Are We Raising a Generation of Helpless Kids?

[Smirnoff123]

The fact that you claim your generation had a much better grasp on the need for education, when you could still get a decent job without a highschool diploma.

This is no longer the case, and the current generation is well aware that education has never been as necessary as it is now.

 

[GnyHwy]

I'm going to jump in on this conversation because I have three of my own that are all elementary school age.  I will also go out on a limb, and against the grain from what is probably popular opinion of most posters in this thread.

I don't believe we challenge them enough.  My oldest does very well in school and is bored out of his skull.  The information that is processed by children today dwarfs anything that was available during our generation.  The learning approaches that we used are not sufficient anymore.  Sifting through 100lbs of books is old hat; hard books still have their value, but to keep today's kids interested, we need to liven things up.  I think a lot of teachers, particularly younger ones are keen to this, but unfortunately they don't have the power to change things.

It was our generation that created this technological monster all in the name of convenience and entertainment.  We cannot fault our kids for embracing it.  We should utilize it and pick up the pace.

 

[Pieman]

When I was young we had to walk in 10 feet of snow, up a hill, both ways, to school. These darn kids today....

 

[Maxadia]

The fact that you claim your generation had a much better grasp on the need for education, when you could still get a decent job without a highschool diploma.

Guess you either missed the fact that I grew up in PEI, not Ontario....or you grew up thinking that because you lived in Ontario, everywhere else must have been the same.  : Quite simply, we couldn't.

Trust me....late 80's, early 90's....you could staff your entire front line at Tim Horton's in the Atlantic Provinces with Bachelor degrees.  We definitely knew that we couldn't get decent jobs without a good education, because where we lived, we couldn't. 

As for challenging students - you're exactly correct.  When I was in school, we had two main streams...academic, and general.  Now, in some high schools across the country, we have 10-1, 10-2, 10-3, 10-4....and each one is a "lower class" of students.  We used to have to have an "academic" graduation certificate to get into any university....now, you can pick lower level courses than the -1 courses ("dash 1") and still get in.  So what do kids do?  Choose the lower level course in order to do less work, but not mess up chances to get into a university or college program. When I went, if you chose the General stream, you could only get into vocational school...no university at all.

Yes, things are different now.

 

[jparkin]

We used to have to have an "academic" graduation certificate to get into any university....now, you can pick lower level courses than the -1 courses ("dash 1") and still get in.  So what do kids do?  Choose the lower level course in order to do less work, but not mess up chances to get into a university or college program.

I have some friends who, even though they were fully capable and would have excelled, opted to not take the honours level courses in high school. Those same friends are with me now in first year, and the difference between them and those who got the hard work done early is palpable. It is up to students to motivate themselves and create their own success in my opinion. Just because you get into university, doesn't mean you will do well enough to stay there. I would argue that it is up to youth to take responsibility for their own educations and invest in their future, even if it means taking the hard road. :2c:

Jonathan

 

[ballz]

This is no longer the case, and the current generation is well aware that education has never been as necessary as it is now.

Unfortunately, they are under the impression that "education" means "university." They aren't really "aware," if anything I'd say they've got the blinders on.

We used to have to have an "academic" graduation certificate to get into any university....now, you can pick lower level courses than the -1 courses ("dash 1") and still get in.  So what do kids do?  Choose the lower level course in order to do less work, but not mess up chances to get into a university or college program. When I went, if you chose the General stream, you could only get into vocational school...no university at all.

Yes, things are different now.

And sadly, it's teachers and parents with this kind of attitude that's causing it and reinforcing it.

Not trying to "call you out" RDJP, I know you didn't mean it the way I am underlining it and making it sound... I just think it comes so natural to us to assume that vocational arts are a second-place prize for those that just aren't "cut out" for university.

I went to high school in Alberta, I've seen the English 30-1 and 30-2, and heard how "dash one is for people going to university" and "dash two is for people going into trades," same idea with Pure Math and Applied Math. Or how, "if you want to get into university you'll need "x" average... if you don't, you'll end up in the trades."

We really need to take university off it's pedestal, and it starts with parents and teachers...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The whole fallacy that you have to have a university education to get anywhere is one of the major reasons that this country is increasingly short of skilled trades people.

Most kids today think they can make $100K\ year with a degree in liberal arts and languish selling lattes at Starbucks, while the very few, really smart ones take three years at college and three years apprenticeship, working with their hands, ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.

 

[Journeyman]

...ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.

