Benefits Cut...

[Red Devil]

As a married new recruit currently at Borden undergoing training I don't know if I can actually survive with losing approx. $1000 per month from my paycheck (rations and loss of separation benefits).  I can't sell my house, get my wife relocated to Borden and into a new job in 2 weeks. If I could, the government will have a load of moving expenses to pay, and in a years time we'll have to do the whole thing over again when I get posted.....RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Several times before signing on the dotted line I was asked if I was sure that I could survive, and it was stressed to me how important it was that I shouldn't have financial worries which could be used against me. I had done my homework over the previous 18 months and knew exactly what I would be receiving in wages and benefits, so I confidently answered that everything was good.

I think I just found out what it's like to be a pretty boy in maximum security prison.......if you know what I mean!

Now, I honestly don't know what I'm going to do. It may be that my only option is to VR which will mean the government will have wasted a whole lot of cash putting me through BMQ. I wonder if they'll let me release with 2 weeks notice, just like the notice they've given me?

AND....why do they want to charge me $550ish for rations when my wife and I eat quite comfortably for about $500 per month including toiletries??????

I'm gutted, furious and watching my dreams go down the pan. Any advice would be gratefully received....please don't suggest opting out of the rations, because I've already been told that isn't an option unless I move out of barracks.

  :rage:

PS If anyone wants to question my dedication because I stated that I may have to VR, I just want to remind everyone that when I signed up, I (and everyone else in my situation) agreed to put myself in harms way to protect Canada and it's people, up to and including giving my own life.

 

[MedCorps]

This will pretty much stop most people who are married or have dependents from applying.

Do you know how much easier my life would have been as a Pl Comd / OC / CO if all of my Privates (and Subalterns for that matter) were single and did not have dependents?  My productivity would have gone up 200% from the lack of admin BS in dealing with all of these problems that families in Privates cause.

Oh... it would be like a fantasy leadership and management world.... sigh... now back to reality.

MC

 

[Strike]

As a married new recruit currently at Borden undergoing training I don't know if I can actually survive with losing approx. $1000 per month from my paycheck (rations and loss of separation benefits). 

It's been said before earlier in this thread and is worth repeating.

For those who are afraid they won't be able to cope with the financial change, go to SISIP and have them help you work out a plan.  That's what they do.  Not saying that there won't be a bit of debt incurred, but at least they can help to make the hit a little easier.

 

[George Wallace]

MedCorps

You left out some important information to make a comparison:  What is the "Average Income in Canada"?

Average income after tax by economic family types 2006 - 2010.

Before and After Tax Low-Income Cut-Offs (LICOs), 2006 (Poverty Line)

 

[SupersonicMax]

Do you know how much easier my life would have been as a Pl Comd / OC / CO if all of my Privates (and Subalterns for that matter) were single and did not have dependents?  My productivity would have gone up 200% from the lack of admin BS in dealing with all of these problems that families in Privates cause.

Oh... it would be like a fantasy leadership and management world.... sigh... now back to reality.

MC

Wow... Really?

 

[MedCorps]

George,

Link does not work... but the earning is still less than the average for Canadians.  There is no doubt about that.  Still do able nonetheless. Only 50% of Canadians are above the average.

MC

 

[SupersonicMax]

It's been said before earlier in this thread and is worth repeating.

For those who are afraid they won't be able to cope with the financial change, go to SISIP and have them help you work out a plan.  That's what they do.  Not saying that there won't be a bit of debt incurred, but at least they can help to make the hit a little easier.

So you are now suggesting that it's okay, go to SISIP, they will work out a plan but you'll still get in debt because of the change of policy?  Someone can be managing his finances to the cent and SISIP is of no help.  The system is to blame on that one....

 

[George Wallace]

Fixed.

I do not believe more recent numbers have been published yet.

 

[George Wallace]

And as an employer that demands and orders sacrifices from its members, the CF should show dedication and commitment in return to its most valuable asset... Clearly not happening now.  It is a two-way street, if you want to keep quality personnel in, you need to make some effort in compensating them.  And in this day and age, a pat on the back just won't cut it.  The old "I am dedicated to the CF 100% and would work for free" ain't so anymore.  Money talks and believe it or not, it will keep people happy. 

I agree that the IR system has been abused greatly in the past.  However, penalizing everyone is not the solution. I feel for those on prohibited posting that will essentially have a 900$ gap into their budget as of Sept 1.  It is NOT negligible.

This issue does not affect me, however I find it totally outrageous...

