

i have no milatary experience but i do know my pistols,browing highpower an the sig are both nice, but i like the sig better,for diffrent reasons, as far as 9mm caliber goes, its easy to control and accurate, but if i had t resort to a pistol for self protection id like a higher caliber for more stoping power and something relieable like a 45 sig or even a desert eagle, the reason i leave glocks out, i dont like the way they feel or point, just a personal thing i guess, alltho the ones iv shot seem to be unjamable with any ammo but non jacketed ,i find lead bullets get chewed up onhe loading ramp once in awhile

 

[Jarnhamar]

Having a beefed up C8 would probably be a big no no however. "It looks too agressive".
One can still dream though.

I think i would prefer a pistol with more hitting power then a 9mm due to all the body armor which is readily available.

 

[armd_recce]

That‘s why god invented head shots.
Body armour is classified by NIJ threat levels, eg level II and III A will defeat 9mm/.44 mag class. Probably the most common levels, and comparable to the newer issue armour. The USMC vest with insert is a true level III, or up to 7.62 NATO.
So if they‘re wearing a vest, no pistol cal will reliably penetrate... Of course I‘m excluding the 5.7x28 FN, but that‘s another kettle of fish.

 

[Marauder]

Imagine my surprise to learn that my Regiment does indeed have C8s that belong to them (ostenibly for FIBUA), but we still use the C7 because it "fires further"....
Yeah, we‘re a regiment of ****in snipers...
Give me a C8/M203 combo any ****in day o‘ the week....

 

[Jarnhamar]

Head shots are a lot harder to make then body shots. I‘ve seen enough police videos (whos primary weapon is the pistol and get a lot more training on it then a soldier would) miss someone their shooting at completly at around 10 feet away (sometiems less). I think i would prefer to hit someone in the chest of center body (even if they had armor) with a stronger pistol round and maybe knock them down or stun them then to try and make a head shot with an LBV and helmet on and probably shaking with addrenilin.
Then again my favorite weapon is the C3. I prefer far rather then short.

 

[armd_recce]

Good points Ghost, but I think you‘d be horrified at the general level of police marksmanship and skill at arms. They qualify on static targets at known distances, without having to move and acquire targets (well, my only brief on it was from a metro officer) For all the reasons you mentioned, that‘s why you train in ‘tactical‘ settings under pressure (usually time) to develop CQB pistol skills. Something like IDPA.
Yes, head shots are too much to expect from soldiers in general who have many other and arguably more important things to train for. But carrying a big bore pistol won‘t give you a quantum leap in defeating body armour. Someone mentioned the desert eagle, about the biggest pistol you could get but probably one of the worst for tactical purposes. Big, heavy, heavy recoil, long, etc etc etc.
To sum up my ramble, I‘m just saying that there‘s not really anything a .45 or bigger will bring to the party that 9mm won‘t (and that‘s coming from a die hard .45 ACP fan. Nary a round of 9mm in the house). Plus don‘t forget that of all the 9mm‘s faults, penetration isn‘t one of them - it will by a wide margin out penetrate the .45

Oops, forgot to say that there are many cases of police exchanging fire at distances of 5‘ and no one getting hit... Just because they carry a sidearm all day every day doesn‘t mean their the SMEs on the subject.
And whack whoever said the C7 will ‘shoot farther‘. The only thing you gain with the C7 vice the C8 is ~50m of distance where the round will be above 2700 fps, the magical number for it to fragment. Below 2700 fps it stays intact. C8 is more than suitable for issue as a primary weapon, especially when you the vast majority of fights occur at considerably less than 300m where you‘d need the C7.

 

[portcullisguy]

Schewerpunkt, that is not entirely true.

I have several friends who recently graduated Ontario Police College and are members of the Toronto Police Service. They came through at different times, and all reported the same thing:

During recruit training, you spend a LOT of time on the range, both at OPC and afterwards. They do live fire training with Simunition in realistic situations that call for judgement and they do build up training on the range, starting with static targets, in good light, to moving targets in poor light, with/without cover, strong-hand, weak-hand, etc.

Even when I worked security, our lame one-day firearms course included scenarios involving dim light and shooting from behind cover, with the wrong hand, reloading from behind cover, etc. Unfortunately, moving targets could not be reproduced safely at the time.

I think you will find police recruits trained to a much higher standard of pistol marksmanship than the "old dogs" who got on when dinosaurs walked the earth and they were first issued a 6-shooter.

Now, annual requalification requires a minimal amount of effort, from what I hear, and it could be that due to a lack of available time to maintain skills, police officers gradually get worse over the course of their careers.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Schwerpunkt i never thought about it like that. I think your right though, because of how little difference between the pistol rounds theres not an quantum leaps in advantages or disadvantages?

Whats the story behind the five-seven or 5.7 mm? I‘ve heard a little about it (used it in a computer game heh) but nothing factual. Its suposed to penitrate body armor better?

I read that 80% of the worlds population lives in built up areas (cities). Thankfully the canadian army is just starting to now put a bigger importance on FIBUA training. Personally i think, with the odd exception, the days of trench warfare or viet nam type settings int he woods are all but gone. Most of our "enemies" will be in cities and towns, more often then not hiding behind a child or non-combatent. Choosing a C8 over a C7 just seems like the right thing to do. You might lose a bit of distance or bit of accuracy at 3 and 4 hundred meters but can‘t see that being a great disadvantage against the C8‘s size and weight and the idea that at 400 meters its more effective to hit someone with MG fire.
I did a 2 week fibua excersise with the british army in belgium, i really thought their SA80s were crap except for when we were inside the buildings how easy they were to weild fire from cover and climb latters and through windows with.

