Bemoaning The Lack of Sports in The CF? [merged thread]

[Biggoals2bdone]

I'm def not a SME of Track and Field hence why I haven't tried to run one, but it is a good idea, everything I have suggested up through my CoC has either not been answered or outright shot down.  at least 4-6 months ago I sent a memo up for a Coy or Bn level strength challenge (strongman light basically, involving different military objects like jerry cans and etc) and although it wasn't shot down, i've still not heard anything back and really am not holding my breath.  Also at the moment I am more focused with trying to get my club through PSP Rec up and going, and all the paperwork and what not isn't exactly easy.

Through the club we will host various strength athletics competitions, including a strongman competition, and the competitions and seminars the club will host is where I am banking on getting support out there to eventually get something going base side. I am just getting held up at the moment by all the paperwork, proposed budgets, By-laws, etc...i've started on most of it, but not quite done yet.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

Anyone else have any experience running sporting events? Any problems you faced? Creative thinkin you did etc or anyone else who's started a club through psp rec?

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

Anyone else have other sports they'd like to see either introduced or RE-introduced?

on another note,  I have a meeting with PSP rec about the club, and they will be helping out a little with the paperwork, so definitely moving in the right direction!

 

[GINge!]

Anyone else have other sports they'd like to see either introduced or RE-introduced?

What's the one with the ball and long ribbon on a twirly stick? That one for sure.

Oh, and buy a small fleet of dirt bikes and build a motocross track behind the field house. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Gunner98]

GINge!  I always expected that you were secretly into Rhythmic Gymnastics.

IMHO (and has already been stated by others) the ubiquitous sports and athletic culture started to dissolve when larger numbers of people moved off base and the PSP took over from the PERI staff.

Healthy bases and units still have leagues that attract soldiers. 

Taking a soldier team downtown into a civilian leagues entails a lot of risk - ìnjured on duty, practice availability, forfeits during major exercises.

Using base or unit NP funds to pay league fees does not fly so there is no benefit is representing the CF downtown.

 

[upandatom]

I believe Rugby is active in Petawawa and Kingston, Intersquadron, I may have read some FB posts abotu 2 SVC BN having a team. -disclaimer, I may have been mistaken.

I am starting to see a trend, yes with more people living off bases, less people are prone to participate in Athletics within the CF.

I remember seeing the PERI days on the outside, and now the PSP days inside. I would prefer the PERI days from what I witnessed. From what I understand PERI staff was held to the same physical standard (if not more) then the people they were instructing. Where I am now, we have a PSP that instructs us to do certain things, and they cant do it themselves. This was a first for me, other places, PT Sessions, the PSP staff has always demonstrated, shown us, even participated but kept a watchful eye and still had positive control of the group. Im not saying all PSP are horrible, but we need a revamp of the system.

Im starting to find it a bit ridiculous the people that are complaing about sports in the CF.  How the money is spent etc. its NPF funds, doesnt touch your unit funds, and your unit doesnt pay for you to go.

Using base or unit NP funds to pay league fees does not fly so there is no benefit is representing the CF downtown.

Actually they pay up to 75% for one season, (Summer or Winter) and if money is available, they could pay for both, depends how good your Sports Coordinator is (more money is available for your team if you dont get new uniforms etc)

IF your CO signs off on you being allowed to participate on a team, that includes times, dates of practices and states in a downtown league with varying hours of games, its now a duty from  the Base Commander that you attend. Your coach and or Sports coordinator can initiate disciplinary action for missing games/practices. This also includes possible injuries etc that can be associated. Its a delicate balance and most CoC and Sports Teams are good at working together.


I stand by being in Full agreeance that we need more range days for us non infanteers, we should probably stop spending billions of dollars on corrupt governments but I can guarantee thats another thread in here.
Its pretty simple, Sports increase Morale, Fitness, Teamwork, Leadership, all which are very important in Day to Day Military life.

 

[daftandbarmy]

GINge!  I always expected that you were secretly into Rhythmic Gymnastics.

IMHO (and has already been stated by others) the ubiquitous sports and athletic culture started to dissolve when larger numbers of people moved off base and the PSP took over from the PERI staff.

Healthy bases and units still have leagues that attract soldiers. 

Taking a soldier team downtown into a civilian leagues entails a lot of risk - ìnjured on duty, practice availability, forfeits during major exercises.

Using base or unit NP funds to pay league fees does not fly so there is no benefit is representing the CF downtown.

