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Attn: Veterans/survivors of veterans

the 48th regulator said:
Exactly

STOP MAKING IT HARD FOR US NEW VETERANS BY BOGGIN' UP THE SYTEM.

YOUR MOTHER COLLECTS A SUBSTANIONAL PENSION FROM VAC, USE THAT TO SUPPORT HER!!!


there I have said it.

And a darn fine example of snipping the beejeesus out of context it was.

Hey, that's great how you want to shove our Korea vets to the back of the bus.  Lovely.  Just lovely.

It'll please you to no end that there'll be very few of them left within 10 years, so you can have the system all to yourself.
 
The system was there for them, your mother experienced that as a survivor.

If you saw that there was wrong in the service, your mother had 5 years to appeal.

Nice job tough guy, I see you trying to wedge yourself into OUR benefits, those that have suffered in the line of duty.  Maybe if you experineced that you would understand, considering you have had 21 years to do that.

dileas

tess

 
Therein lies the rub, your not fighting for a Korea vet your fighting for the daughter of one, now I am not going to say she isn't entitled to something, but she is already getting something. Where as there are Korea vets genuinely trying to get a tribunal to re asses their pension and the system as Tess pointed out is bogged down with trivial case's that don't need to be top priority. And yes I am saying your case is not top priority. Those WWII/ Korea Vet's should be, Guys like Tess should be and now that we have 250+ wounded they should be.

IMO of course
 
284_226 said:
Hey, that's great how you want to shove our Korea vets to the back of the bus.  Lovely.  Just lovely.

It'll please you to no end that there'll be very few of them left within 10 years, so you can have the system all to yourself.

Nice,

So your mission is to protect the Korean Veteran now....Please crusader, stop before you hit a speed bump.  My mission is to stop the likes of you, on behalf of those from the Korean war, First World war, Second World war, every Godamn peacekeeping mission, and Afghanistan, from the likes of an Opportunist like you.

That is what I am fighting for.

dileas

tess




 
the 48th regulator said:
If you saw that there was wrong in the service, your mother had 5 years to appeal.

See?  You're not reading what's being put in front of you.  I told you that my mother was granted the pension 5 years ago.  What she can't appeal is the ruling of ineligibility for PSHCP benefits that came about from a piece of legislation that only came into force 8 months ago.

Nice job tough guy, I see you trying to wedge yourself into OUR benefits, those that have suffered in the line of duty.  Maybe if you experineced that you would understand, considering you have had 21 years to do that.

What on gawd's green earth are you going on about?
 
HitorMiss said:
Therein lies the rub, your not fighting for a Korea vet your fighting for the daughter of one, now I am not going to say she isn't entitled to something, but she is already getting something. Where as there are Korea vets genuinely trying to get a tribunal to re asses their pension and the system as Tess pointed out is bogged down with trivial case's that don't need to be top priority. And yes I am saying your case is not top priority. Those WWII/ Korea Vet's should be, Guys like Tess should be and now that we have 250+ wounded they should be.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.  When it's determined that military service put my father into the grave, and takes away the person that my mother was supposed to grow old together with, I have a serious problem when she's not getting every bit of support that VAC is supposed to be providing.  Don't complain to me - complain to VAC, complain to your MP, or complain to your dog.  As far as I'm concerned, any claim my mother raises is just as important as any other claim raised today.  Those WWII/Korea/etc. vets are still alive and are still able to enjoy life, albeit with a disability perhaps.  That's no more or less important than my mother, who lost her life partner and breadwinner because of a service-related condition.
 
the 48th regulator said:
So your mission is to protect the Korean Veteran now....Please crusader, stop before you hit a speed bump.  My mission is to stop the likes of you, on behalf of those from the Korean war, First World war, Second World war, every Godamn peacekeeping mission, and Afghanistan, from the likes of an Opportunist like you.

Opportunist?  Yeah, I'm getting a lot out of this.

Remind me what it is I'm getting in personal gain again?

That is what I am fighting for.

You'll deny it, but when it comes down to it, you and I are fighting for exactly the same thing.  Sleep on that.
 
