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CRCN Message on the Steward Occupation Town Hall (Steward trade elimination)

dapaterson

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If a unit is dropping trained people to Pte B then their HHQ is failing.

I suspect the highest ranking individuals may take a 5c release and get CAF Severance Pay, rather than undergo a COT.
 

rmc_wannabe

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So could we potentially see CPO1's drop all the way to S1 or whatever they are calling LS right now? I know in the Army when you switch trades you normally drop to Cpl. I know one reserve unit that drops people to PteB, but that's another story.
CPO1s are their own MOSID now (00385) so I don't foresee them getting dropped from this.

Also, depending on the reason for COT, there is not necessarily a reduction in rank. The RCCS COTed whole trades into new ones without rank reduction because it was CA led decision, vice due to inability or medical grounds. That was a mess of it's own, but we didn't see swaths of SNCOs drop to Cpl because of it. Same with the Cyber Op folks when they stood up.

What I can see happening is a 5 year grace period for these folks to retain rank, retain rate of pay, get qualified in their new trade, and then close the books on Steward.

To do anything else would cause another ACISS like debacle, and I wouldn't wish that even on the RCN....
 

Halifax Tar

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(1) CPO1s are their own MOSID now (00385) so I don't foresee them getting dropped from this.

(2) Also, depending on the reason for COT, there is not necessarily a reduction in rank. The RCCS COTed whole trades into new ones without rank reduction because it was CA led decision, vice due to inability or medical grounds. That was a mess of it's own, but we didn't see swaths of SNCOs drop to Cpl because of it. Same with the Cyber Op folks when they stood up.

What I can see happening is a 5 year grace period for these folks to retain rank, retain rate of pay, get qualified in their new trade, and then close the books on Steward.

To do anything else would cause another ACISS like debacle, and I wouldn't wish that even on the RCN....

(1) Bingo, thank you. Former STWs now CPO1s are unaffected by this.

(2) The RCN can make acceptations and accept rank equivalency's in the trades it manages. That's the RCNs course to plot.

The trouble will arise when former STWs attempt COT to a CMP or otherwise managed trade. That will be another fight all together. And I don't foresee it going well for the STWs. Lastly throw in the aptitude requirements and its going to be rough for some.

This will probably terminally cripple the careers a large portion of those succession managed in the STW occupation.
 

Ostrozac

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Food prep duties can be handled by adding another couple of cooks, who can then also do all of the cook jobs. Cleaning can be handled by the officers. The Jr ranks, and C&POs have managed to learn to clean their spaces... NPF should likely be handled by FIN people, since FIN is now it's own occupation. The other tasks, can be handled by the extra Log folks likely to be added to the ship's company to fill the spaces left by the Stewards.
All of that would work fine if there are enough logisticians to fill those gaps — which appears not to be the case. There is a risk the RCN will drive away people who actually wanted to sail at the same time they can’t actually attract, train and retain their replacements.
 

Furniture

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All of that would work fine if there are enough logisticians to fill those gaps — which appears not to be the case. There is a risk the RCN will drive away people who actually wanted to sail at the same time they can’t actually attract, train and retain their replacements.
It is a risk, but there is also a risk in maintaining an occupation that really doesn't have an operational raison d'être. Pers who could be better used doing operational jobs are spending time training to fold napkins, carve flowers in butter, and plan parties.

Obviously Stewards do more than that, but nothing else they do can't be done as well/better by other occupations.

Want more food prep pers? Hire cooks who specialize in handling and cooking food.

Want the NPF managed well? Hire more FSAs who specialize in finance.

Want more First Aid expertise? Train more of your other pers in advanced First Aid.

Want the barracks and messes run? Hire civies...

There are great people in the Steward occupation, and I feel bad for the ones that will inevitably get screwed by this, but that doesn't mean getting rid of Stewards is a bad choice for the institution.
 

Halifax Tar

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It is a risk, but there is also a risk in maintaining an occupation that really doesn't have an operational raison d'être. Pers who could be better used doing operational jobs are spending time training to fold napkins, carve flowers in butter, and plan parties.

Obviously Stewards do more than that, but nothing else they do can't be done as well/better by other occupations.

Want more food prep pers? Hire cooks who specialize in handling and cooking food.

Want the NPF managed well? Hire more FSAs who specialize in finance.