Maybe the answer lies somewhere in this clip... especially for the PERI community  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmwJAfHBFaE

Now I have to excuse myself to go wash my eyes... 

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

So, judging by some of the reactions in this thread, not many of you participate in Sports.

It benefits in many ways;

1. Physical fitness, to compete at the level in many sports takes peak conditioning.
2. Morale, Obviously
3. Team building,
4. Leadership- and to that comment up above that states flying, and sailing develops leadership, that is head in the sand thinking.
5. Friendly Rivalry between bases etc.

I do agree that yes, some sports need to be reeled in. There is no way that a Base Hockey team should be getting free sticks every year. Im sorry, you play that sport, you buy your equipment. That includes sticks. That is a waste of the money right there. Basketball teams don't get shoes, Runners don't get shoes, soccer teams don't get shin pads or cleats.

But the budget is different. PSP earns money from civilian memberships in joining gyms etc. The CAF buys us the best equipment they can for fitness, the PSP are smart and allow civilians to buy memberships. That budget, is something the CAF has said, this will go to fitness. So in essence, the gyms and fitness centres feed money back into the system. Its not only budget money that is used as well. A lot of sponsors are used to, local banks, credit unions etc offer money to run the events, pay for team travel to tournaments.

If you choose not to make a goal, put personal time and effort in, and join one of the many teams, don't harp on the people that do.

Each/most sport has a patron(like Regimental/Honorary Col ) as well, a Senior Staff Officer that is involved with the sport, of free will, they volunteer, that sometimes offer their own money to teams for travel etc.
And CISM has tightened its belts, ALOT. As of now we only have Triathlon, Taekwondo and Soccer I think. The triathlon and taekwondo will never be cut as we are a world contender in those sports.

I don't know if you are well versed in equipment or strength and conditioning, but NO, the vast majority of the equipment is low to middle grade AT BEST.  The purchases for equipment seem to be made by a blind 10yr old with ADHD. Local establishments with 1/4 of the funding that our facilities have are far and away better equipped.  I've been to at least 6 CAF gyms, and I can say not one impressed me, and they seemed to all be equipped by someone who just liked pictures in a catalogue instead of someone who knows a thing or 2 about equipment. 

I'd actually like to see a standardization for equipment across the board for all CAF gyms, maybe not the amount of equipment but the type/style and quality + make/model.  Why buy crappy quality stuff that you are just going to have to replace sooner, or will limit what you can do, rather than buy good quality stuff that will last a long time.  Maybe you'll have to space out the purchases but it would be a better plan.  Not to mention listen to the people (gym members/soldiers/sailors/airmen) who are knowledgeable about equipment and take cues from them...by that I mean actual knowledge not just some dude saying oh ya i like this piece of equipment used it before and its sweet.

Speaking for Petawawa alone, the Army fitness centre had/has to be redone (i.e still needs WAY more done), all the barbells are getting thrown out because they are junk, bent, broken, rusted, etc...i'm talking 15-30 bars...thats probably 200-300 a pop, all because they didn't bother buying quality barbells. That's just ONE of MANY issues, when you get many issued they add up financially.

 

[upandatom]

I don't know if you are well versed in equipment or strength and conditioning, but NO, the vast majority of the equipment is low to middle grade AT BEST.  The purchases for equipment seem to be made by a blind 10yr old with ADHD. Local establishments with 1/4 of the funding that our facilities have are far and away better equipped.  I've been to at least 6 CAF gyms, and I can say not one impressed me, and they seemed to all be equipped by someone who just liked pictures in a catalogue instead of someone who knows a thing or 2 about equipment. 

I'd actually like to see a standardization for equipment across the board for all CAF gyms, maybe not the amount of equipment but the type/style and quality + make/model.  Why buy crappy quality stuff that you are just going to have to replace sooner, or will limit what you can do, rather than buy good quality stuff that will last a long time.  Maybe you'll have to space out the purchases but it would be a better plan.  Not to mention listen to the people (gym members/soldiers/sailors/airmen) who are knowledgeable about equipment and take cues from them...by that I mean actual knowledge not just some dude saying oh ya i like this piece of equipment used it before and its sweet.

Speaking for Petawawa alone, the Army fitness centre had/has to be redone (i.e still needs WAY more done), all the barbells are getting thrown out because they are junk, bent, broken, rusted, etc...i'm talking 15-30 bars...thats probably 200-300 a pop, all because they didn't bother buying quality barbells. That's just ONE of MANY issues, when you get many issued they add up financially.