You are correct.  It is a two-way street.  If the bureaucracy in DND and the CF are now doing something that the rest of the Public Service are not, then it can legitimately be grieved.  If thier allowances and benefits are not changing, why should the CF's?  Or at the very least match?

You must also remember that there are people abusing the system for their own gain.  I did not post something, but I will bring it back:

I went close to ten years with no entitlement to IR.  While I was on Tour, my wife found a high paying job two hours away, commuting back and forth on weekends.  She paid her own rent and expenses there.  Later, we bought a house there, which had me paying two mortgages for three years.  Still no IR.  Why?  It was our choice to do this, not the military's.  Does the money get tight?  Of course it does.  In the long term, though, I sold one house and paid off the other.  I bit the bullet for the short term for a long term gain. 

Don't get me wrong.  There are people with legitimate reasons to not get posted on compassionate grounds, such as a child with special medical needs.  Somehow, the wages that a spouse earns don't fit into that category.  I am sure some of the people responding can remember when 1 RCR were moved to Petawawa from London, 1 CMBG complete from Calgary to Edmonton, and 2 PPCLI from Winnipeg to Shilo.  How many spouses had good paying jobs in those instances?

You make choices.  You have to live with them.  At the same time, what does screwing over a fellow Service Member say about your morals and ethics?

 

[Strike]

So you are now suggesting that it's okay, go to SISIP, they will work out a plan but you'll still get in debt because of the change of policy?  Someone can be managing his finances to the cent and SISIP is of no help.  The system is to blame on that one....

I am suggesting no such thing.

What I AM suggesting is that people stop the woe is me attitude that we have been hearing for a million pages now because there are many, many Sr ranks and bases trying to find a way to help out those who are prohibited posting or FORCED on IR and, in the meantime, try and help themselves.

Heaven forbid someone actually take the initiative and try to make the best of a bad situation.

I am simply offering advice in order for that to happen.

 

[George Wallace]

George,

Link does not work... but the earning is still less than the average for Canadians.  There is no doubt about that.  Still do able nonetheless. Only 50% of Canadians are above the average.

MC

Career progression quickly closes those gaps.  One does not remain a Pte in the CF for a long period of time, unlike a day labourer or casual employee who may. 

 

[Red Devil]

You are correct.  It is a two-way street.  If the bureaucracy in DND and the CF are now doing something that the rest of the Public Service are not, then it can legitimately be grieved.  If thier allowances and benefits are not changing, why should the CF's?  Or at the very least match?

You must also remember that there are people abusing the system for their own gain.  I did not post something, but I will bring it back:

I went close to ten years with no entitlement to IR.  While I was on Tour, my wife found a high paying job two hours away, commuting back and forth on weekends.  She paid her own rent and expenses there.  Later, we bought a house there, which had me paying two mortgages for three years.  Still no IR.  Why?  It was our choice to do this, not the military's.  Does the money get tight?  Of course it does.  In the long term, though, I sold one house and paid off the other.  I bit the bullet for the short term for a long term gain. 

Don't get me wrong.  There are people with legitimate reasons to not get posted on compassionate grounds, such as a child with special medical needs.  Somehow, the wages that a spouse earns don't fit into that category.  I am sure some of the people responding can remember when 1 RCR were moved to Petawawa from London, 1 CMBG complete from Calgary to Edmonton, and 2 PPCLI from Winnipeg to Shilo.  How many spouses had good paying jobs in those instances?

You make choices.  You have to live with them.  At the same time, what does screwing over a fellow Service Member say about your morals and ethics?

With all due respect George - I made my choices based on all the information available and then, after I gave my commitment, the government moved the goalposts. I will try everything I can to make this work. I didn't jump through hoops and give up a far better paying job because of greed, but I have to eat.

 

[armyvern]

As a married new recruit currently at Borden undergoing training I don't know if I can actually survive with losing approx. $1000 per month from my paycheck (rations and loss of separation benefits).  I can't sell my house, get my wife relocated to Borden and into a new job in 2 weeks. If I could, the government will have a load of moving expenses to pay, and in a years time we'll have to do the whole thing over again when I get posted.....RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Several times before signing on the dotted line I was asked if I was sure that I could survive, and it was stressed to me how important it was that I shouldn't have financial worries which could be used against me. I had done my homework over the previous 18 months and knew exactly what I would be receiving in wages and benefits, so I confidently answered that everything was good.

I think I just found out what it's like to be a pretty boy in maximum security prison.......if you know what I mean!

Now, I honestly don't know what I'm going to do. It may be that my only option is to VR which will mean the government will have wasted a whole lot of cash putting me through BMQ. I wonder if they'll let me release with 2 weeks notice, just like the notice they've given me?