Public Service Health Care Plan.  A Plan to cover the health needs of Canada's Public Civil Servants.  Run by and administered by the Public Service.  DND and the CF, as well as the RCMP, only recently joined this plan.  This is not a DND plan.  It is not a Veteran's Affairs plan.  It is not a CF plan.  It is a plan for all of Canada's Federal Civil Servants.
 
George Wallace said:
Public Service Health Care Plan.  A Plan to cover the health needs of Canada's Public Civil Servants.  Run by and administered by the Public Service.  DND and the CF, as well as the RCMP, only recently joined this plan.  This is not a DND plan.  It is not a Veteran's Affairs plan.  It is not a CF plan.  It is a plan for all of Canada's Federal Civil Servants.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TB_862/pshcpd-drssfp/pshcpd-drssfp03_e.asp

III – Pensioners

  1. Any person in receipt of an ongoing recognised pension, survivor's or children's benefit pursuant to an Act identified in Schedule IV, as amended from time to time by the Treasury Board of Canada, is eligible to join or to continue coverage under the PSHCP when their pension becomes payable (except those persons who immediately prior to retirement were employed by a non-participating organisation on or after the specified date as identified in Schedule II of this Plan Document).
  2. Any individual who is a member of the VAC client group as defined in Schedule III is eligible to join the Plan.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TB_862/pshcpd-drssfp/pshcpd-drssfp21_e.asp

Schedule III - Designated Persons, Boards and Agencies

The following persons, boards and agencies as amended from time to time by the Treasury Board of Canada were designated by Treasury Board of Canada, on the date shown, as being eligible to join the Plan:

(...)

VI) Effective April 1, 2006

- Former members of the Canadian Forces (CF Veterans) who have been approved for benefits under the Service Income Security Insurance Plan Long Term Disability (SISIP LTD) who do not otherwise have PSHCP;
- Veterans of the Canadian Forces (CF) with a rehabilitation need that is service related, identified by Veterans' Affairs Canada (VAC), who do not otherwise have post-release PSHCP eligibility;
- Survivors* of veterans and members of the Canadian Forces who have died as a result of military service when the survivors do not otherwise have PSHCP eligibility.
 
284_226 said:
See?  You're not reading what's being put in front of you.  I told you that my mother was granted the pension 5 years ago.  What she can't appeal is the ruling of ineligibility for PSHCP benefits that came about from a piece of legislation that only came into force 8 months ago.

Do you even know how the process is done?  If she makes a new claim, based on what she she believes she deserves, then this will be looked at.  If denied she has the power to appeal.  Do you even know how the process works?  You really are out of control, and I feel for both MP's who have had to unfortunate pleasure of dealing with you, let alone VAC and any other Government body in your sights.

284_226 said:
What on gawd's green earth are you going on about?

284_226 said:
And a darn fine example of snipping the beejeesus out of context it was.

Hey, that's great how you want to shove our Korea vets to the back of the bus.  Lovely.  Just lovely.

It'll please you to no end that there'll be very few of them left within 10 years, so you can have the system all to yourself.


I am sorry, but I will have to break the sites rules with this statement.  You Son, are a tool.  Plain and simple, a tool.  In fact I will call you a wedge the most basic of them all.  You are trying to "Wedge" yourself in anyway you can, into benefits not designed for your Mother.  Why, because of your own personal agendas.  You come here spewing your rhetoric, and when we try to offer our opinion and advice you attack us.

Go on and trundle off somewhere else with your crusade, and may you one day understand that you are hurting all of us Veterans with your agenda.  Don't sugar coat it with the fact your helping dear old mum, as it is plain why you want this to work in your her favour.  I should put you on ignore, as I have been advised, which may shut you  up.  However the part about me, that had to suffer with appeals due to delays brought by the likes of you, just won't allow me to let go.

dileas

tess
 
the 48th regulator said:
Do you even know how the process is done?  If she makes a new claim, based on what she she believes she deserves, then this will be looked at.  If denied she has the power to appeal.  Do you even know how the process works?  You really are out of control, and I feel for both MP's who have had to unfortunate pleasure of dealing with you, let alone VAC and any other Government body in your sights.

I'm quite conversant with how the process works.  After all, I did tell you that I was the one that assisted my father with the initial application, and assisted my mother with the appeal process when she was initially turned down.  I must've done a fairly good job of getting my point across, since they reversed their decision and went from "benefits denied" to "100% disability".

