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Will be locked if it gets out of hand again. Thank you Kyle for posting what paracowbow PMed you.
Basic Para 2005
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I have been reading this discussion for some time and I thought I might contribute a few comments. "Airborne" or the French "Aeroporte" means, very simply, carried by the air. It used to be in Canada that there was just one set of wings for everyone who jumped and all who earned those wings were paratroopers; nowadays there are many different wings to differentiate between different airborne roles. All of those roles start out with basic airborne training to qualify as a basic parachutist. Just because one takes parachute or "airborne" training does not make them a paratrooper.
Canada has had a number of formations over the years consisting of personnel who were airborne, or jump or parachute qualified and in addition were trained as paratroopers. What's the difference? Well it is really quite simple, all paratroopers are airborne or parachute qualified, but not everyone who is airborne qualified is a paratrooper. The difference is that paratroopers earn the right to wear the maroon beret and the silver (white) leaf on their wings through training in what to do once they reach the ground as a participant in airborne or parachute operations.
A basic parachutist, commonly referred to as airborne qualified, is not a paratrooper until they have trained to know what to do in airborne unit operations on the ground. Training and experience makes one a paratrooper, not just a jump course. Taking the Basic Parachutist course and qualifying makes one a military parachutist and that is substantially different from a civilian jumper. Wearing the badge or wings of a basic parachutist means that the person has been "airborne" and is thus a member of the airborne brotherhood. Being a member of the airborne brotherhood doesn't mean you are a paratrooper. It means that you have conquered a fear within and trusted yourself, your comrades, and equipment enough to jump out of a military aircraft. It means you have been 'airborne".
When someone says that so-and-so went "airborne" it is usually taken to mean that they have taken the Basic Parachutist Course. Context is quite important as someone might also have said that, for example: "So-and-so joined the Pats, took para and went "Airborne". Airborne in that context would mean that the person indicated joined a jump unit such as the now-disbanded Canadian Airborne Regiment, or one of the jump companies.
I am particularly sensitive to the whole issue as I once had the misfortune to run into a poser who claimed that he had been "Airborne" in the context of paratrooper, and wore the white leaf on his uniform. As my leaf is like my nom de plume, red, I gave him the benefit of the doubt until some of his jump stories did not ring true. When another jumper and I confronted the chap and asked for his course number he was done as he didn't know what it should be and tried to make up a number that was plainly untrue. He in fact hadn't qualified as a basic parachutist, let alone as a paratrooper. He was not airborne, didn't take the course and couldn't wear the t-shirt.
In short the word "airborne" has one basic meaning but two contexts that cause confusion. Being really clear helps a lot and what might be clear in a conversation doesn't come across so well in on-line format. The problem arises when someone claiming to have been "airborne" misrepresents himself as a paratrooper when they are merely a military parachutist, both of whom are in the most basic sense "airborne".
In the cadet world there is a real admiration and interest in all things military and the peak of achievement for an army cadet is to gain a spot on the CF Basic Parachutist Course. The selection process is rigorous and the candidates carefully screened. There is tremendous enthusiasm for all things "airborne" and sometimes youthful enthusiasm clouds better judgement. Those successful are rightfully proud of their achievement but sometimes enthusiasm gets people talking when they should be listening.
As well, many soldiers with lots of time in have little patience for the youthful enthusiasm which has not been dimmed by the sights that soldiers see, and thus there is little patience for those that are strutting their stuff and stretching the context. Perhaps there could be a bit of understanding from both points of view. Cadets should recognize that there are veterans reading these comments that find some of the puffing up offensive, and some of those soldiers with vast experience might try to remember what it was like to be young and full of idealism and enthusiasm.
I hope that these comments have been helpful.
Canada has had a number of formations over the years consisting of personnel who were airborne, or jump or parachute qualified and in addition were trained as paratroopers. What's the difference? Well it is really quite simple, all paratroopers are airborne or parachute qualified, but not everyone who is airborne qualified is a paratrooper. The difference is that paratroopers earn the right to wear the maroon beret and the silver (white) leaf on their wings through training in what to do once they reach the ground as a participant in airborne or parachute operations.
A basic parachutist, commonly referred to as airborne qualified, is not a paratrooper until they have trained to know what to do in airborne unit operations on the ground. Training and experience makes one a paratrooper, not just a jump course. Taking the Basic Parachutist course and qualifying makes one a military parachutist and that is substantially different from a civilian jumper. Wearing the badge or wings of a basic parachutist means that the person has been "airborne" and is thus a member of the airborne brotherhood. Being a member of the airborne brotherhood doesn't mean you are a paratrooper. It means that you have conquered a fear within and trusted yourself, your comrades, and equipment enough to jump out of a military aircraft. It means you have been 'airborne".
