Ask The CSE Chief

[RickDevlieger]

CSE Chief, considering the Single Naval Combat Operator was put on hold do you think this project will run into the same problems? (ie more expensive training costs)

I am not certain what all of the issues were with a common operator trade. But in our case, much of our common tasks and training lends itself to a common trade. Each trade performs identical tasks on different equipments. The difference being the knowledge required to apply common skills to different systems/equipments/technologies. This concept was confirmed by the work done under MOSART and now being carried on by OSIP (Occupation Structure Implementation Plan) likely to start with the first common tradesmen in 2010.

As for training costs: There is a trade off between training and flexibility. If we trained everyone to do everything, we would have an extremely flexible organization although it would require many years of training to achieve that. The other way is to reduce training to the point that each sailor can only do a few things. This would result in a very rigid organization, a requirement for more bunks than ships normally have and if one person is unavailable, the mission is in jeopardy. The idea here is to find a balance which best serves the Navy and the sailors.

 

[Harley Sailor]

We understand that it is more cost efficent to have one school and one course for sailors who work in close fields. What we don't understand is why it has to be one trade, when only 50% of our training is the same, and less then 50% of what we do is the same.

 

[RickDevlieger]

The current proposal is "One" trade to the QL5A level then six specialties which are their own trades with separate merit lists etc and then combining again at the PO1 Level, where once again, the job is the same.

 

[Harley Sailor]

Who gets to decide which trade you go in at the QL5 level?

 

[RickDevlieger]

That would be me  ;D  (or my successor by the time we have the new CS QL5)

Seriously, one of the deliverables of the staff working OSIP is the selection criteria/process at the QL5 level. Obviously, personal preferences would be taken into account, but, as always, the needs of the service trump all.

 

[Harley Sailor]

So then does it really matter if we have a name the will look good to the recuit. All he will know is that he is joining the Naval Combat Techinical world.  The maybe he will get to be in the trade he wants.  With them odds why would anyone want to join our trade.  I could be joining because I want to be an NW Tech like my friend is and after 4 years find out I have to be a com tech. No Thank You.

We tried that once before. Y-tep I think the program was called. It was a big failure.

 

[Harley Sailor]

We like to watch the movies in the messes.

Just joking.  We have enough equipment that are not weapons and therefore not required to be up all the time.  The CANTASS is not required all the time.  The are also three cranes.  Spaces to clean.  We can also do some things without taking the systems down.

 

[CivCanuck]

Approximately how long will the trade merger take? I mean, how long until the recruiting office and website no longer use the current trades?

 

[RickDevlieger]

The change over of the Trades will begin 2010. It will start with recruiting and then training the first group. These guys will join the ships as the yet to be named combined CS Tech.They will go through there OJTs to get their QL4 qualification, followed by a package to expose them to each of the possible specialty trades. completion of this will give them their QL5A. This process will take approx 48 months. After specialty training (QL5B?) they will go to a ship which will be reorganized IAW the new trades Structure.

At the same time, many of the current QL3s and QL5s will be doing some cross training. Note that this will be occurring at the same time training is changing for FELEX. FELEX involves a large trg delta for all techs so we are simply using the opportunity to piggy back the trg delta for the trade restructuring at the same time.

The short answer is that the whole process will take between 5 and 7 years before all ships are organized IAW the new CS trades. It will very likely be in lockstep with FELEX. As a ship comes out of the FELEX refit, the CSE Dept will be reorganized.

 

[Chief Gunner]

Just to clarify a few points.

1. All Naval occupations are subject to the Naval Occupation Review (as ordered by the Chief of Military Personnel) this includes the combat operator occupations. Although it is presumptious to assume that his will result in a 'COMMON COMBAT OPERATOR' it would also be foolish to dismiss the possibility as new CCS software with greater commonality of function enters service. This review is definitely not on hold. As a point of interest all reviews will include an OSIP which includes a pay review.

2. If on-watch CSE personnel are watching the movie, this is not an employment issue but a leadership issue.

3. Within the CSE Department academic education for all trades is pretty much the same with the exception of NW Tech who receive extensive mechanical education in addition to the big 'E' technician training that all NETs get. In the applications or equipment training there are presently significant differences in the types and lengths of training. The occupation review addresses this and the fact that the work load is not equitably distributed between the occupations. Result equalized training requirements, equalized training time, and equalized work load.

4. Who gets to choose what specialist trade you will become? Well if you are presently a member of the CSE department this should be pretty obvious to you. If not then you will be selected based on a number of criteria, not just the needs of the service. This is where you as an individual affect the process. If you have no mechanical aptitude and show zero interest in the weapons occupation you are unlikely to be selected for it. It is better for the trade to be slightly underborne or overborne for a short period than have unsuitable employed in it. Every effort will be made to select the right man/woman for the right job. If you are unhappy with the result of the selection process you have the normal administrative options of occupation transfer, redress, release, etc available to you.

He who rejects change is the architect of decay. 
The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery.  ~Harold Wilson

 

[who980]

I have a couple of questions. 