Now, let me explain how it works to YOU.  One makes a new claim if one believes their condition has worsened, or if they have a new condition exacerbated by a pensioned condition, causing additional hardship/pain/loss of mobility/etc.  Considering the claim was made by my father, do you honestly believe that we could successfully claim that he is any more DEAD than he is right now??  That, sir, is the explanation gave to me when we initially raised questions about PSHCP coverage in April 2006.  In THIS case, it is not a new CLAIM that is submitted, because there is no change in the member's health - he's still DEAD.  In this case, it is a mere application for PSHCP coverage that is submitted - the form at http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=forces/nvc/programs/ghi - and the result of that application was that she was deemed to be ineligible and there is no appeal process because there is no additional disability being claimed.  Even BPA says that's a fair assessment, and their job is appeals.  Got it?

I am sorry, but I will have to break the sites rules with this statement.  You Son, are a tool.  Plain and simple, a tool.  In fact I will call you a wedge the most basic of them all.  You are trying to "Wedge" yourself in anyway you can, into benefits not designed for your Mother.  Why, because of your own personal agendas.  You come here spewing your rhetoric, and when we try to offer our opinion and advice you attack us.

I did NOT come here with any sort of agenda.  Any suggestion that there is some sort of hidden agenda in play is nothing short of a product of your overworked imagination.  Why else would you have gone to the lengths of making an accusation that I was ACTUALLY the fella from Gagetown that was released for kidney stones, and I was on some mad hunt for money?  I also did not come here seeking your opinion or your advice - I spent a great deal of time writing and re-writing my initial post so as to address the concerns you and the site owner raised.  I made it quite clear that I was only seeking to advise others who are in a similar position that they should take up the issue with their MP, because VAC's front line workers made it quite clear that they believed the eligibility criteria were interpreted properly and that the only people who could change that interpretation were those who drafted it - the committees and Members of Parliament.

Go on and trundle off somewhere else with your crusade, and may you one day understand that you are hurting all of us Veterans with your agenda.  Don't sugar coat it with the fact your helping dear old mum, as it is plain why you want this to work in your her favour.  I should put you on ignore, as I have been advised, which may shut you  up.  However the part about me, that had to suffer with appeals due to delays brought by the likes of you, just won't allow me to let go.

What agenda?  Is getting VAC to properly interpret and apply their own piece of legislation an agenda?  You STILL insist that I'm getting something out of this - why don't you grow a pair and say what it is?  Do tell me what I could possibly gain from ensuring that a veteran's survivor gets a benefit that a recent change in legislation grants.

You're b*tching at the wrong person.  Don't take it out on me, and don't take it out on the members of this forum.  Your problem is with Veterans Affairs and insufficient staff in their offices to complete the workload presented to them.  Feel free to take it out on your MP.  But don't you DARE take aim at me for helping someone make a legitimate claim for a benefit that is available to them under VAC legislation.  I am sincerely sympathetic to any difficulties you're having with VAC as a result of your clearly service-related disability, as well as anyone else's - but your quarrel is not with me, it's with VAC and the people who write legislation in this country.

I strongly suggest you take the advice of whoever is advising you to engage your "ignore" button.  Evidently you have a problem with target identification.
 
284_226,

Is your mother receiving the benefits that were due to her effective the date of your father's death, in accordance with the program he contributed to while a serving member?

 
Michael O'Leary said:
284_226,

Is your mother receiving the benefits that were due to her effective the date of your father's death, in accordance with the program he contributed to while a serving member?

Yes; however, the question is an irrelevant one.  New programs are constantly being created, regardless of whatever federal department one is talking about.  When new programs are created, eligibility criteria are established.  If a given group of people are to be excluded, then it has to be stipulated in the legislation.

For example:  from http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=e_services/newapp
The Canadian Forces Members and Veterans Re-Establishment and Compensation Act and accompanying Regulations are anticipated to come into force as early as April 1, 2006.

This legislation affects Canadian Forces members and Veterans who served after April 1, 1947 (except for Korean War service during the period July 5, 1950 to October 31, 1953 inclusive).

