British Highlander dies in Aberta while on live fire exercise.

[Britney Spears]

I see, so basically the same thing, except you're on your knees, and using a hand instead of a foot.


You better break this down into squads for ease of learning...

 

[Infanteer]

Ahh...I see Britney is the guy who always gets the instructor to repeat the demonstration 5 times after the lesson.... :dontpanic:

 

[Britney Spears]

Yes, I would also like it demonstrated from another angle if possible, and sorry, but why do we need to know this again? ???

Still took a hatless dance for me to get it straight at the end....... :-[

Ok that's enough, My condolences to the young man's friends and family.

 

[Baloo]

Piston? what type of .50 was this?

You are correct Wes, I came back and wondered what I meant.

The receiver group. Not the 'piston'...  :-[ (At least, I was told thats what it was...could have been the bolt group...someone stop me if I;m talking out of my ass yet...)

 

[48Highlander]

Well I gotta admit I've used the stomp method once or twice.  It's not such a horrible thing...as long as you remember to point the muzzle away from your head, and use it as the LAST RESORT.  The last time I did it was roughly 4 years ago with a C6.  I managed to break off the handle just as the platoon began their assault, so at that point it was either have no C6 supporting fire or use my boot on the tiny piece of cocking handle that was still protruding from the rail.  It wasn't a very difficult decision.

 

[KevinB]

It wasn't a very difficult decision.

:

Please, now take this coming from me who is about anything but Elmer the Safety Elephant -- Somethings CAN be justified in training - but something CAN ONLY be justified in Combat -- Any deviations for an accepted practise that could easily result in injury or death - skip it for training.

I've been a Wpn det command and had to tell the Pl Comd - Sorry Sir - its fucking broke.  That is a lot easier to do (and sometimes funny when the CO is watching) than doing slow march with a casket - or filling out Witness staements to validate a CF98

 

[48Highlander]

:

Please, now take this coming from me who is about anything but Elmer the Safety Elephant -- Somethings CAN be justified in training - but something CAN ONLY be justified in Combat -- Any deviations for an accepted practise that could easily result in injury or death - skip it for training.

I've been a Wpn det command and had to tell the Pl Comd - Sorry Sir - its fucking broke.   That is a lot easier to do (and sometimes funny when the CO is watching) than doing slow march with a casket - or filling out Witness staements to validate a CF98

I understand, and agree.  I would never in training attempt something that I wasn't sure was safe.  At the time we were using blanks, so there wasn't much that could go wrong.  Even with live rounds...like I said, as long as you keep a firm grip of the barrel and keep it pointed in a safe direction, it can be done safely, however, I'd hate to give the safety staff a heart-attack, and there's always the slight possibility that I'll slip and blow someones head off, so I wouldn't be pulling it on a live-fire.

Ofcourse, then you get the argument that you should treat blank rounds the way you'd treat live rounds.  Well, should I treat them the way I'd treat live rounds in training....or the way I'd treat live rounds in combat?   nobody ever specifies that.  In any event, I do what I feel is safe and reasonable...if anyone has a problem with it, well they can "voice their opinion" later.

 

[Ammogod]

Ofcourse, then you get the argument that you should treat blank rounds the way you'd treat live rounds.  Well, should I treat them the way I'd treat live rounds in training....or the way I'd treat live rounds in combat?  nobody ever specifies that.  In any event, I do what I feel is safe and reasonable...if anyone has a problem with it, well they can "voice their opinion" later.

Bud some Ammo Tech is going to be filling out a CF 410 on you some day.

"You Train for combat" Treat BLANKS as you would BALL

Follow your drills, Thats why we have drills.

 

[Northern Touch]

You know, isn't there a possibility that it wasn't the stomp method?

He might have opened the feed tray to inspect and then had a round cook off that way.

 

[KevinB]

Apparenty it was the Safety NCO.  Did his last 17 months in Northern Ireland

I was talking to a few people about the incident - there seem to be a lot of confusion as to how it happened.

NT - 5.56mm open breach cook off would be hard pressed to kill - lose eyesight - sure if your close to it.  Apparently the NCO was struck by a round.  I am ending my comments until more info comes out

 

[Pearson]

As i recall there was a Mcpl who used the "stomp" on a C9 during a live fire defensive ex in Wainwright I'd wanna to say summer of '89, the result, AD with self inflicted. Blew the Canada flag off his sleeve from the bullet passing through the armpit from below. I can only imagine the look on the private's face when the Mcpl grabbed the weapon and stomped it. Point to note, weapons conversion had taken place in '87. Mcpl was no doubt reacted instinctivly for a C2, wrong move for a C9 or C6.