As well as having a skill to barter -- there's a whole tax-free sub-economy of people trading marketable skills/chores.


Sorry kids, it doesn't matter what your Marxist Labour history prof (who's never seen a callus or blister in his life) tells you, you're not likely to get someone to upgrade your kitchen plumbing in exchange for a rivetting paper on Foucault's economic theories.

 

[Sadukar09]

The whole fallacy that you have to have a university education to get anywhere is one of the major reasons that this country is increasingly short of skilled trades people.

Most kids today think they can make $100K\ year with a degree in liberal arts and languish selling lattes at Starbucks, while the very few, really smart ones take three years at college and three years apprenticeship, working with their hands, ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.

This.

The education inflation is pretty annoying. Right now, a Bachelor's degree means a equivalent of high school diploma decades ago. The thing is, society raised us thinking higher education is extremely important. The downfall of that, is universities let just about anyone in that can pay. The things we learn in 1st or even 2nd year courses are almost a review of Grade 11/12. The papers we write? Maxed around 10 pages for 1st-2nd years. I was writing that for Grade 12 English.

Personal note: My parents don't believe me a plumber will make more money than a doctor soon.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I don't believe we challenge them enough.  My oldest does very well in school and is bored out of his skull.  The information that is processed by children today dwarfs anything that was available during our generation.  The learning approaches that we used are not sufficient anymore.  Sifting through 100lbs of books is old hat; hard books still have their value, but to keep today's kids interested, we need to liven things up.  I think a lot of teachers, particularly younger ones are keen to this, but unfortunately they don't have the power to change things.

Good point - how many "bad kids" are really "bored kids"?  Not ALL, mind you, but some.  I know 9D uses all sorts of ways to keep classes interesting - role playing, team work (and do they ever learn the concept of "coursemanship" like on military courses!), simulations, some short writing tasks (in fact, she gets picked on by some colleagues because she doesn't give enough essays or long-form writing assignments - and some students prefer the "two essays and one final exam" mode because they can procrastinate).  The keeners truly keen out, and the weiners are truly Oscar Meyer quality in their weiner-ness.

The whole fallacy that you have to have a university education to get anywhere is one of the major reasons that this country is increasingly short of skilled trades people.

Part of this is that more employers are using the degree as an easy "screen in" criterion.

Most kids today think they can make $100K\ year with a degree in liberal arts and languish selling lattes at Starbucks, while the very few, really smart ones take three years at college and three years apprenticeship, working with their hands, ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.

ZACKLY!!!!!  That's why it's so hard to find decent trade folk (at least here in northern Ontario, where a lot of trade folk are out west escaping closing paper mills).

As well as having a skill to barter -- there's a whole tax-free sub-economy of people trading marketable skills/chores.

ZACKLY x 2!!!

 

[RangerRay]

We really need to take university off it's pedestal, and it starts with parents and teachers...

:goodpost: 

I say that as a uni grad.  (A degree with little market value in this market  )

On another note, 9D teaches at a uni, and every day she pulls her hair out at the writing and critical thinking skills of her students.  I'm far from an English major, but the writing skills of these uni students is shocking.  I don't think I was ever that bad, even in elementary school!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

:goodpost: 

I say that as a uni grad.  (A degree with little market value in this market  )

On another note, 9D teaches at a uni, and every day she pulls her hair out at the writing and critical thinking skills of her students.  I'm far from an English major, but the writing skills of these uni students is shocking.  I don't think I was ever that bad, even in elementary school!

eg:

 

[Maxadia]

Not trying to "call you out" RDJP, I know you didn't mean it the way I am underlining it and making it sound... I just think it comes so natural to us to assume that vocational arts are a second-place prize for those that just aren't "cut out" for university.

No problem.  8)  They definately aren't second-rate - I was just stating that those were your options at the time.  And I agree that the thinking that they are second-rate comes naturally to most.

Now, students have many more options, and see that as meaning that they don't need to work as hard.  We do need smart people.  Unfortunately, by streaming students into four different streams of ability, it has allowed students to choose a level below where they should be, or even two.  It's a hard fight for us, as we can't keep parents from placing their students into a lower class....we can keep them out of a higher level class if the marks aren't there, but not the opposite.

One things we did this past month with my classes was to move some students who did NOT have the marks for a certain course, into one of my courses one level higher because we knew they had the ability to do the course work.  Otherwise, it's too easy for them, and then it's just behaviour problems all around.  By moving them up a level, they then end up in a class where they need to put in a little more effort, and do not have time to fool around.  Work ethic improves, and usually their mark improves too.  Most parents were behind the idea, once we told them we thought their student could do the work.