"The best equipment THEY CAN" not best equipment money can buy(purchasers are trying to do way to much with way to little). If Dumbbells are being tossed and thrown around, then you should say something to the Jersey Shore wannabes throwing them, I understand dumbbells being dropped under "assistance" persay, but dropping them from two to three feet is idiotic.
Be very happy you have a gym like Pets, could be worse off and have a Cardio AND Weight room half the size of the Petawawa Fitness centre entrance way like I do here.

I do have to fully agree with the statement of Standardization of the fitness centres across the board. I have been to 6 as well, Pet Borden Kingston Wainwright St Jean(and montreal)  and Ottawa. Some are all over the board. Money being spent in one place where another needs it. Montreals is attrocious, Leitreims is even worse. Even at my current posting, I obtained a membership at a private facility because the fitness centre did not meet my needs.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

I still disagree about it being the best equipment they can buy.

Considering the budget that PSP Pet/DDH has, they wouldn't even need 10% to make that place a GREAT facility (i've drawn up plans and presented them to people who make the decisions, they were all very excited and on board...but nothing ever happened)

Like I said its short sightedness, they see a cheaper priced option and think ooooh we're saving money, when instead they are buying something that is going to need to be fixed more often, that is going to need to be thrown out sooner, etc.

The space is used poorly, and ive been told it was on purpose because when they get new stuff in, they don't want to reorganize things, so they just put it wherever there is an empty spot.

Not only are you asking for trouble in terms of repairs and what not by buying low quality equipment, you're asking for trouble in terms of people getting injured.

The standardization thing I look at being good for several reasons; it means you can take a group and no matter what base you are sent to for courses, or taskings or whatever you can still maintain their workouts, and not have to go train elsewhere, would also mean no one would feel jipped (i.e people in X base bitch and moan about Y base's better gym), would be easier for PSPs who change bases/take new contracts.

Going back to quality, etc, even if you get lower quality things doesn't mean you can improve them somehow, for example, Valcartier has half racks in their cbt fitness corner, half racks suck for general use (less versatile) and most people who use half racks are primarily olympic weightlifters, they are easier to tip over being they have less mass, and fewer uprights...BUT they are cheaper, so Valcartier gets 12 of them, AND to make them safer BOLTS THEM to the floor, the money they save they spent on good quality bars and good quality bumper plates.

Other point I must mention is that sometimes even a crappy item is overpriced...and that price is in line with the price point of a quality item.  the racks at Pet which are falling apart, and not great retail for about 2300-2800$ for the SAME price you could get something HIGH quality, more versatile and SAFER, i've done the research.

and sometimes its just sillyness...as in buying 3 bench presses or more smith machines...when you only have 1 full power cage, numerous broken items, not enough weight plates, buying more of the same crappy bars that bend with only 400-500lbs on them, when they keep getting bent over and over, etc.

 

[Good2Golf]

Or you could replace the sit-up with the crunch, and use the 5BX plan with no equipment at all and maintain quite acceptable levels of fitness....

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

Or you could replace the sit-up with the crunch, and use the 5BX plan with no equipment at all and maintain quite acceptable levels of fitness....

Although that could certainly fly for unit or military PT, there's no way they could shut down base gyms or do this plan, if we do what you suggest why don't we also just get rid of all ice rinks, and volleyball nets, soccer nets, etc...

We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.

 

[dapaterson]

not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in to maintain their fitness as members of the profession of arms.

I'm sure that's what you meant to say.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.

:facepalm:

We're not a professional fuckin' sports organization.  Maybe you missed the news lately...check the link below.  Sort of seems there are more pressing issues than "Base Borden doesn't have the latest *insert sport gear name here*!!!  :

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gen-tom-lawson-warns-military-cuts-will-hurt-readiness-1.2687806

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Although that could certainly fly for unit or military PT, there's no way they could shut down base gyms or do this plan, if we do what you suggest why don't we also just get rid of all ice rinks, and volleyball nets, soccer nets, etc...

We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.

Back off the rhetoric. You're being close minded, intolerant and egotistical.

---Staff---

 

[OldSolduer]

g

We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.

Maybe you should calm the f$$k down. I tell my troops to keep fit enough to pass the FORCE test. That is all that is required. Do we encourage them yo do better? Of course.
As has been said, we are not a sports team. Sports teams don't hunt down and kill other human beings.