When someone says that so-and-so went "airborne" it is usually taken to mean that they have taken the Basic Parachutist Course. Context is quite important as someone might also have said that, for example: "So-and-so joined the Pats, took para and went "Airborne". Airborne in that context would mean that the person indicated joined a jump unit such as the now-disbanded Canadian Airborne Regiment, or one of the jump companies.
I am particularly sensitive to the whole issue as I once had the misfortune to run into a poser who claimed that he had been "Airborne" in the context of paratrooper, and wore the white leaf on his uniform. As my leaf is like my nom de plume, red, I gave him the benefit of the doubt until some of his jump stories did not ring true. When another jumper and I confronted the chap and asked for his course number he was done as he didn't know what it should be and tried to make up a number that was plainly untrue. He in fact hadn't qualified as a basic parachutist, let alone as a paratrooper. He was not airborne, didn't take the course and couldn't wear the t-shirt.
In short the word "airborne" has one basic meaning but two contexts that cause confusion. Being really clear helps a lot and what might be clear in a conversation doesn't come across so well in on-line format. The problem arises when someone claiming to have been "airborne" misrepresents himself as a paratrooper when they are merely a military parachutist, both of whom are in the most basic sense "airborne".
In the cadet world there is a real admiration and interest in all things military and the peak of achievement for an army cadet is to gain a spot on the CF Basic Parachutist Course. The selection process is rigorous and the candidates carefully screened. There is tremendous enthusiasm for all things "airborne" and sometimes youthful enthusiasm clouds better judgement. Those successful are rightfully proud of their achievement but sometimes enthusiasm gets people talking when they should be listening.
As well, many soldiers with lots of time in have little patience for the youthful enthusiasm which has not been dimmed by the sights that soldiers see, and thus there is little patience for those that are strutting their stuff and stretching the context. Perhaps there could be a bit of understanding from both points of view. Cadets should recognize that there are veterans reading these comments that find some of the puffing up offensive, and some of those soldiers with vast experience might try to remember what it was like to be young and full of idealism and enthusiasm.
I hope that these comments have been helpful.
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absolutely. It doesn't get any more plain than that.redleafjumper said:
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To further illuminate or diminish, the mystique of AIRBORNE.
Glider delivered pers where deemed to be Airborne - Ex Coelis - in WWII - they had maroon berets but where not paratroops.
The US has Airborne shoulder titles to any tom dick or harry that hangs around an airborne unit, even if they are not jump qualified - further disgusting some (inc. me) they also allow them to wear maroon berets even though they are not jump qualified or in a jump billet.
*look at the wonderful trial pics of PFC England (shudder)
Anyone who went thru CABC (back in the day
) got the right to purchase and wear an Airborne shirt/sweater/license plate etc.
CAR, Airborne Gunner, Airborne Engineer etc paraphernalia was restricted to those in the units. And it was those units that housed Paratroopers.
I've noticed since CABC made way to CPC there has been a great deal of attachment given to the term Airborne to refer to things it really should not.
Just my $0.02
Glider delivered pers where deemed to be Airborne - Ex Coelis - in WWII - they had maroon berets but where not paratroops.
The US has Airborne shoulder titles to any tom dick or harry that hangs around an airborne unit, even if they are not jump qualified - further disgusting some (inc. me) they also allow them to wear maroon berets even though they are not jump qualified or in a jump billet.
*look at the wonderful trial pics of PFC England (shudder)
Anyone who went thru CABC (back in the day
) got the right to purchase and wear an Airborne shirt/sweater/license plate etc.CAR, Airborne Gunner, Airborne Engineer etc paraphernalia was restricted to those in the units. And it was those units that housed Paratroopers.
I've noticed since CABC made way to CPC there has been a great deal of attachment given to the term Airborne to refer to things it really should not.
Just my $0.02
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now there were some brave men. To sit in a craft made of plywood, crammed together, and deliberately ride it until it crashed into the ground in order to get into a firefight.
Just finished reading all five pages...Although entertaining, I am starting to worry about myself.
Some advice to the young cadets....I was once you 20 years ago! So proud of my jump wings I thought my chest would burst. Lived with my newly issued, genuine CF issued dog tags 24/7. Marked my 7 airborne T-Shirts with the days of the week so they would wear evenly.
Then I joined the Reg Force.