 

[armd_recce]

Ok, I was being too critical of cop shooting skills, based on a buddy of mine that was in metro. As you said, the skills degrade rapidly and the annual qual is a static range type affair. High standards to pass, but not suitable for tactical evaluation.

Ghost, take a look at the FN web site for info on the 5.7mm, http://www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/ss190/ss190.htm the FiveSeven is actually the pistol that takes that round (as does the P 90). It was specifically designed to defeat body armour and is one of the few (actually the only now that I think about it) cartridge specifically prohibited in Canada. And FN restricts sales of it to LE and military anyway. Excellent little round for a PDW.

I agree with you fully about the C8, shorter bbls are no less accurate, and in fact may be more accurate (less length for a given outside diameter makes for a proportionally stiffer bbl). The only important loss, apart from excess weight, is the distance to which the rounds will fragment. I was wrong before, the distance is actually more like 100m shorter with the 14.5" C8 bbl compared to the 20" C7 bbl. I prefer the 16" length as a compromise, in the C8 / M4 configuration with a collapsing stock. Bottom line, a full size rifle isn‘t really necessary at typical individual weapons ranges. Most evidence indicates that the majority of fights occur at less than 100m, something like over 80%. Especially, as you say, in urban areas.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Another modification i really like is what i saw with the french commandos (I really hope the origionator of this thread doesn‘t mind how far off topic its going heh) and what they did to the C9. Up till that point i really didn‘t like it. 200 round box that always made noise, the box would fall leaving you running with 200 rounds trailing behind you, after a good 200 rounds it starts jamming. The french soldiers had a C9 with a short barrel, a barrel handle that folded down somewhat and lastly a collapsable stock that over all made the weapon VERY short, the lenght of a C8. I still don‘t like the jamming factor of the C9 but those modifications sure raised the cool factor of it.

 

[Zoomie]

From experience I would say that the C8 was an absolute joy to carry over the C7. Lighter, smaller and easier to stow in your vehicle. A couple downsides do exist with its present configuration and I think we have all touched on them (ie. Barrel length, range, accuracy). Another issue that I found was also its overall reliability. I found that with the collapsible stock and the size of the return spring, that the C8 was more prone to feed stoppages than that of its bigger cousin. Call me a stickler, but I would rather have that extra weight and length, if I was guaranteed a good burst on auto when I was storming "the" trench or clearing a room.

 

[BillP]

In regards to replacing/modifying the C7 to a compact C8 configuration, with perhaps a 16" barrel as the compromise between the 2, I spotted this site:
http://www.mcaroy.com/cadpat2.htm

Scrolling down,It shows CF personnel with the new Cadpat kit as well as a very interesting looking C8 with a few modualr goodies attached to it! Perhaps the CF might be eventually looking at going the C8/M4 route??

 

[Zoomie]

Most probably those weapons were on loan from Diemaco Canada, the weapons manafacturer from Kitchener, ON. Check out their website :
www.diemaco.com
All the weps can be found there.

 

[CH1]

Sorry, my personal favourite is still the Colt/Springfield 1911 A2 250gr @1150 feet/second.  the only shorcoming is the 7 rnd mags.  but i fixed that problem.

 

[KevinB]

Sorry, my personal favourite is still the Colt/Springfield 1911 A2 250gr @1150 feet/second.   the only shorcoming is the 7 rnd mags.   but i fixed that problem.

CH1 - Okay answer me this if there are 8 and 10 rds .45 mags available how do you figure you fixed the problem.  Secondly please show me a 250gr .45aCP round @ 1150  - the Remington 185gr JHP +P round is 1140fps  even the Corbon 185gr is 1150  Now the 230gr Remington Golden Sabre is @ 875 FPS.

Dont get me wrong I am a .45 afficonado - but I have one and I know what to feed it.

 

[Kal]

I was wordering the exact same thing.  Seeing as 250gr is a huge bullet; I wasn't even aware rounds of that seize were manufactured commercially for the .45

 

[CH1]

Standard Mil issue for the .45 was 250 gr FMJ @ either 850 or950 Fps(grey moment again).  I use jacked up rnds in mine.  I'm very into Bang Bang who went there.  There is some commercial mags for the ACP that will hold 10 rnds, but it is fairly easy to make a longer one.  Draw back is that they catch on every thing & are awkward.  I still have US surplus issue rnds that chrono pretty good.  Not teaching much any more and facts are shuffled to the rear.

 

[CH1]

By the way it is a nice piece! Looks like your armourer did a nice job.  I use the Springfield Armoury model.  A little tighter in the action & slight change to metalurgy from what I found when I got mine, many moons past.  It's seen a fair amt of use without feed or wear problems.  Also went to a better bushing in front, & fine tuned the trigger.  Other than that mine is stock.

 

[KevinB]

I was wordering the exact same thing.   Seeing as 250gr is a huge bullet; I wasn't even aware rounds of that seize were manufactured commercially for the .45

They dont

230gr is the "standard" .45ACP round  -- for .45LC revolvers you can get cast 300gr bullets but they woudl never feed in a .45ACP.

CH1 - Your data is impossible  230gr can be bumped to 925 but it is well above SAAMI - and more importantly NATO pressure (higher than SAAMI) they are definetly unsafe and will rupture the brass and lead to a KABOOM -- your "load" would destroy a pistol.  Period - No if ands or butts.