Want more First Aid expertise? Train more of your other pers in advanced First Aid.

Want the barracks and messes run? Hire civies...

There are great people in the Steward occupation, and I feel bad for the ones that will inevitably get screwed by this, but that doesn't mean getting rid of Stewards is a bad choice for the institution.

Well put.

I have some good friends in the STW occupation. We are/were (?) in the same Dept; And this has been a tough pill for them to swallow. But like @Furniture states it is the right choice for the institution.
 

Navy_Pete

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It is a risk, but there is also a risk in maintaining an occupation that really doesn't have an operational raison d'être. Pers who could be better used doing operational jobs are spending time training to fold napkins, carve flowers in butter, and plan parties.

Obviously Stewards do more than that, but nothing else they do can't be done as well/better by other occupations.

Want more food prep pers? Hire cooks who specialize in handling and cooking food.

Want the NPF managed well? Hire more FSAs who specialize in finance.

Want more First Aid expertise? Train more of your other pers in advanced First Aid.

Want the barracks and messes run? Hire civies...

There are great people in the Steward occupation, and I feel bad for the ones that will inevitably get screwed by this, but that doesn't mean getting rid of Stewards is a bad choice for the institution.

So instead of having a generalist trade doing a bunch of different necessary taskings, hire a bunch of specialists and get them to do lower level tasks compared to what they are trained for? You don't need a fully trained cook to do juniour steward jobs, you don't need FSAs to manage NPF and the shore jobs are usually there to balance out the sea time, but right now the stewards are doing all of that.

Also, aren't all those trades already in distress? Fail to see how adding new positions will help if we can't fill positions we already have, with people we don't have, in a new element not everyone wants to work in.

So get rid of something that's working, add additional new stress on other trades, because all you think they do is fold napkins and do butter sculptures? Cunning plan, that, well thought out.

Courageous leadership would have been telling the trade this the week before at the CM meeting instead of saying it was all good, and then letting them find out in the paper. Smart leadership would have included having a plan in place for the transition and announcing details alongside side. We haven't done either.

This all reads more like a 'how not to' guide for implementing a major HR change, vice a bold change for long term institutional gain.

Fortunately the trade changes we've done so far are a bang up success, with retention rates and new hires better than ever, so I'm sure it will be fine.
 

Halifax Tar

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So instead of having a generalist trade doing a bunch of different necessary taskings, hire a bunch of specialists and get them to do lower level tasks compared to what they are trained for? You don't need a fully trained cook to do juniour steward jobs, you don't need FSAs to manage NPF and the shore jobs are usually there to balance out the sea time, but right now the stewards are doing all of that.

Also, aren't all those trades already in distress? Fail to see how adding new positions will help if we can't fill positions we already have, with people we don't have, in a new element not everyone wants to work in.

So get rid of something that's working, add additional new stress on other trades, because all you think they do is fold napkins and do butter sculptures? Cunning plan, that, well thought out.

Courageous leadership would have been telling the trade this the week before at the CM meeting instead of saying it was all good, and then letting them find out in the paper. Smart leadership would have included having a plan in place for the transition and announcing details alongside side. We haven't done either.

This all reads more like a 'how not to' guide for implementing a major HR change, vice a bold change for long term institutional gain.

Fortunately the trade changes we've done so far are a bang up success, with retention rates and new hires better than ever, so I'm sure it will be fine.

You and I have debated at length how the added work will affect the other trades. You see it as a big deal, and I don't. So I wont push that any further.

But you're patently incorrect in how this news was distributed. Reread the very first post in this thread and you will see CRCN and RCN CPO held a town hall with STWs and broke the news that way. They have also given 3 foxing years warning. What more could they have done ? The trade was going away, period.

And for the last time I will add this has been coming for at least a decade. And as the actual cliff approach the trade was scrambling to try and change the tack, think the fall of Saigon. From what I have learned recently, any STWs who were under the impression that their trade was going get new life were being mislead by their own trade on the RCN.
 

Furniture

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So instead of having a generalist trade doing a bunch of different necessary taskings, hire a bunch of specialists and get them to do lower level tasks compared to what they are trained for? You don't need a fully trained cook to do juniour steward jobs, you don't need FSAs to manage NPF and the shore jobs are usually there to balance out the sea time, but right now the stewards are doing all of that.