My father served from 1950 to 1955.  His disability pension (and consequently, my mother's Survivor Benefit) was indeed based on the Pension Act, and was based primarily (but not solely) on his Korean War service.  He did, however, have additional service beyond 27 July 1953, which was the end of the Korean War as specified by the Pension Act.  So, from the passage above, it's clear that the NVC also applies to him.  It is true that a disability pension was awarded under the Pension Act, and a Survivor Benefit was awarded under the Pension Act, but that there is also eligibility for any new programs under the NVC.  The "Health Benefits" provision is one of the new programs.  And, as I've already pointed out, at http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=forces/nvc/programs/ghi, it states:

Who can benefit from the health benefits program?
You may qualify if you are a:
  • CF Veteran who has been approved for benefits under the Service Income Security Insurance Plan Long Term Disability (SISIP LTD) and you do not otherwise qualify for PSHCP;
  • CF Veteran with a rehab need related to service and who does not otherwise qualify for PSHCP after your release; or
  • the survivor of a CF member or a CF Veteran whose death is service-related, and does not otherwise qualify for PSHCP.


So, as far as the NVC is concerned...

Member's service outside the Korean War exclusion dates?  Check.
Member's death was service-related?  Check.
Survivor does not otherwise qualify for PSHCP?  Check.

Listen, this discussion is obviously bothering some people more than it really should.  The fact of the matter is that there two possibilities in play here.  Either VAC intended to exclude anyone who was injured or died prior to the implementation date of the NVC from any benefits under the NVC - and produced a poorly worded piece of legislation to do it.  Or, VAC's intention was indeed to have the NVC apply to anyone who served after on or after 1 April 1947 (excluding Korea) as the above passage indicates, and is currently misinterpreting their own piece of legislation.

I'm prepared to shut the H-E double hockey sticks up about the whole thing until I hear from the Minister of Veterans Affairs, if everyone else is prepared to do the same.  The original intent of the post wasn't to generate discussion, it was to inform others that it certainly appeared that something was amiss at VAC, and that they might want to take steps about it.  If I'm wrong, I'll be quite happy to report back and eat a big honkin' serving of crow.  However, if I'm right, then someone owes me a flat of beer because a sizable group of people have been denied a benefit that they should have been eligible for.

Deal?
 
284_226 said:
I'm prepared to shut the H-E double hockey sticks up about the whole thing until I hear from the Minister of Veterans Affairs, if everyone else is prepared to do the same.  The original intent of the post wasn't to generate discussion, it was to inform others that it certainly appeared that something was amiss at VAC, and that they might want to take steps about it.  If I'm wrong, I'll be quite happy to report back and eat a big honkin' serving of crow.  However, if I'm right, then someone owes me a flat of beer because a sizable group of people have been denied a benefit that they should have been eligible for.

Deal?

Well it has been a substantial time since we last spoke on the subject, enough for the big red tape emitting machine to spew it's answers.  I have already drank the flat of beer, and the crow is in the pot.

How are things coming along?

dileas

tess
 
the 48th regulator said:
Well it has been a substantial time since we last spoke on the subject, enough for the big red tape emitting machine to spew it's answers.  I have already drank the flat of beer, and the crow is in the pot.

How are things coming along?

Interesting you should ask.  Letters were sent to both the Minister of Veteran's Affairs and the Minister of National Defence.  I have to assume that Ministerial Inquiries were made within VAC, because a few weeks after the letters were sent, I received a phone call from a lawyer with Veterans Affairs.

I informed him of the details of the situation, and that we felt that there was nothing in the NVC that would remove eligibility for benefits (specifically the Health Care Benefit aka PSHCP) to members injured or killed prior to the implementation date of the NVC.  I also mentioned the several references within the NVC to eligibility of Korea vets and the April 1 1947 date.  His response was something to the effect of "Well, it just doesn't apply to them".  I replied "Could you tell me what section of the NVC states that?".

His response was "Hold on a sec...<3 or 4 minute pause>...umm...You're right.  Ummm...I think it might be in the Regulations".  I then asked him if the Regulations were available online.  He replied "No, not that I'm aware of...hold on a sec, I think I have a copy here...<sound of pages flipping>....Ohhhh.  I can't find them.  I'll take your name and number and see if I can get you a copy".  Haven't heard from him since.  (note:  A lawyer for Veterans Affairs doesn't have a copy of their bread and butter legislation handy?  That'd be like a criminal lawyer that doesn't own a copy of the Criminal Code.)