AND....why do they want to charge me $550ish for rations when my wife and I eat quite comfortably for about $500 per month including toiletries??????

I'm gutted, furious and watching my dreams go down the pan. Any advice would be gratefully received....please don't suggest opting out of the rations, because I've already been told that isn't an option unless I move out of barracks.

  :rage:

PS If anyone wants to question my dedication because I stated that I may have to VR, I just want to remind everyone that when I signed up, I (and everyone else in my situation) agreed to put myself in harms way to protect Canada and it's people, up to and including giving my own life.

As Strike has stated, I too hear that there are some very senior military staff fighting this and attempting to get a distinguishment between those who "choose IR" (wife's employment) and those who are "forced" (you and I) Prohibited Post (not the same as being posted IR). Fighting for options such as "benefits remain for those who are forced (you and I)", and benefits for IR occur (perhaps without meals) but only for a limited time etc (because there are legit cases where a temporary IR is warranted; for example, the woman in the CBC article who is awaiting surgery - she'd have to move to the bottom of the waiting list if she were to follow her spouse to another province now).

If they are addressing this issue and re-assessing though ---- the silence above is deafening. Another bit of bad comms strategy if this is indeed occurring and they aren't sending the word down to those of us directly affected by it. In fact, the only communique that I have seen at my level via official means on any "clarification or re-evaluating" is from DCBA confirming that we are fucked on 01 Sept even if forced into separation.

There are also many of us already working on grieveances and we are working on it together, but will have to file as individuals ... but we are pooling our resources to pull appropriate precedents, policies for other Gov't Depts (who certainly are not seeing their higher-than-the CF's SE benefits, including their weekend travel back home allowance reduced) etc etc.

If you want to serve your country, I can only encourage you hang in, do what you can to sort yourself monetarily (visit SISIP etc as per Strike) now and hold on tight until while the good fight gets fought. Hopefully that fight will see the "forced into this on the CF's orders" side win. If not, you won't be the only one in line contemplating VRing.

As one half of a MSC who has been IR 4 times, I'm not willing to allow the CF to solve it's manning issues at my families expense and charge me for it too just because I have no choice.

I have now been PP (prohibited posted) for 4 years straight - constituting 2 prohibited postings in a row; my service spouse has also been posted twice in that 4 years. None of those 4 locations is the same. I have been to two bases, and he has been to two totally different bases (and even though our DF&E remains with him and moves with him --- even he was packed up and moved from one province to another in January). Four damn years. No choice. And, I did 2 prohibited postings before that.

For the earlier poster who made the comment about the IR guy getting to go home on weekends because it was only a 3 hour trip ... so f'n what!!?? She's saying that now he won't be able to afford the damn gas to get home on a weekend. He was not paid SE for those days he was home. You think me getting to get home on some weekends after 4 years of this forced shit is somehow wrong? I pay for those trips home out of my own damn pocket and do not get paid SE during those times. And, I'm supposed to feel like I'm doing something wrong or immoral because I get to see my hubby and kids? Wow. Vern shakes head.

 

[George Wallace]

With all due respect George - I made my choices based on all the information available and then, after I gave my commitment, the government moved the goalposts. I will try everything I can to make this work. I didn't jump through hoops and give up a far better paying job because of greed, but I have to eat.

With all due respect, not being entitled to the same IR benefits as others for ten years, (Starting in the "Dark Days" of the '90's.) was not pleasant.  Nor was the added three years of paying two mortgages in different locations.  Don't think that I did not inquire about it. 

Long gone are the days of the RSM's living in the Q's with their big trucks, nice car, boat and trailer, ATV and Ski-Doo.  They never planned for retirement and it bit them hard when they did and had to move out of that Q with no place to go.  The days of the young soldier having the fast car or big truck, big screen TVs, ATV and/or Ski-Doo, and perhaps a boat are still here.  Perhaps some should be looking at some of the "luxuries" that they may have and can do without.  Perhaps some people have grown too accustomed to a higher standard of living than perhaps they can afford and are now getting caught in the crunch.

Out of curiousity, how many of you take Advances on a Claim?  I know I never do.  I don't want to be bit by having to pay back monies, rather than recieve money.

 

[4Feathers]

Thank you for the advice,  I'm sure SISSIP and the release section will be very busy at the training bases.

Just a thought for the troops with bad or no credit.  Maybe they can qualify for a student loan?  I wonder if Basic Training qualifies?

Any BPSO's out there?