Also, aren't all those trades already in distress? Fail to see how adding new positions will help if we can't fill positions we already have, with people we don't have, in a new element not everyone wants to work in.

So get rid of something that's working, add additional new stress on other trades, because all you think they do is fold napkins and do butter sculptures? Cunning plan, that, well thought out.

Courageous leadership would have been telling the trade this the week before at the CM meeting instead of saying it was all good, and then letting them find out in the paper. Smart leadership would have included having a plan in place for the transition and announcing details alongside side. We haven't done either.

This all reads more like a 'how not to' guide for implementing a major HR change, vice a bold change for long term institutional gain.

Fortunately the trade changes we've done so far are a bang up success, with retention rates and new hires better than ever, so I'm sure it will be fine.
Actually, Jr. Steward food prep work is Cook work. Just because Stewards and Scullery Hands assist with it does not mean it isn't a cook function. If the justification for keeping Stewards around is food, then it's the wrong answer, because the CAF has a trade for that.

The Snr. Steward jobs with NPF are in the realm of finance, and unrelated to food prep... So why do we have an occupation that bounces from food prep/cleaning officers spaces, to finance? Does that seem like a wise use of limited billets in the CAF?

Could some of the RCNs retention issues be related to the way it treats it's people? Maybe sticking with 19th century ideas about how officers are served contributes to a toxic environment for Jr. pers?

@Halifax Tar already explained why you're wrong about the way it was communicated, so I won't belabor that point.

Lastly, you are correct in assessing that the RCN/CAF have been bad at making occupational changes, but you're ignoring that the changes happened because the old system was unsustainable. Keeping an occupation dedicated to serving officers is unsustainable, it needs to change. Other avenues were tried to keep the occupation relevant, but those have failed.

Occupations die, it's part of the CAF evolving to meet the needs of the times. I suspect in the next 10-20 years my occupation will die off, or be absorbed into another one.
 

ArmyRick

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Actually, Jr. Steward food prep work is Cook work. Just because Stewards and Scullery Hands assist with it does not mean it isn't a cook function. If the justification for keeping Stewards around is food, then it's the wrong answer, because the CAF has a trade for that.

The Snr. Steward jobs with NPF are in the realm of finance, and unrelated to food prep... So why do we have an occupation that bounces from food prep/cleaning officers spaces, to finance? Does that seem like a wise use of limited billets in the CAF?

Could some of the RCNs retention issues be related to the way it treats it's people? Maybe sticking with 19th century ideas about how officers are served contributes to a toxic environment for Jr. pers?

@Halifax Tar already explained why you're wrong about the way it was communicated, so I won't belabor that point.

Lastly, you are correct in assessing that the RCN/CAF have been bad at making occupational changes, but you're ignoring that the changes happened because the old system was unsustainable. Keeping an occupation dedicated to serving officers is unsustainable, it needs to change. Other avenues were tried to keep the occupation relevant, but those have failed.

Occupations die, it's part of the CAF evolving to meet the needs of the times. I suspect in the next 10-20 years my occupation will die off, or be absorbed into another one.
What is your MOSID/Trade?
 

Navy_Pete

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Actually, Jr. Steward food prep work is Cook work. Just because Stewards and Scullery Hands assist with it does not mean it isn't a cook function. If the justification for keeping Stewards around is food, then it's the wrong answer, because the CAF has a trade for that.

The Snr. Steward jobs with NPF are in the realm of finance, and unrelated to food prep... So why do we have an occupation that bounces from food prep/cleaning officers spaces, to finance? Does that seem like a wise use of limited billets in the CAF?

Could some of the RCNs retention issues be related to the way it treats it's people? Maybe sticking with 19th century ideas about how officers are served contributes to a toxic environment for Jr. pers?

@Halifax Tar already explained why you're wrong about the way it was communicated, so I won't belabor that point.

Lastly, you are correct in assessing that the RCN/CAF have been bad at making occupational changes, but you're ignoring that the changes happened because the old system was unsustainable. Keeping an occupation dedicated to serving officers is unsustainable, it needs to change. Other avenues were tried to keep the occupation relevant, but those have failed.