Looking back, I likely should have kept the wings off my uniform until I reached my first posting. I realilze now that I likely rubbed many the wrong way with the same attitude that seems to be displayed by many of you on this board. Only in hindsight do I see that now. Although I passed everything on the first try, I know I would have been further ahead, and would have gained far more respect, if I had just shut up, worked hard, and let my performance speak for itself. I am sure my coursemates likely tired of hearing my war stories, however, I didn't see it at the time...
Advice? Be proud of yourselves. Although not acknowledged here, the chances of a Cadet even making it on the course are much harder than in the Reg force. But...if you go on to join the Reserves or Reg Force (which most of you will), rely on your perfomance, not your Cadet accomplishments, to get to the front of the pack.
(Modifed to remove stupid question)
Some advice to the young cadets....I was once you 20 years ago! So proud of my jump wings I thought my chest would burst. Lived with my newly issued, genuine CF issued dog tags 24/7. Marked my 7 airborne T-Shirts with the days of the week so they would wear evenly.
Then I joined the Reg Force.
Looking back, I likely should have kept the wings off my uniform until I reached my first posting. I realilze now that I likely rubbed many the wrong way with the same attitude that seems to be displayed by many of you on this board. Only in hindsight do I see that now. Although I passed everything on the first try, I know I would have been further ahead, and would have gained far more respect, if I had just shut up, worked hard, and let my performance speak for itself. I am sure my coursemates likely tired of hearing my war stories, however, I didn't see it at the time...
Advice? Be proud of yourselves. Although not acknowledged here, the chances of a Cadet even making it on the course are much harder than in the Reg force. But...if you go on to join the Reserves or Reg Force (which most of you will), rely on your perfomance, not your Cadet accomplishments, to get to the front of the pack.
(Modifed to remove stupid question)
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kcdist, I found your post absolutely, positively, undoubtedly true. I kinda found that out the hard way too when I arrived at where I am now. But that's ok, I'll know what not to say for next year.
But yes, they still do have cadets jump out of CC130s. I believe the course that just happened jumped out of Hercs.
But yes, they still do have cadets jump out of CC130s. I believe the course that just happened jumped out of Hercs.
paracowboy said:
That was very funny. I might just clarify a comment earlier, but I'm not re-reading to see who made it.
The Basic Parachuting Course was/is a course I and almost every other troop in the two reserve units I served with aimed to get on, realizing combat diver and pathfinder was ...unrealistic. Anyone saying we didn't try hard enough would belittle the effort we made over eight years (some still trying) to get onto limited positions. I believe there was a drought of courses in the late 90's, and after that, it was connections connections connections as to getting a slot. I hope I wouldn't presume too much by saying most of us would go on the course for free. That's how big a deal it is. Even now, I am still trying to figure out how to get someone to pay me to jump out of planes and blow stuff up ;D (said with a smile). My biggest shock while on contract was during a DEU inspection, when the recce driver (sapper) came out with his wings on, which he got as a cadet. Because he let everyone judge him on his everyday actions (pretty awesome troop) and not his war stories about his cadet experiences, it just added to the respect he got from the rentals.
I'd definitely take into consideration redleafjumper's post.
Chimo
What is especially interesting in the RegF is that you often end up, years later, serving in the same unit as your basic instructors (in my case the same company).... And you know what they say about first impressions!
Funny story...Following 2nd language training, we had a three month wait in Gagetown until the commencement of Phase 2 training. As a time filler, the entire group of Ocdt/2Lt I finished Basic Training with were given the opportunity to take the Basic Para course. Me? Because everyone knew I was a proud graduate (see above), I didn't get to go. I was seconded to some section with a whole bunch of career Royal New Brunswick Regiment Class B reservists and ended up clearing a x-country ski trail for three weeks.
The rest of my group had the time of their lives (up to that point), bonded, and had war stories that I couldn't match (something about Denny Andrews Great American Bar). If I'd only kept my mouth shut.....
Funny story...Following 2nd language training, we had a three month wait in Gagetown until the commencement of Phase 2 training. As a time filler, the entire group of Ocdt/2Lt I finished Basic Training with were given the opportunity to take the Basic Para course. Me? Because everyone knew I was a proud graduate (see above), I didn't get to go. I was seconded to some section with a whole bunch of career Royal New Brunswick Regiment Class B reservists and ended up clearing a x-country ski trail for three weeks.
The rest of my group had the time of their lives (up to that point), bonded, and had war stories that I couldn't match (something about Denny Andrews Great American Bar). If I'd only kept my mouth shut.....