I was a just down the line in the turret of a grizzly.

No Duff extraordinarie

Prayers to the young mans family

 

[Dissident]

RIP troop

 

[old medic]

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=676442005

Suspect gun kills second soldier

JOHN INNES

MILITARY investigators have flown to Canada to investigate the death of a Scots soldier killed by his own machine gun, the Ministry of Defence confirmed yesterday.

Dale Cowie, 19, died while on a training exercise near Calgary, during which it was claimed that the Minimi weapon went off in his hands. Last night the MoD refused to rule out that the weapon - and not human error - had been to blame.

Private Cowie's death comes 17 months after Andrew Craw, 21, of the 1st Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, was killed in a similar Minimi gun tragedy. He died as he tried to fix his jammed gun on a training ground in Basra, Iraq.

An MoD spokesman said: "Private Dale had recently been sent to a training camp near Calgary, to prepare for duties in Iraq, where the accident happened. We understand he had been trying to clear a blockage in his Minimi light machine gun when it killed him. His family were given the news on Friday afternoon. At this point , we won't speculate on how this incident came about, but we will be examining the weapon.

"These guns are in widespread use across the armed forces and we are confident of their performance and suitability; there is no question of withdrawing the weapons."

Last night, Pte Cowie's family paid tribute to the teenager, from Buckie, Banffshire, who had joined the army to make a better life for himself. His brother George, 26, said: "It's so sad that it's all ended this way. Dale loved the army. It was a huge step for him to leave everyone behind, but he was really worried about his future and he was determined to make something of himself.

"He saw so many people getting involved in drugs and was fed up working in fish factories, so knew he had to get out. I'll always be proud of him."

Pte Cowie, who was single, left school three years ago and drifted in and out of jobs in the fishing town where he was brought up and had become concerned about what the future held for him until he saw an advert for the army.

He joined up with 1st Battalion The Highlanders a year ago with the full support of his parents Wilma, 43, and Kenneth, 41, who are separated. Pte Cowie went on his first tour of duty to Catterick and was later posted to Germany, on what was his first trip abroad. His brother added: "I spoke to my brother a few days ago and he was full of life and really enjoying Canada. He couldn't believe his luck at being sent there."

Pte Cowie's family are working with the MoD to get his body sent back home. His army colleagues are planning a full military funeral. The regimental flag was last night flying at half mast at the Highlanders' Falling-bostel depot in Germany to pay tribute to the young soldier.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4106638.stm

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005280180,00.html

Both links contain photos of Private Cowie.

 

[old medic]

MOD statement :  http://news.mod.uk/news_headline_story.asp?newsItem_id=3299

The Ministry of Defence very much regrets to confirm the death of Highlander Dale Cowie, aged 19, of the 1st Battalion The Highlanders, during a battlegroup live-firing exercise at the British Army's training area at Suffield in Canada on the night of 16/17 June 2005.

Hldr Cowie died while taking part in a large armoured exercise on the prairie near Suffield in Canada.  His Company (D Coy of The Highlanders) was attached to The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards for the exercise.

Military Police are carrying out a detailed investigation into the circumstances surrounding Hldr Cowie's death.  At this stage it appears the soldier's own weapon discharged by accident.  Everyone across the Army is saddened at the news of this tragedy and our thoughts are with Hldr Cowie's family.

Dale Wood Cowie was one of five brothers and two sisters, all of whom live in Buckie in Morayshire, Scotland.  His parents, who also live in Buckie, were informed of their son's tragic death this morning.

Dale attended Buckie High School.  After a period working in a fish processing factory he was persuaded by his cousin (Hldr Ben Moore, who also serves with The Highlanders) that The Highlanders would offer a more challenging and worthwhile career.

Dale joined the army in April 2004.  He enjoyed his Basic Training in Catterick, Yorkshire and was delighted to be posted to The Highlanders in Germany, joining his cousin and several old friends from Buckie, in November 2004.

Since arriving in Germany, Hldr Cowie had served with D Company, a rifle Coy of The Highlanders, training extensively as a rifleman and becoming an expert on the Warrior Armoured Fighting Vehicle and other weapon systems.