Occupations die, it's part of the CAF evolving to meet the needs of the times. I suspect in the next 10-20 years my occupation will die off, or be absorbed into another one.
The RCN isn't getting rid of the steward job requirements; they are just getting rid of the people that are doing the job now and then saying that magically it will get figured out who does it. At the moment, they help feed the crew, are a big part of casualty clearing, and part of pretty much every major evolution. All that stuff will still need done, so who is going to do it THAT ACTUALLY HAS A HEALTHY TRADE NUMBER TO TAKE ON NEW POSITIONS?

Cooks are on the list for recruitment bonuses, along with Martech and a number of other RCN trades. Most others are critically short, and lots of log branch folks on shortage messages when ships sail.

This does nothing for any kind of cultural change, and 'for the good of the institution' doesn't actually mean anything. It's been talked about for years with no action because no one has a feasible plan to make it happen.

A lot of officers clean their own cabins etc anyway, but you don't need to axe a trade to change that kind of daily routine. Personally was nice to do something easy, with a concrete result, so was something I did as a when I needed a break from the daily grind. It really doesn't take anything to just tell officers to clean their own cabins and swap out their own laundry (which again, a lot do anyway, because frankly it's weird to leave it to someone else).

This seems mostly like a decision to be a forcing function to make a change, regardless of whether or not it's a good idea. In terms of evolving, most evolutions are actually unsuccessful mutations that just die off, so change isn't inherently good (or bad). Some things we still do the same as 50 years ago because it works, and warships just don't have the space, layout or capacity to do a single cafeteria or similar things that are on the non-combatants.

I see this as yet another RCN MOC shitshow in the making, except this one is entirely unforced. 5 years doesn't even give enough time with how limited resources are to do things like amend MOC info, update training plans, etc so good luck there. We're on a 7+year timeline to figure out the HT replacement specialization on the MARTECH side, and that's something that is a known issue that is actively resulting in maintenance not getting done, shortages of different skills and other holes in ship capabilities. If they pull some of the TDO/NPTG folks into yet another trade update it's only going to slow down the entire enterprise.
 

dapaterson

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RCN repatriated Steward from Log a number of years ago, convinced they could best manage the trade...
 

Halifax Tar

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The RCN isn't getting rid of the steward job requirements; they are just getting rid of the people that are doing the job now and then saying that magically it will get figured out who does it. At the moment, they help feed the crew, are a big part of casualty clearing, and part of pretty much every major evolution. All that stuff will still need done, so who is going to do it THAT ACTUALLY HAS A HEALTHY TRADE NUMBER TO TAKE ON NEW POSITIONS?

Cooks are on the list for recruitment bonuses, along with Martech and a number of other RCN trades. Most others are critically short, and lots of log branch folks on shortage messages when ships sail.

This does nothing for any kind of cultural change, and 'for the good of the institution' doesn't actually mean anything. It's been talked about for years with no action because no one has a feasible plan to make it happen.

A lot of officers clean their own cabins etc anyway, but you don't need to axe a trade to change that kind of daily routine. Personally was nice to do something easy, with a concrete result, so was something I did as a when I needed a break from the daily grind. It really doesn't take anything to just tell officers to clean their own cabins and swap out their own laundry (which again, a lot do anyway, because frankly it's weird to leave it to someone else).

This seems mostly like a decision to be a forcing function to make a change, regardless of whether or not it's a good idea. In terms of evolving, most evolutions are actually unsuccessful mutations that just die off, so change isn't inherently good (or bad). Some things we still do the same as 50 years ago because it works, and warships just don't have the space, layout or capacity to do a single cafeteria or similar things that are on the non-combatants.

I see this as yet another RCN MOC shitshow in the making, except this one is entirely unforced. 5 years doesn't even give enough time with how limited resources are to do things like amend MOC info, update training plans, etc so good luck there. We're on a 7+year timeline to figure out the HT replacement specialization on the MARTECH side, and that's something that is a known issue that is actively resulting in maintenance not getting done, shortages of different skills and other holes in ship capabilities. If they pull some of the TDO/NPTG folks into yet another trade update it's only going to slow down the entire enterprise.

I suspect not all of those STW positions will be filled. COs STW, and Canteen/NPF Manager are my guess as the only two that will remain. COs STW will probably go to the cooks (S1/MS) and Canteen/NPF manager to Supply (PO2). The NPF books/accounting will likely be absorbed by the existing FSA establishment, not a huge added work load. The rest of the watch and station bill can be absorbed in the dept without much stress.