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I'm really happy that this debate is (hopefully) over. To sum up...those who have their wings...including myself, hsould be proud to wear them ....but at the same time thkn about what we say and do for our actions may offend others. On the other hand, those who read thses comments shouls sit back and put him or herself in the shoes of those cadets who have their wings and realize the context and tone that they are trying to send. No cadet who has done the para course would ever consider him or herself Airborne(as in a paratrooper)..but we do consider ourselves to have been airborne(lower case "a")..as in we conquered the skies.
airborne
airborne
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How bout that mods? Is that an acceptable compromise? I think its an OK idea.
:-[ aww, buggers
So does that mean there is a chance for myself to try for the Para course again? Would it be in the five years while I'm at RMC or in between? I would definately love some info on that if possible. Thanks.
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Well, any one or several of you hard core TFK Airborne supernintendoninjasniper cadets are more than welcome to stand in front of this broken down old LEG and share your snidely little superiority complex with me. I await your pleasure.
D
D-n-A
Guest
ThatsLife said:
They earned the wings, who cares if they get the wings tattooed, some reservists and reg force do the same when they earn the wings.
Only downside would be drawing attention to themselves on BMQ, etc if an instructer sees it.
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MikeL said:
I know, I understand why res/regs would get their wings tattooed on them, it's understandable. But cadets getting a tattoo of their wings?...I don't know. Personally it's like going sky diving for your birthday and getting a tattoo of a parachute on your arm. To me, personally, I find the actual military and cadets completely different
so running around calling yourself Airborne and showing off your airborne cadet tattoo is a completely different ball game. I was in Air Cadets when I was younger, so don't get me wrong, I have nothing against cadets.
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I remember when I first came to my unit, a certain soldier (who has since been promoted a few times) took it upon himself to get a parachute tattooed into the web of his right hand.
The problem was that he did it whilst still a cadet, before joining.
Now I am sure that he passed the same course as I did, but seeing him reduced to tears by a few of the jump company Cpls before he had even cleared into his company was a real eye opener. The ongoing harassment of "the commando" continued for several more YEARS, with many of the former Airborne NCOs taking a special interest in making him suffer. (as they had the same ink!)
This was'nt the good, kind hearted funny jackings either - it was continual TDs to Wainwright and Gagetown and lots of time in the duty center when he was home.
But it is really your choice - so go ahead - get your tattoo.
The problem was that he did it whilst still a cadet, before joining.
Now I am sure that he passed the same course as I did, but seeing him reduced to tears by a few of the jump company Cpls before he had even cleared into his company was a real eye opener. The ongoing harassment of "the commando" continued for several more YEARS, with many of the former Airborne NCOs taking a special interest in making him suffer. (as they had the same ink!)
This was'nt the good, kind hearted funny jackings either - it was continual TDs to Wainwright and Gagetown and lots of time in the duty center when he was home.
But it is really your choice - so go ahead - get your tattoo.
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on ink: I waited until I had 2 years in a Hard Para position, with an operational deployment while wearing the Maroon Beret, before getting my Pegasus. How would I have felt if I were to have gotten a permanent mark symbolizing my "paratrooper-hood" and washed out within months? The harassment for being boastful and ignoring the rules of the Quiet Professional would have been unmerciful, and I would have been unable to look myself in the mirror.
I could have gotten my Cherry wings done, but then, what if I were to have earned my White wings (as I did)?
Ink is a personal call, but it should be gotten for the right reasons. For you. Not for you to brag without words.
Quiet Professionalism.
I could have gotten my Cherry wings done, but then, what if I were to have earned my White wings (as I did)?
Ink is a personal call, but it should be gotten for the right reasons. For you. Not for you to brag without words.
Quiet Professionalism.
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paracowboy said:
I was standing in line at a video store a few months ago with my girlfriend; looking around, I see a man standing behind wearing a T-shirt, but his left sleeve was rolled up to his shoulder--exposing his tattoo. I wanted to get a closer look at it, so I subtly went to go get a bag of M&M's and took a look at his tattoo. To my surprise it was the USMC Logo. On the top of the logo there was "USMC" and on the bottom "Sniper"..so obviously he was a USMC Sniper. Point being, his intentions were to get attention. I mean, who wears a t-shirt with one of the sleeves rolled up to the shoulder? :
D
D-n-A
Guest
Just because he as a USMC/Scout Sniper tattoo doesn't mean he actually was in the military. Theres a few posers who BS about being military an get military tats, etc.
Example, a Pole who got a US airborne tattoo cause he thought it was cool, an he's gone skydiving, so he thought he earned it.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1166/dsc032293ly.jpg
Example, a Pole who got a US airborne tattoo cause he thought it was cool, an he's gone skydiving, so he thought he earned it.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1166/dsc032293ly.jpg
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