However, there are students out there with parents who can't listen to the whining about how difficult the course is, and let the child choose to work at a lower level.  And unfortunately, our school systems don't allow us to fail students as much as we should.

 

[Pusser]

The whole fallacy that you have to have a university education to get anywhere is one of the major reasons that this country is increasingly short of skilled trades people.

Most kids today think they can make $100K\ year with a degree in liberal arts and languish selling lattes at Starbucks, while the very few, really smart ones take three years at college and three years apprenticeship, working with their hands, ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.

Ummm.  I have a liberal arts degree (History) and I make over $100K/year....  I joined the Navy! ;D

However, I still can't afford to hire tradespeople, which is why I do all my home maintenance/renovation myself (but I took shop in junior high school as well).  Many folks today can't even do that, which is also a problem and the existing tradespeople are certainly taking advantage of it.  It's kind of funny to watch all the trades vans in my neighbours' driveways.  They barely even change their own light bulbs and often ask me for advice. 

The last tradesperson I asked for a quote estimated over $1000 (with a military discount) to install an old sink (that I provided) in a counter (that I built), in an unfinished basement workshop, next to a drain and with a water supply only 10' away.  He seemed rather shocked when I explained that I would go without the sink altogether rather than pay that.  I ended up having a contractor friend do it for $300.  I would have done it myself if I didn't suck at plumbing (I just get wet).  My wife and I refer to this as getting the "Country Club quote."

 

[ballz]

On another note, 9D teaches at a uni, and every day she pulls her hair out at the writing and critical thinking skills of her students.  I'm far from an English major, but the writing skills of these uni students is shocking.  I don't think I was ever that bad, even in elementary school!

I truly don't believe anything will ever top the fact that I've come across two fourth-year business students at MUN that don't know the difference between profit and revenue.

The only thing I've seen that's come close so far was one of the business profs (with a PhD from U of Waterloo) that didn't know what the Auto Pact is...

 

[Occam]

The last tradesperson I asked for a quote estimated over $1000 (with a military discount) to install an old sink (that I provided) in a counter (that I built), in an unfinished basement workshop, next to a drain and with a water supply only 10' away.  He seemed rather shocked when I explained that I would go without the sink altogether rather than pay that.  I ended up having a contractor friend do it for $300.  I would have done it myself if I didn't suck at plumbing (I just get wet).  My wife and I refer to this as getting the "Country Club quote."

You need only tune into "Holmes Inspection" or "Holmes on Homes" to see what paying someone $300 for a job will get you, vice paying someone who knows the rules inside out, gets all the right permits and has all the right tools $1000 for the same job.  You get what you pay for, in most cases.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I truly don't believe anything will ever top the fact that I've come across two fourth-year business students at MUN that don't know the difference between profit and revenue.

Or 3rd year poli sci students spelling frigate "friggit" in a paper and a presentation.....

 

[Maxadia]

I truly don't believe anything will ever top the fact that I've come across two fourth-year business students at MUN that don't know the difference between profit and revenue.

The only thing I've seen that's come close so far was one of the business profs (with a PhD from U of Waterloo) that didn't know what the Auto Pact is...

How about the fact that we now have students in EDUCATION programs that are requiring READERS and SCRIBES for their classwork?

 

[George Wallace]

..............  And unfortunately, our school systems don't allow us to fail students as much as we should.

This is not systemic only to the school systems.  We even see it happening within the CF.  Weak supervisors/managers/leaders have avoided counselling, disciplining, failing and/or Releasing "Administrative Burdens" or "problem children"; instead promoting and/or posting them to other units.  Our whole society seems to have forgotten how to have the courage to say "NO".

Look at our Recruiting Threads, again, to see how many feel entitled to join the CF, even though they may not/never meet the universality of service.

 

[Maxadia]

Very true.  One of the reasons I left retail management and returned to teaching was that the idot who threatened to come down to the store with a gun and blow everyone away was given a two week suspension - on paper only - by the IR because it might be an undue hardship to him economically.

I went to our convention next week and listened to our outgoing President state that we weren't going to mollycoddle people who made threats like that - "NO! Fire their ass on the spot!"

Unfortunately, he was the OUTGOING president....I was pleased to be leaving the week after him.


We give in way to much in society today.  That's not the same as it has always been.