I expect the remainder of the billets to either be left empty/deleted, added as ATR, or perhaps given to Log (doubtful). You can use those bunks for staff and riders too. This guess is CPF specific as I am unaware of STW occupation establishments for AOPS or JSS.

RCN repatriated Steward from Log a number of years ago, convinced they could best manage the trade...

My understanding is that this had a lot to do with the rest of the CAF getting rid of the trade and some Snr STW leaders who really wanted to wear an anchor and not chain links as a cap badge.
 

Navy_Pete

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I suspect not all of those STW positions will be filled. COs STW, and Canteen/NPF Manager are my guess as the only two that will remain. COs STW will probably go to the cooks (S1/MS) and Canteen/NPF manager to Supply (PO2). The NPF books/accounting will likely be absorbed by the existing FSA establishment, not a huge added work load. The rest of the watch and station bill can be absorbed in the dept without much stress.

I expect the remainder of the billets to either be left empty/deleted, added as ATR, or perhaps given to Log (doubtful). You can use those bunks for staff and riders too. This guess is CPF specific as I am unaware of STW occupation establishments for AOPS or JSS.

And how do you expect the meal lines to work? There are only about 16 seats in the weirdroom with 40+ officers to cycle through. You still need someone to do the serving/scullery function to get folks through and the ships are designed to have all 3 messes in full operation as meal lines to get the 250 people through every meal. There isn't room to push them down to the main cave/C&POs, and there are all kinds of injuries from people carrying food up/down the ladders at sea (which comes up whenever someone says you don't need the dumbwaiter, which can be a pain in the ass to fix and certify).

Does it make any sense to get the officers to rotate around the servery as a secondary job? There are dedicated people working the steam lines in the C&POs, are you going to say that the juniour officers should rotate through as a secondary in the weirdroom on top of their watches? Try and figure out air crew around fly pro? Get HODs to do it around their full time job?

You also still need people with the first aid training for manning the SB/CCT, so you can't just gap the jobs or fill them with random staff weenies either without a direct operational impact in battle damage scenarios.

It's almost like stewards do a lot of things other than sculpt butter or manage the canteen, and there is a good reason why they are still actively employed on all the CPFs. The ships were designed to run with people doing those functions, and their training is set up around what they need to do for the ship to fight through battle damage. If you ignore the BS stereotypes of what people think they do, and look at what they actually do as part of the ships fighting organization, they haven't been replaced because there is no other trade that does bits and pieces of a lot of things that they do.

CSC will have the same space limitations requiring multiple steam lines and meal areas for the throughput, and similar CCT and other internal battle requirements so will also have to figure out who is going to do it on future warships.

Our warships and internal battle doctrine are built around people doing these specific tasks so this just makes no sense to me. Using AOPS as a justification just shows that the decision was made without looking at the completely different contexts between a non-combatant and a combatant, which is both stupid, and fundamentally a bit scary that someone is looking for a one size fits all solution for a fleet that is made up of such a wide mix of ships.

What's really going to happen is someone realizes we still need someone to do the basic stuff stewards are doing now, so they will tag someone with it as an out of core trade role, then scramble around to give random people first aid training to fill the CCT roles, and generally make a mess out of it. This is even less organized then when the FFs left the fleet, which we probably won't really recover from until 2030, if we can get the 'structural' specialization for the Martechs sorted out, with a lot of work arounds to make sure safety critical checks get done properly by people that have the right experience in the interim..
 

Halifax Tar

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And how do you expect the meal lines to work? There are only about 16 seats in the weirdroom with 40+ officers to cycle through. You still need someone to do the serving/scullery function to get folks through and the ships are designed to have all 3 messes in full operation as meal lines to get the 250 people through every meal. There isn't room to push them down to the main cave/C&POs, and there are all kinds of injuries from people carrying food up/down the ladders at sea (which comes up whenever someone says you don't need the dumbwaiter, which can be a pain in the ass to fix and certify).

Send a cook up with one scullery during meal hours and the Officers can line up and eat where there are seats. Both C&POs and the MS and below have way less seating than there are people they but they make it work. I have confidence this is not a bridge to far for our commissioned leaders. I haven't seen a dumb waiter work or be used in 16 years at sea yet we manage.