What will happen to people who are in the midst of the  training system (pre-QL5) while the CSE department re-org is occuring?  Will they remain in their chosen MOC or will they be remustered into the common tech occupation?

Would previous trade skills be looked at for selection of specialization at the QL5 level (post re-org) ?  For example, if I were a Nav Comm and wanted to go NET(C) or what ever it will be called.. would that come into account?  (currently looking into an OT... but don't want to get shoveled into an occupation I don't want to be in.. so this will weigh into whether or not I go forward with the OT)

Cheers
Ryan

 

[Chief Gunner]

I have a couple of questions. 

What will happen to people who are in the midst of the  training system (pre-QL5) while the CSE department re-org is occuring?  Will they remain in their chosen MOC or will they be remustered into the common tech occupation?

Would previous trade skills be looked at for selection of specialization at the QL5 level (post re-org) ?  For example, if I were a Nav Comm and wanted to go NET(C) or what ever it will be called.. would that come into account?  (currently looking into an OT... but don't want to get shoveled into an occupation I don't want to be in.. so this will weigh into whether or not I go forward with the OT)

Cheers
Ryan

Ryan;

Although all the details are yet to be in ironed out, there will be a transitional period. The process will be most complex for the people spread through the entry level. Those that are journeyman level will experience some minor changes and those at the supervisor and manager level will not experience much change at all. The present intent is to switch everyone over on a specific, yet to be decide date. There are other factors such as the timing of HCM FELEX that must be taken under consideration. I can assure you that the NET(C) trade is open for VOT in at this time and will be for some time to come. If you are interested I am sure your previous experience can only work to your favour.

Cheers

 

[who980]

Chief Gunner,

Thanks for the reply regarding my questions. 

I have another question if possible.  I am trying to gauge the level of mathematics on the tech QL3.  Is there a QSP or a list of definitive subject matter available (on the DIN perhaps?) so that I can gauge where I need to aim my mathematic upgrading....

I heard from some NET(C)'s that there is a pre-academic course now.  Is this a course to bring ones mathematics skills up?  I know that the current Occ Specs available from our BPSO's website says that Math 10 is the minimum required (so does the recruiting website) but is this realistic?  Or would you recommend one upgraded to university/college level before attempting?

Regards
Ryan

 

[GrumpyCommTech]

Chief Gunner,

Thanks for the reply regarding my questions. 

I have another question if possible.  I am trying to gauge the level of mathematics on the tech QL3.  Is there a QSP or a list of definitive subject matter available (on the DIN perhaps?) so that I can gauge where I need to aim my mathematic upgrading....

I heard from some NET(C)'s that there is a pre-academic course now.  Is this a course to bring ones mathematics skills up?  I know that the current Occ Specs available from our BPSO's website says that Math 10 is the minimum required (so does the recruiting website) but is this realistic?  Or would you recommend one upgraded to university/college level before attempting?

Regards
Ryan

Ryan,
 
        To get a copy of the QL3 and QL5 QSP's for NET(C) , go to halifax.mil.ca on the DIN. Go to the N1 column on the page sidebar and pick CFNES. Go to CSE Division and click under the QC entry. The QSP's are listed below on the page. The EdO's will outline the academic topics covered including the outline for the instructed math subjects.

        If you have advanced Grade 10 math and did reasonably well, you should have only minor difficulties during training. ALso, there are plenty of library/bookstore resources for basic electronics and technical algebra. Most students have problems more with the electronics math theory than the strictly highschool level math on course. Kirshoffs law and Thevinins theorem can be mind twisters. When I was on course, those many years ago, I bought a number of good basic electronics books that helped me immensely.

Last I checked, for CFNES QL3 students there was a pre-ack. NCSTTP students went directly to St. John's MUN, a full college diploma for two years and were expected to hump it like "normal" post-secondary students. Even more for the new SEP program, who are "normal" post secondary students.

        Anyway, I am rambling. Hope this Helps you out.


     

 

[who980]

Ryan,
 
         To get a copy of the QL3 and QL5 QSP's for NET(C) , go to halifax.mil.ca on the DIN. Go to the N1 column on the page sidebar and pick CFNES. Go to CSE Division and click under the QC entry. The QSP's are listed below on the page. The EdO's will outline the academic topics covered including the outline for the instructed math subjects.

         If you have advanced Grade 10 math and did reasonably well, you should have only minor difficulties during training. ALso, there are plenty of library/bookstore resources for basic electronics and technical algebra. Most students have problems more with the electronics math theory than the strictly highschool level math on course. Kirshoffs law and Thevinins theorem can be mind twisters. When I was on course, those many years ago, I bought a number of good basic electronics books that helped me immensely.

Last I checked, for CFNES QL3 students there was a pre-ack. NCSTTP students went directly to St. John's MUN, a full college diploma for two years and were expected to hump it like "normal" post-secondary students. Even more for the new SEP program, who are "normal" post secondary students.

        Anyway, I am rambling. Hope this Helps you out

This indeed does help.  Thanks for this information as it definatly alleviates some concerns I had.