Hldr Cowie showed great promise during his career in The Highlanders, and was liked and respected by all the officers and soldiers of the Regiment.  Despite his young age and short length of time in the Army, his potential had been clearly identified.

When not training Hldr Cowie enjoyed football, and was keen to work his way into the Highlanders team.  A popular soldier, he spent much of his free time socialising with friends and keeping himself fit.

Commanding Officer of The 1st Battalion The Highlanders, Lt Col James Hopkinson OBE, gathered together those of the Battalion not in Canada and informed them of the tragedy.  The Regimental Flag was lowered, and still flies at half-mast in respect and memory of Hldr Cowie.

Lt Col Hopkinson has since released the following statement:

    "It is with deep regret that I have to report the tragic death of Highlander Dale Cowie (D Coy 1 HLDRS).  His death occurred during a routine training exercise in Canada (BATUS).  Our thoughts and sympathies are with his family and friends.  He shall be sorely missed by all of us in the Battalion."

First Cousin of Hldr Cowie, Hldr Ben Moore was told the news separately and, in a short statement, said:

    "Dale will be missed by me, his family, all the soldiers of The Highlanders and by the whole of Buckie."

 

[George Wallace]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but this statement brought back some memories:

Private Cowie's death comes 17 months after Andrew Craw, 21, of the 1st Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, was killed in a similar Minimi gun tragedy. He died as he tried to fix his jammed gun on a training ground in Basra, Iraq.

Recceguy, do you remember when this happened to me back in 94?

Anyone else run in to similar problems?  Prolonged firing, jams and cook offs?

GW

 

[Kat Stevens]

I understand, and agree.  I would never in training attempt something that I wasn't sure was safe.  At the time we were using blanks, so there wasn't much that could go wrong.  Even with live rounds...like I said, as long as you keep a firm grip of the barrel and keep it pointed in a safe direction, it can be done safely, however, I'd hate to give the safety staff a heart-attack, and there's always the slight possibility that I'll slip and blow someones head off, so I wouldn't be pulling it on a live-fire.

Ofcourse, then you get the argument that you should treat blank rounds the way you'd treat live rounds.  Well, should I treat them the way I'd treat live rounds in training....or the way I'd treat live rounds in combat?   nobody ever specifies that.  In any event, I do what I feel is safe and reasonable...if anyone has a problem with it, well they can "voice their opinion" later.

If you wouldn't do it with blank, drill or any other non-lethal thing in the breach, why do it at all? Train as you fight.  I was an Engineer for a little while, and we treated chunks of plasticine EXACTLY as chunks of C4... Same, same...
  The sling works fine if you sit back and brace one foot against the butt.... and slamming the butt works well too, muzzle downrange, o'course...

Kat

 

[squealiox]

Anyone else run in to similar problems?   Prolonged firing, jams and cook offs?

GW

i had an extracted round cook off right in front of me once, just after i had cleared a stoppage on the C9.
i didn't suffer a scratch and wasn't too bothered by it at the time, but it didn't seem like a very healthy thing. i don't seem to recall there was anything in the IAs at the time about pausing to let the round cook off before clearing a stoppage. has this changed? (this was 15 years ago)

 

[Acorn]

George, I had a half-fed .50 round cook off once. It was a stoppage, my #2 was just reaching up to the cover to start the 1st IA, and "bang." Cover flew open and extractor busted. Turns out the previous round split at the base, leaving part of the casing in the breech. There was enough heat (we'd been firing for a while) for the following round to cook off. No injuries, and the gun was OK after a replaced barrel and extractor.

Acorn

 

[GO!!!]

GW,

No, there is not (just checked the Pam on my thumb drive) the theory seems to be that if one is doing the requisite barrel changes, the chamber will generate insufficient heat to cook off a round. In addition to this, as the C9 is an open breech weapon, if it is functioning properly, the round will never be in the chamber for more than a fraction of a second, barring a broken/fouled extractor.

In my limited experience, most stoppages requiring the sling/stomp method are related to weak rebound springs, or link/brass behind the bolt carrier on the bottom of the weapon.

RIP soldier

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but this statement brought back some memories:
Recceguy, do you remember when this happened to me back in 94?

Anyone else run in to similar problems?   Prolonged firing, jams and cook offs?

GW

Yeah I do George, and I still catch myself sitting alone and giggling as I visualize the lopsidedgrin on your half blackened face. Holding up nothing but the handle of the screwdriver, totally oblivious to the paniced goings on around you