Does it make any sense to get the officers to rotate around the servery as a secondary job? There are dedicated people working the steam lines in the C&POs, are you going to say that the juniour officers should rotate through as a secondary in the weirdroom on top of their watches? Try and figure out air crew around fly pro? Get HODs to do it around their full time job?

Sounds like a problem for the wardom. But I provided a solution above.

You also still need people with the first aid training for manning the SB/CCT, so you can't just gap the jobs or fill them with random staff weenies either without a direct operational impact in battle damage scenarios.

You do realize the whole of the Log dept MS and below are CCTs right ? And most of the Log Dept Snr leadership is CCT section commanders ? SBs do not have CCTs anymore. All members of the CCT are either employed in FWD CCTS (Wardom), Aft CCTS (MSE/CSE Offices) or in SB. This loss will probably only amount to 4 members of the CCT gone, 2 for each section. No big deal. FWD SB can still have the Canteen manager with their keys for Spirit and Tobacco stores.

It's almost like stewards do a lot of things other than sculpt butter or manage the canteen, and there is a good reason why they are still actively employed on all the CPFs. The ships were designed to run with people doing those functions, and their training is set up around what they need to do for the ship to fight through battle damage. If you ignore the BS stereotypes of what people think they do, and look at what they actually do as part of the ships fighting organization, they haven't been replaced because there is no other trade that does bits and pieces of a lot of things that they do.

CSC will have the same space limitations requiring multiple steam lines and meal areas for the throughput, and similar CCT and other internal battle requirements so will also have to figure out who is going to do it on future warships.

Our warships and internal battle doctrine are built around people doing these specific tasks so this just makes no sense to me. Using AOPS as a justification just shows that the decision was made without looking at the completely different contexts between a non-combatant and a combatant, which is both stupid, and fundamentally a bit scary that someone is looking for a one size fits all solution for a fleet that is made up of such a wide mix of ships.

I have addressed every point you bring up over and over again, and you continue to either disregard or ignore my first hand experience and expertise WRT the inner workings and establishment of a Log Dept. I wont go on about it any further. My counsel has been given.

What's really going to happen is someone realizes we still need someone to do the basic stuff stewards are doing now, so they will tag someone with it as an out of core trade role, then scramble around to give random people first aid training to fill the CCT roles, and generally make a mess out of it. This is even less organized then when the FFs left the fleet, which we probably won't really recover from until 2030, if we can get the 'structural' specialization for the Martechs sorted out, with a lot of work arounds to make sure safety critical checks get done properly by people that have the right experience in the interim..

I say again...

I have addressed every point you bring up over and over again, and you continue to either disregard or ignore my first hand experience and expertise WRT the inner workings and establishment of a Log Dept. I wont go on about it any further. My counsel has been given.

Lastly I have never claimed that STWs are some sort or servant class that sculpts butter and makes beds, others may have; but not me. I am very familiar and comfortable with their day to day jobs and their W&SB. They provided services, but those services can be better or equally done by other occupations.
 

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@Halifax Tar, not discounting your experience, but even 4 people per ship, with 8-10 CPFs up and running is 32-40 people that don't actually exist in other trades. I think the full remar is still 7 or 8, so really up to 60-70 positions in the fleet. That's the equivalent of an entire AOPs crew.

So maybe not a big deal looking at a single ship, but at a fleet level this is a non-trivial demand on other trades that are already unable to fill billets.

The RCN wants to keep all the MCDVs, sail the Oriole and have multiple CPFs at HR, all while somehow getting new ships with additional billets. We just don't have the people, and all the NAVGENs in the world won't magically create trained sailors. We're running the ships dangerously short handed as it is, and the FRE fire on any non-HR ship would have likely gone far worse (possibly aground).

In that context the RCN makes Pollyanna look like a pessimist when it comes to HR solutions, and so far our COAs on the existing HR shortages are hope nothing happens, and it will all work itself out. Driving around 30 year old warships that don't meet commercial safety standards with minimum crews is just rolling the dice at this point, and the cumulative impacts of the thousands of technical defects, HR shortages, training deficiences, missing equipment etc is a bit terrifying if you look at it together (so we just don't do that).
 

dapaterson

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Don't worry, if anything goes wrong we'll find a PO1 or Lt(N) to hang out to dry for the recurrent institutional failure.
 
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