You are not alone in your plight, and quite correct about the release and SISIP sections getting busy. You are probably kidding about the student loan while on Basic but that is understandable considering the curve ball you have been thrown.  Your concerns have been staffed to senior leadership, as this new policy change is going to hurt the new recruits and lower ranks the most. We are going to lose a lot of good people as a result of this. Best of luck to you.

 

[4Feathers]

And as an employer that demands and orders sacrifices from its members, the CF should show dedication and commitment in return to its most valuable asset... Clearly not happening now.  It is a two-way street, if you want to keep quality personnel in, you need to make some effort in compensating them.  And in this day and age, a pat on the back just won't cut it.  The old "I am dedicated to the CF 100% and would work for free" ain't so anymore.  Money talks and believe it or not, it will keep people happy. 

I agree that the IR system has been abused greatly in the past.  However, penalizing everyone is not the solution. I feel for those on prohibited posting that will essentially have a 900$ gap into their budget as of Sept 1.  It is NOT negligible.

This issue does not affect me, however I find it totally outrageous...

Your post is pretty much the prevalent feeling in the CF right now on what this means. Those more senior will be able to weather this but those on prohibited posting who are new to the CF are getting the worst of it. I am hoping they do something for these folks as we are going to lose a lot of them, and probably the best ones who have other options.

 

[4Feathers]

Interesting.  You do know that RECRUITS go through a CREDIT CHECK as part of the enrollment procedure; right?

GW, yes we do credit checks, but they only tell us if the member is making the minimum monthly payment on their debts, not the extent to which they are already leveraged. Having interviewed many potential recruits, they are living on the "line" already and so long as they are not defaulting on loans or getting things repossessed, they easily pass the credit check. Part of the allure to the CF is an otherwise good benefits package. To have that pulled out from under them mid way through training is not fair IMHO.

 

[PMedMoe]

One thing I'd like to mention is people saying that they will be "losing" the amount of SE from their "paycheque".  To be correct, you are not.  SE is an allowance (or benefit) and not part of your pay.  This is the same as people posted from a position that receives LDA (or Air or Sea allowance) to one that does not, stating they are "taking a pay cut" with their posting (and trust me, I've heard it).

I know, it's just semantics.  Some of these people are going to be hit hard.  Particularly those who relied on SE as part of their budget.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

I just came off 20 months of IR in Ottawa and to quell any ideas, IR was NEVER a money maker. There were 4 major changes in my relatively short time but each one impacted in a different way. One thing to keep in mind is that though rent is still covered, nothing else (SE) is (as of 1 Sep). There are utilities, there is apartment insurance, there is parking (ALWAYS above the $100 max) and these are expenses that would not normally be incurred as extras to most of us (unless you maintain 2 homes for whatever reason). In Ottawa, I budgetted $300/mth for utilities (phone, internet, power etc), $400/mth for groceries and $50 (over and above the allowance) for parking in my building. At 26.55/day SE, that worked out to just under $800/mth. In May, I was in Halifax on course for most of the month so was abated and was paid only a little over $200 in SE though I still had utilities/insurance and a weeks of groceries to cover in Ottawa. My last 4 months in Ottawa 'cost' me about $800 to live.
I see alot of cease training requests and promotion refusals coming our way. If this was not what was intended by the 'author' of this change, then there should be a simple way to reverse it...No?
Moe, I know SE is not part of the 'paycheque' but on IR (or any other separated TD), essentially it is exactly that-It is an offset so that the inconvenience of your working away from home does not cost you out of pocket and this is how it was expalined (for IR anyway) right up until atleast Dec 2010 when I left for Ottawa.
I think what sickens many is that the CF seems to take the hits first wrt benefits and subsequent cuts to them. I am not saying that this is necessarily true but this is how it is relayed through media. It will be interesting to see how this all changes our demographics in the coming months...or...if someone wakes up and smells the coffee.

 

[PMedMoe]

Moe, I know SE is not part of the 'paycheque' but on IR (or any other separated TD), essentially it is exactly that-It is an offset so that the inconvenience of your working away from home does not cost you out of pocket and this is how it was expalined (for IR anyway) right up until atleast Dec 2010 when I left for Ottawa.

I know that.  I think it was more the "I'll be losing $1000 off my paycheque" comment that prompted me to post.  Yes, they will be out of pocket for that, and in some cases more...

I think what sickens many is that the CF seems to take the hits first wrt benefits and subsequent cuts to them. I am not saying that this is necessarily true but this is how it is relayed through media. It will be interesting to see how this all changes our demographics in the coming months...or...if someone wakes up and smells the coffee.

I agree.  I heard CBSA is getting some of these cuts as well.  I'd love to know to what extent, since they used to get more than we did.  And don't even mention politicians....  :