 

[trustnoone73]

We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot here.  Much of what you said with respects to use of space and quality of equipment makes sense at least to me and they are points I have heard at other bases as well.  Some base or unit gyms are better than others and it falls under the responsibilities of the PSP Facilities Coordinators.  If you have valid points that are being ignored while resources continue to be eroded maybe just bring it up next time a CO/Bde Comd/Div Comd is standing in front of your unit and asks if there are any questions.

I know a lot of people who are competitive athletes that are in no way supported by the CF and receive minimal if any support at the unit level.  Myself included.  When my work allows me to work my training into unit PT hours its a bonus.  When it doesn't I've found myself training at 0430 or 2200hrs.  That's life.  I'm sure my non-CF competition is doing the same with even less support from their employers. 

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

:facepalm:

We're not a professional ******' sports organization.  Maybe you missed the news lately...check the link below.  Sort of seems there are more pressing issues than "Base Borden doesn't have the latest *insert sport gear name here*!!!  :

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gen-tom-lawson-warns-military-cuts-will-hurt-readiness-1.2687806

Never said we were, as such I don't think we should be treated like them either.  At the same time considering a major part of the military's job is to be fit, AND since majority of the year is crappy weather and people are forced to train indoors, not to mention the fact that there are countless folks who are injured and on rehab...we do require adequate facilities.  I'm not talking about getting the newest Nike or Under Armour hockey pads, or fancy schmancy sticks, balls, etc... I'm talking about basic strength and conditioning tools, that any decent fitness facility should have.  Another thing to remember is the money that PSP uses for clubs, equipment, maintenance, etc...primarily money that doesn't come from the fed government, at least this is what I was told by PSP, so the cuts wouldn't exactly affect what I am discussing.

Back off the rhetoric. You're being close minded, intolerant and egotistical.

---Staff---

With all due respect, I felt the close mindedness was coming at me from others, who weren't contributing anything of worth to the thread.  I'm not getting into a match with anyone, just speaking my mind.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot here.  Much of what you said with respects to use of space and quality of equipment makes sense at least to me and they are points I have heard at other bases as well.  Some base or unit gyms are better than others and it falls under the responsibilities of the PSP Facilities Coordinators.  If you have valid points that are being ignored while resources continue to be eroded maybe just bring it up next time a CO/Bde Comd/Div Comd is standing in front of your unit and asks if there are any questions.

I know a lot of people who are competitive athletes that are in no way supported by the CF and receive minimal if any support at the unit level.  Myself included.  When my work allows me to work my training into unit PT hours its a bonus.  When it doesn't I've found myself training at 0430 or 2200hrs.  That's life.  I'm sure my non-CF competition is doing the same with even less support from their employers.

i've stopped trying to convince people that non-CF athletics should be covered, so no I don't think that, do I think it sucks...yes, BUT I do understand priorities of budgeting, as well as priorities in terms of training.  i've never had time to train on during work hours for my own interests, and I don't care/hasn't bothered me. My way of thinking is to those who can get it, good on you, to those who can't thems the breaks.

My main reason for my point of the facilities needing to be upgraded severely, is that A LOT of bases (by proxy their gyms) are in isolated areas, and therefore they are the only or one of the few options without having to drive far, on top of the fact that they (the psp) have the budget to do it, I don't see what is stopping them, ESPECIALLY when I personally know many people who have requested certain items be brought in or upgraded and they pleaded their case well, PSP boss liked what was brought to him but never did anything about it.

Trust me if I was posted to Kingston, Ottawa, or a real city...i'd have no problem finding good quality facilities, and it most likely wouldn't bother/affect me, but I am not and it is, and I can tell you i'm certainly not the only one who it affects.

Back to the standardization comment, does anyone have any info regarding what PSP are obligated/mandated to provide at minimum in their facilities? If there even is such a document? Curious because I was told base CE had a say in what went where, and how many lbs could be in X many square feet at PSP facilities, wondering how much truth there is to this, or if this was just a line I was fed.

I understand not everyone shares my thoughts, and I am likely to alienate people with my views, but I don't apologize for them in regards to this, but I'm not trying to get in anyones face.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Interestingly one of the things the British Armed Forces has done as a result of their draw down from Afghanistan and impending defence reductions has been to increase funding for sports and physical fitness.  Why you may ask?

Because young men who are soldiers need something to occupy their time when they aren't training for/fighting a war.

I tend to agree with OP that we suffer from a lack of sporting culture within the CF, I won't call it this though as we aren't paid to play sports, we are paid to be physically/mentally fit so when we are called upon we are ready to deploy. 