Since then, the Canadian Forces Members and Veterans Re-establishment and Compensation Regulations have appeared online at http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDoc/cr/SOR-2006-50///en.

Hmmm...doesn't appear like there's anything in there that states members injured/killed prior to the implementation date aren't covered under the NVC, or that survivors of those veterans didn't become eligible for PSHCP as of the coming into force date of the legislation, but feel free to take a look yourself.  Remember, it was never my argument that the survivors would be eligible to "double dip" (ie. the death benefit) - the Health Benefits provision was a new benefit under the NVC, and it didn't exist under the old charter.

I'll wait a few more weeks and see if the Ministerial Inquiries turn up any responses, and then make a few phone calls and see if anyone knows if action is being taken on it.  If there's nothing being done on it, then I think I might take Peter Stoffer up on his offer of going to the media with it.  VAC seems to be remaining awfully silent on the subject.  Maybe they're waiting for the affected people to die off so the issue becomes moot.
 
Good stuff,

And make sure you  relay the name of the lawyer, from VAC, that said you were correct, nothing better than that!

He could be brought up as a witness if you ever take this to court.

dileas

tess
 
the 48th regulator said:
Link was bad,

Did you mean this one?

Sorry, didn't see this post until now - if you mean the link I posted to the NVC Regulations was bad, it still seems to be working...although your link gets you there as well.

Update:

I've received correspondence from both the President of the Treasury Board, and the Minister of Veterans Affairs.  Actually, I received an e-mail that looks like it was typed by the 7-year old son of the President of the Treasury Board, but at least it was a response.

Both responses toed the party line that, and I'll quote from both of the letters... "Effective April 1, 2006, the Treasury Board Secretariat extended eligibility to the PSHCP to a specified group of Veteran's Affairs Canada's clients.  Under this provision, only those survivors of Canadian Forces (CF) members or Veterans who died on or after April 1, 2006, are eligible for the Plan1 as part of the Department's2 client group".

1.  PSHCP
2.  Department of Veterans Affairs

Now, consider that I've posted the links to the PSHCP Directive dated 1 April 2006, which contains a section entitled "Eligibility", and further refers to members of the VAC client group as defined at Schedule III.  Schedule III states that  "The following persons ... were designated by Treasury Board of Canada, on the date shown, as being eligible to join the Plan", and goes on to state that on 1 April 2006, the following client group became eligible - "Survivors of veterans and members of the Canadian Forces who have died as a result of military service when the survivors do not otherwise have PSHCP eligibility".

Does anyone see anything here that refers to the date of death of the member?  I sure don't.  There's nothing in the NVC or the Regulations that form part of the NVC, either.

Not one, but two federal departments completely ignored my very specifically worded request for them to clearly describe where in the NVC or TBS Directive it was stated that members/veterans who died prior to April 1, 2006 were excluded from eligibility in the PSHCP.

So, we're going to the media.  Peter Stoffer is absolutely floored at this one...and has again offered his help.
 
I agree with you. I could not find it in the legislation, but possibly it is in their equivalent of CFAO/DAOD's. That means someone has taken the legislation, interrupted the meaning, and amplified the legislation into e.g. CFAO/DAOD's. Sounds like they are going from the effective date of the legislation, with no retroactivity.
 
Rifleman62 said:
I agree with you. I could not find it in the legislation, but possibly it is in their equivalent of CFAO/DAOD's. That means someone has taken the legislation, interrupted the meaning, and amplified the legislation into e.g. CFAO/DAOD's. Sounds like they are going from the effective date of the legislation, with no retroactivity.

It's kind of interesting, actually.  Retroactivity doesn't matter, the way they've worded it.  They've stated that effective 1 April 2006, the group of people described at Schedule III became eligible for PSHCP.  They didn't include any qualifying statements that would restrict eligibility, such as "Only survivors of veterans who died on or after 1 April 2006 are eligible for PSHCP coverage".  The way it's worded, if you're a survivor of a CF member or Veteran who died as a result of a service-related condition, you became eligible for PSHCP coverage effective 1 April 2006 - regardless of the date of death of the member.
 
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