Ryan

 

[Chief Gunner]

Chief Gunner,

Thanks for the reply regarding my questions. 

I have another question if possible.  I am trying to gauge the level of mathematics on the tech QL3.  Is there a QSP or a list of definitive subject matter available (on the DIN perhaps?) so that I can gauge where I need to aim my mathematic upgrading....

I heard from some NET(C)'s that there is a pre-academic course now.  Is this a course to bring ones mathematics skills up?   I know that the current Occ Specs available from our BPSO's website says that Math 10 is the minimum required (so does the recruiting website) but is this realistic?  Or would you recommend one upgraded to university/college level before attempting?

Regards
Ryan

Ryan

The CFNES DIN Site has many CS Tech QSPs posted on it. The DMTE Site at CMS might have them as well. If they do not then let me know and I will get the QSP to you.

There is a pre-academic course intended primarily to review the grade 10 academic (Ontario) math and Grade 11 physics subject matter in a few weeks.  As you stated this is the minimum required. There is also an aptitude requirement. General math, business math or any other will not prepare you for the course. The higher the level of math and physics you have the better. By the end of the journeyman course you will be doing all sorts of fun stuff like calculus & laplace transforms.

good luck and remember my three 'A's - APTITUDE - ATTITUDE - APPLICATION -

 

[2fly]

I am not sure if you got all of your answers from here but here is my 0.02.  I was 34 years old when I started throught CFNES.  Now at almost 39, I am done all of my QL3, 4 and 5's for NETC and can comment on the education requirements.  Prior to starting my QL3 and PreAcc (I was on the first pre-acc course), I took an Alberta grade 11 math course to prep me for the math requirements at CFNES.  From my experience, the math at CFNES is much harder than the math 10.  I would for sure brush up on the math since for NETC training you rely on it through the whole program up to and including the differential calculus that is covered in the QL5 academics.  For various reasons, people failed or removed themselves from training so that when we started with 24 we only graduated with 8.  Mind you, some of them where re-coursed and have now completed training but it was not woth my group.  I hope that helps.

 

[WaitingTime]

Does NCS ENG get affected by this change as well?  What are the occupation training like for NCS ENG?  Is it on the same level of difficulty as MARS training?  There are a lot of topic that covers MARS officer on this forum, but not many topics talk about NCS ENG.

 

[RickDevlieger]

NCS Eng training is not effected by the restructuring of of the CS Technical trades except indirectly. NCS Eng go through their own training system. How it would compare as far as difficulty to MARS training I cannot say. The training is very different, what may be easy for one may be very difficult for another, hence the utility of aptitude testing.

I have only had experience with the practical parts of NCS Training where trainees are posted to a ship and have to complete a number of requirements and then sit a board afterwards. The boards consist of drawing from memory one or two of the  Ship's combat systems and then explain to a board how it works, limitations capabilities, casualty modes of operation etc. He would be asked some questions on the theory behind the system as well as questions on some of the idiosyncrasies of a given system.  It is quite a challenging process and I have seen some candidates pooch it a couple of times before getting through their Phase VI boards.

 

[Chief Gunner]

Does NCS ENG get affected by this change as well?  What are the occupation training like for NCS ENG?  Is it on the same level of difficulty as MARS training?  There are a lot of topic that covers MARS officer on this forum, but not many topics talk about NCS ENG.

Your question about the difficulty of training is hard to answer. What is difficult for one person is easy for another. They are both challenging occupations that require a siginificant amount of training. However the training is different for both, as are the jobs.

The training for NCS Eng is conducted in several phases (After your degree program and BOTC) and goes pretty much like this

Phase One
The Naval Combat Systems Engineering Applications Course
Location: CFNES Halifax - 113 Training Days

The Naval Combat Systems Engineering Applications Course (CSEAC) provides students seeking the NCS Eng Basic Officer qualification  (OSQ AIRX) with the detailed theoretical knowledge necessary to meet this objective. Student instruction includes:

Control Theory
Fluid Power
Guns
Missiles
UW Weapons
Fire Control
Inertial Navigation
GPS
Speed Logs
Navigation Distribution
E-charts
Echo Sounders
SHRS
TACAN
Communications Theory
Internal Communications
external Communications
satellite Communications
Communications control
MPSs
Electro-Magnetic Theory
Antenna's
RADAR Theory
RADAR Applications
IFF
EO/IR
DSP
SONAR Theory
SONAR Applications
Acoustic Countermeasures
C2 System Theory
C2 System Hardware
C2 System Software
C2 System Operations
Analog Electronics Theory
Digital Electronics Theory
Computer Networks Theory
Tactical Data Link
EW Theory
ESM
ECM
Ammunition
Signature Management
Risk Management
RADHAZ
HAZMAT
ERT

Phase TwoAt sea requirements (lets call it OJT for up to a year)
Consolidation of the above equipment training in the real world

Phase Three
At Sea Assistant Head of Department (1 year usually)
Learning to be a department head (More OJT)

This is in addition to all the other stuff like Officer Of The Day, OPMEs etc.