I don't think investing in high speed sports equipment and facilities is the solution.  We have ample money invested in sports it just isn't distributed properly.  I would like to see us get rid of CISM, if people want to go play professional volleyball/basketball/taekwondo/etc... they can doit on their own time.  Take the money from CISM and re-invest it in developing fitness culture at the Bde/Wing/Fleet level.  I'd also like to see us invest more money into events with a military focus.

Events/activities Like:

1.  Canadian Forces Patrol Concentration
2.  Army Run
3.  Ironman/Mountain Man/Bush Man
4.  Biathlon
5.  Bde Shooting Competitions
6.  Orienteering
7.  Increased adventure training
8.  Increased funding for sports clubs on bases

The possibilities are endless, what is needed though is an actual strategy to improve fitness with actual objectives and measurable goals.  For an organization that prides itself on "planning" it's amazing nobody can provide any sort of actual direction on health and fitness? 

Here is a radical idea.....

Presently, PSP falls under CFMWS, who answers to CMP.  My personal opinion, CFMWS has way too big of a mandate to effectively manage everything they do and parts of it should be given to others to manage, PSP being one of those organizations that doesn't belong. 

I believe PSP should answer directly to the Surgeon General or one of his appointed subordinates, why you may ask?  Take a look at your local public health unit and who is in charge of it and what it's mandate is.  It's overseen by a Doctor and it looks after a number of different portfolios which I will list:

In no apparent order:

Alcohol
Blind & Low-Vision
Child Health
Cold Chain
Dental and Oral Health
Diseases and Conditions
Eating Well
Extreme Weather
Falls Prevention
Health Hazards
Hearing
Immunization
Infection Control
Influenza
Physical Activity
Pregnancy and Postpartum
Resources for Health Care Providers
Sexual Health
Speech and Language
Sun Safety
Tobacco
Travel Health

Key ones highlighted in yellow

Taken from Kingston, Frontenac, Lexington & Addington (KFLA) Public Health website:
http://www.kflapublichealth.ca/Content.aspx?Id=1

Essentially they look after health promotion (educating people on how to live healthy lifestyles) and also implement programs to achieve this education.  Sounds a lot like PSP doesn't it?  Fact is, while physical fitness does improve morale and welfare in some cases, it is ultimately a medical issue and as such should be looked after by the medical branch.  We have a fitness problem in the military, rather than pretending it doesn't exist lets empower the medical field to deal with it and provide the Chain of Command with a comprehensive strategy to address this issue.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

Interestingly one of the things the British Armed Forces has done as a result of their draw down from Afghanistan and impending defence reductions has been to increase funding for sports and physical fitness.  Why you may ask?

Because young men who are soldiers need something to occupy their time when they aren't training for/fighting a war.

I tend to agree with OP that we suffer from a lack of sporting culture within the CF, I won't call it this though as we aren't paid to play sports, we are paid to be physically/mentally fit so when we are called upon we are ready to deploy. 

I don't think investing in high speed sports equipment and facilities is the solution.  We have ample money invested in sports it just isn't distributed properly.  I would like to see us get rid of CISM, if people want to go play professional volleyball/basketball/taekwondo/etc... they can doit on their own time.  Take the money from CISM and re-invest it in developing fitness culture at the Bde/Wing/Fleet level.  I'd also like to see us invest more money into events with a military focus.

Events/activities Like:

1.  Canadian Forces Patrol Concentration
2.  Army Run
3.  Ironman/Mountain Man/Bush Man
4.  Biathlon
5.  Bde Shooting Competitions
6.  Orienteering
7.  Increased adventure training
8.  Increased funding for sports clubs on bases

The possibilities are endless, what is needed though is an actual strategy to improve fitness with actual objectives and measurable goals.  For an organization that prides itself on "planning" it's amazing nobody can provide any sort of actual direction on health and fitness? 

Definitely not a bad idea, but at te same time, we want pers to have fun while improving fitness and and all the other goodies that sports entail, we don't want to only offer bag drives for sports. Which to be fair some would consider the events you listed as such others would love them.

The major point of contention I have with what you said was high speed equipment and facilities...what do you define as high speed? Because I'm merely talking about power racks that I don't have to worry about holding up to use, barbells that won't bend with what should be insignificant loads on them. More weight plates (iron and bumper plates) those kinds of things, it's not like I am saying we should have a mono-lift or an indoor rowing tank.

There's nothing high speed about my recommendations.